Sleepers trains from London to Europe.

[StephenHunter]

one issue with any UK to EU sleeper would be just how complex loco running would be even for a simple point to point

lets take a glasgow to amsterdam sleeper as a extreme example, first would need a AWS/TPWS loco for the WCML then would need another for the TVM of HS1 (cant realiticly use a 92 for both as i dont belive any still have both and trying to path a 80mph loco during afternoon peak would not be a good idea)

once in france would need yet another loco for KVB lines to Belgian ECTS/TBL lines and finally another for the let between Brussels and Amsterdam as i dont think any single locomotive has both French KVB and Dutch ATB

so in the end this would be a 4 loco trip (BR class 90, BR class 92, SNCB class 18, NS class 186)

and this doesnt even count how complex it would be if you wanted to go ECML-transpenines-WCML for maxamimum population capture (Glasgow-Edinburgh-Newcastle-York-Leeds-Manchester-Birmingham)

That thing I mentioned about the 193s working from Amsterdam to Vienna? That's actually starting on 23/24 January. A Vectron could be fitted with systems to get it to St Pancras at least - loading gauge is an issue from there, so you would need a 92. There are no 90s left in sleeper service.

 

[popeter45]

On this point - do you know when HS Lines on the continent tend to shut overnight, and what the Tunnel does overnight?

the tunnel doesnt close at night (either does south end of HS1 i belive?) for freight

That thing I mentioned about the 193s working from Amsterdam to Vienna? That's actually starting on 23/24 January. A Vectron could be fitted with systems to get it to St Pancras at least - loading gauge is an issue from there, so you would need a 92. There are no 90s left in sleeper service.

vectron doesnt have clerences for France yet and prob wont unless SNCF have the need for one

 

[zwk500]

the tunnel doesnt close at night (either does south end of HS1 i belive?) for freight

Didn't think it did but if it goes down to single line operation then reduced capacity will be another problem to overcome.

 

[Peterthegreat]

the tunnel doesnt close at night (either does south end of HS1 i belive?) for freight


vectron doesnt have clerences for France yet and prob wont unless SNCF have the need for one

The high speed lines in France (and Belgium?) are normally closed overnight. In the tunnel one of the six intervals is normally unavailable and single line working is in operation.

 

[popeter45]

A couple of things here.

1) if the train’s London terminus is St Pancras international, it will need KVB, as that is what is in the St P platforms.

2) whilst everyone is assuming St P would be the terminus (for obvious reasons), there may not be paths at the time of day required, and later in the evening HS1 is shut. Probably able to find a solution, but by no means straight forward.

both valid points than episise how complex it would all be, maybe a special subgroup of the class 93 or similar but such a specalised pool for such a small operation wouldnt make sence

with 2) their are 2 options, either southen route along third rail and a class 92 but i dont think any can do that any more, other still uses HS1 but takes NLL/GOBLIN till barking like most frieght does

The high speed lines in France (and Belgium?) are normally closed overnight. In the tunnel one of the six intervals is normally unavailable and single line working is in operation.

no need for high speed after the tunnel, its a sleeper after all so slower the better and the tunnel has direct links to classic network via calais

 

[Peterthegreat]

both valid points than episise how complex it would all be, maybe a special subgroup of the class 93 or similar but such a specalised pool for such a small operation wouldnt make sence

with 2) their are 2 options, either southen route along third rail and a class 92 but i dont think any can do that any more, other still uses HS1 but takes NLL/GOBLIN till barking like most frieght does


no need for high speed after the tunnel, its a sleeper after all so slower the better and the tunnel has direct links to classic network via calais

Indeed. I was replying to an earlier post asking the question. In fact the original proposals for European Night Services was for the classic lines on the continent to be used. Primarily because under normal circumstances only TGVs were permitted on the French High Speed lines.

 

[DanielB]

Using classic lines would also be advisable for the hypothetic service to Amsterdam mentioned earlier in this thread. The high speed line in the Netherlands has its curves built for 300 km/h.
In the current IC direct service at 160 km/h it's already noticeable how far the train tilts, but in a sleeper one might fall out of bed because of that.

 

[StephenHunter]

Using classic lines would also be advisable for the hypothetic service to Amsterdam mentioned earlier in this thread. The high speed line in the Netherlands has its curves built for 300 km/h.
In the current IC direct service at 160 km/h it's already noticeable how far the train tilts, but in a sleeper one might fall out of bed because of that.

