smacking

[muz379]

If they told me to "**** off" I'd just give them more work. If they didn't do that, I'd just repeatedly embarrass them in front of the class and keep doing it. The easiest way to engage with a kid is on their level, and once you do that you actually have a lot more power over them as they realise that they don't have anything on you that they can do better than you. If I'd hit them it wouldn't have changed a thing, as I saw with some other teachers.

Can that not have the same effect as smacking though in that the kids aren't behaving because they are being engaged with but just because they are scared of being embarrassed in front of their peers ? and that can have just as lasting an impact in terms of perception and willingness to comply with authority in later life .

When I was at school not that long ago there where two teachers who everybody knew would embarrass you in front of your whole class/year group / school . One of them was my maths teacher whilst I was in year 11 . He used to bring year 8 and 9 pupils who had been misbehaving and completely embarrass them in front of us . At the time we all though it was funny but thinking back that was effectively involving us in the punishment of another pupil and I dont think that is right either . Punishment should be between the person who has done the wrongdoing and the source of authority it should not be a spectator sport .It didn't really work either because many of the kids who he would bring and embarrass still ended up being suspended from school or in an isolated learning environment .

Yes you aren't using your physical superior strength to inflict pain on another pupil but you are using your superior intelligence and cognitive ability to inflict embarrassment .

 

[TheKnightWho]

Can that not have the same effect as smacking though in that the kids aren't behaving because they are being engaged with but just because they are scared of being embarrassed in front of their peers ? and that can have just as lasting an impact in terms of perception and willingness to comply with authority in later life .

When I was at school not that long ago there where two teachers who everybody knew would embarrass you in front of your whole class/year group / school . One of them was my maths teacher whilst I was in year 11 . He used to bring year 8 and 9 pupils who had been misbehaving and completely embarrass them in front of us . At the time we all though it was funny but thinking back that was effectively involving us in the punishment of another pupil and I dont think that is right either . Punishment should be between the person who has done the wrongdoing and the source of authority it should not be a spectator sport .It didn't really work either because many of the kids who he would bring and embarrass still ended up being suspended from school or in an isolated learning environment .

Yes you aren't using your physical superior strength to inflict pain on another pupil but you are using your superior intelligence and cognitive ability to inflict embarrassment .

You don't take them out of class and mock them in front of a bunch of older kids! That's not what I'm getting at, and that sounds almost worse than hitting the kids.

What I mean is that you do things like take the p*** out of what they say (not in a mean way, but in a way that shows it's ridiculous), or you generally make them realise that how they're behaving is stupid and childish. You engage them on a level that they're familiar with and beat them at their own game; it's not that hard once you get used to it.

 

[muz379]

You don't take them out of class and mock them in front of a bunch of older kids! That's not what I'm getting at, and that sounds almost worse than hitting the kids.

What I mean is that you do things like take the p*** out of what they say (not in a mean way, but in a way that shows it's ridiculous), or you generally make them realise that how they're behaving is stupid and childish. You engage them on a level that they're familiar with and beat them at their own game; it's not that hard once you get used to it.

Even doing it to a child in front of a group of kids their own age is just as bad in my view .

At an age when they are particularly anxious of what their peers think getting all their peers to laugh at them is just as cruel . What if you have a kid who is "playing up" because they are getting bullied . Getting their peers to laugh at them is certainly not going to improve matters . It might get them to shut up whilst they are in your classroom yes but it is a short term fix and out in the playground and further afield it is going to make their life even worse .

 

[TheKnightWho]

Even doing it to a child in front of a group of kids their own age is just as bad in my view .

At an age when they are particularly anxious of what their peers think getting all their peers to laugh at them is just as cruel . What if you have a kid who is "playing up" because they are getting bullied . Getting their peers to laugh at them is certainly not going to improve matters . It might get them to shut up whilst they are in your classroom yes but it is a short term fix and out in the playground and further afield it is going to make their life even worse .

Then it is your duty as a teacher to spot things like that. Hitting them in front of their peers won't achieve anything, and if you do it out of sight everyone will still find out anyway. I don't see how smacking is any better.

You have to make a judgement call at the time, but what I found was that it's a learning experience for them to understand why certain behaviour is selfish, immature or childish; it's not a learning experience to hit them when they disobey me, and frankly that just embarrasses them and makes them resent you. You don't mock a bullied kid, but then you have to analyse a situation to see what's going on and understand the power dynamics involved.

 

[muz379]

Then it is your duty as a teacher to spot things like that. Hitting them in front of their peers won't achieve anything, and if you do it out of sight everyone will still find out anyway. I don't see how smacking is any better.

You have to make a judgement call at the time, but what I found was that it's a learning experience for them to understand why certain behaviour is selfish, immature or childish; it's not a learning experience to hit them when they disobey me, and frankly that just embarrasses them and makes them resent you. You don't mock a bullied kid, but then you have to analyse a situation to see what's going on and understand the power dynamics involved.

Im not saying smacking them in front of their peers or behind closed doors is any better . Ive not once in this thread condoned the use of that method of punishment in schools .

However Im pointing out that as someone who thinks smacking is wrong I find it surprising you feel other such simplistic methods such as embarrassing kids is acceptable .

My perception from being at school is just as some kids would have behaved in the days of the cane because they fear a physical punishment , some kids will behave because they fear being embarrassed in front of their mates .

There are judgement calls to be made however is there not the risk that you will make the wrong judgement call and make a situation gravely worse .