Most beds on those are aligned left to right. They also have nets or belts on the upper bunks as a measure against that.

 

[duesselmartin]

Hypothetically High speed sleepers could be interesting. London to Rome in a night anyone?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Hypothetically High speed sleepers could be interesting. London to Rome in a night anyone?

Not as hypothetical as you might think! SNCF were certainly considering these in the early 90s.

 

[popeter45]

Not as hypothetical as you might think! SNCF were certainly considering these in the early 90s.

China do it as well

 

[43096]

one issue with any UK to EU sleeper would be just how complex loco running would be even for a simple point to point

lets take a glasgow to amsterdam sleeper as a extreme example, first would need a AWS/TPWS loco for the WCML then would need another for the TVM of HS1 (cant realiticly use a 92 for both as i dont belive any still have both and trying to path a 80mph loco during afternoon peak would not be a good idea)

There are 92s with both AWS/TPWS and TVM430, so you could run throughout from Glasgow through the Tunnel to Frethun.

once in france would need yet another loco for KVB lines to Belgian ECTS/TBL lines and finally another for the let between Brussels and Amsterdam as i dont think any single locomotive has both French KVB and Dutch ATB

so in the end this would be a 4 loco trip (BR class 90, BR class 92, SNCB class 18, NS class 186)

Are the SNCB 18s passed for France yet? Might need a TRAXX MS instead, but believe you are correct that there's no locos with France and Netherlands capability currently, so you'd need to switch from a D/B/F TRAXX to a D/A/B/NL variant somewhere in Belgium.

 

[Bald Rick]

On this point - do you know when HS Lines on the continent tend to shut overnight, and what the Tunnel does overnight?

the LGVs are normally closed for at least 6 hours overnight, typically by 23h30 at the latest.

the tunnel is very rarely fully closed for planned works.

 

[AdamWW]

Sleepers by their nature have a very low occupancy per vehicle hence a high energy consumption per head. As yet we do not have surplus electricity.

Sleepers, very much so. Couchettes not so much. There are still quite a few seated coaches around in Europe with 6 seats per compartment in second.

(Didn't SNCF have some "couchettes" at one point where they crammed 8 people into a compartment with contoured "beds", and didn't charge a supplement? Not sure I'd fancy that though).

Also there must be a pretty large energy penalty for high speed trains, so running sleepers at "conventional" speeds must go at least some way to making up for the reduced capacity.

And obviously this doesn't work so well in todays multiple unit railway, but couchette coaches could be used for day travel enabling the rolling stock to be used during the day as well rather than just sitting around waiting for the evening.

 

[Snow1964]

Quite a bit on new services and sleepers in this article
Including long distance services from Paris

Want to explore Europe by train? 2024 routes, prices and journey times

Go to sleep in one country and wake up in another thanks to Nightjet, European Sleeper, Midnight Trains and other new and modern train companies.

www.euronews.com

Nothing to UK presumably due to being outside Schengen which complicates things

 

[daodao]

Quite a bit on new services and sleepers in this article
Including long distance services from Paris

Want to explore Europe by train? 2024 routes, prices and journey times

Go to sleep in one country and wake up in another thanks to Nightjet, European Sleeper, Midnight Trains and other new and modern train companies.

www.euronews.com

Nothing to UK presumably due to being outside Schengen which complicates things

Irrespective of Schengen, Great Britain is outwith mainland Europe, and running sleeper services via the Channel Tunnel is problematic. The British loading gauge is also restrictive, reducing the number of passengers who can be transported in sleeping cars.

Also. do sleeper services really reduce the carbon footprint overall compared to travelling by Ryanair/Wizzair? I accept that daytime passenger rail services would probably do so on journeys of less than 500 km.

 

[StephenHunter]

There is also a British gauge sleeper design that could be easily modified - the CAF Mark 5. The Nightstar stock must have got extended steps or something like that too.

 

[zwk500]

There is also a British gauge sleeper design that could be easily modified - the CAF Mark 5.

Tbh you'd just run sleepers on HS1 using UIC gauge stock.

The Nightstar stock must have got extended steps or something like that too.

It's possible the stepping distance wasn't considered a problem in the 1990s, but also given the variety of platform heights between UK, France, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands etc you would have likely needed something anyway.

 

[rheingold103]

There is also a British gauge sleeper design that could be easily modified - the CAF Mark 5. The Nightstar stock must have got extended steps or something like that too.

Nightstar stock did indeed have extendable steps whose deployment configuration was determined by the loco attached.