I personally think one of the big behavior problems in school is down to the one size fits all national curriculum . Getting kids who would much rather be taking things apart/breaking them and then learning how to fix them and sitting them in a classroom and getting them to recite Shakespeare is a waste of time . Just like getting kids who would much rather be sat in a room in silence reading Shakespeare or some other literature to make something out of wood/metal/plastic is also a waste of time .

 

[TheKnightWho]

Im not saying smacking them in front of their peers or behind closed doors is any better . Ive not once in this thread condoned the use of that method of punishment in schools .

However Im pointing out that as someone who thinks smacking is wrong I find it surprising you feel other such simplistic methods such as embarrassing kids is acceptable .

My perception from being at school is just as some kids would have behaved in the days of the cane because they fear a physical punishment , some kids will behave because they fear being embarrassed in front of their mates .

There are judgement calls to be made however is there not the risk that you will make the wrong judgement call and make a situation gravely worse .

I personally think one of the big behavior problems in school is down to the one size fits all national curriculum . Getting kids who would much rather be taking things apart/breaking them and then learning how to fix them and sitting them in a classroom and getting them to recite Shakespeare is a waste of time . Just like getting kids who would much rather be sat in a room in silence reading Shakespeare or some other literature to make something out of wood/metal/plastic is also a waste of time .

There has to be some degree of punishment for kids in school, as you need a way to make them understand that the real-world doesn't tolerate certain types of behaviour. You obviously want to understand your kids and see why they behave in the ways that they do, but that only works to a certain point. The issue about embarrassing them is not mercilessly mocking them in front of their peers, which would be absolutely unacceptable; it's done in a way that is relatively light-hearted and makes them understand that actually you're on their side and want what's good for them, but also shows them that you're better than them at their own game than they are. So long as you aren't targetting one or two kids you can generally have a very positive effect on the class with it.

If you counter that with a strict attitude that you can draw out when necessary, they realise that the choice is between an easy-going, relatively fun teacher or a strict, boring and annoying teacher, and that it's their power to choose. That's the key thing here: you keep discipline in your class by punishing them when necessary, but you simply provide them with an incentive to not act up in the first place. That is absolutely doable with 99% of kids.

Now of course some right-wing people here will bring up cases of teachers being stabbed or abused in the classroom. Frankly, some of those kids need mental help, and a "good caning" or whatever wouldn't change a jot. If you're a kid and you think seriously injuring your teacher is a good idea then your problems are a lot bigger than what a school can normally deal with.

 

[Antman]

Stats are useful except when they prove what you want them to prove, apparently.

You can abuse them, but there are well known methods for stopping people doing exactly that. Anyone who turns around and dismisses all statistics because of what you've said almost certainly just doesn't like the fact that real-world evidence is against them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Or maybe you just can't accept that your way of dealing with things is simplistic, rubbish and just doesn't work in the long term. Violence breeds violence, and not all of us want to live in the stone age thank you very much.

I do what works, not what my base impulse tells me to do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This. I taught in China where corporal punishment was (and is) used quite a lot. Taking their phones off them was by far the easiest solution. They might have hated you for it, but frankly the solution was to engage them with more interesting activity. Chinese kids are even more prone to spend their whole time on their phones, so this was a major issue.

If they told me to "**** off" I'd just give them more work. If they didn't do that, I'd just repeatedly embarrass them in front of the class and keep doing it. The easiest way to engage with a kid is on their level, and once you do that you actually have a lot more power over them as they realise that they don't have anything on you that they can do better than you. If I'd hit them it wouldn't have changed a thing, as I saw with some other teachers.


And if you're going to say that "Chinese kids are obviously all better behaved", then I'll have you know that a) some brought alcohol to school as though it was normal, b) did fight, c) did answer back etc. They were exactly the same once they'd got over the fact you were a weird foreigner, and this was supposedly an extremely good school.

So you'll excuse me if I think my personal experience trumps yours, Antman. The statistics and experience as a teacher are both on my side here.

Personally I don't think the youth of today are any worse behaved than my generation or those that came before. When things do go wrong you just hear about it more thanks to 24 hour rolling tv news coverage, the internet and sensationalism.

For anyone who thinks things are much worse now check out the old TV play from the 70's "Our Day Out". It is based on things Willy Russell saw in his time teaching at a school in a not great area of Liverpool. Keep in mind that this will have been very much sanitised so it could be shown on the BBC.

That is simply not true and it is no good blaming "sensationalism", I mean how dare the media report what is actually going on in schools? And yes I have heard teachers saying the same and worse.

 

[TheKnightWho]

That is simply not true and it is no good blaming "sensationalism", I mean how dare the media report what is actually going on in schools? And yes I have heard teachers saying the same and worse.

So your reply to a large body of personal experience (something you value so highly!) is "that's not true"?

Are you trolling? I can only think that you have no idea how teaching works or how to discipline kids, and that you're just refusing to admit that you can't come up with anything better than "hit them".

Some of us know what we're doing and can run a highly successful classroom even with difficult kids. Some of us (you) seem to want to go back to the Victorian era, on the other hand.

It's a well-known fact that news that says the world is ending and everything is terrible sells well. The media have (repeatedly) got in trouble for overblowing things, and in fact it's something they're extremely famous for; they do it all the time with rail stories. When it's something you agree with them about though, it's f*** off people with personal experience, the media are obviously correct. It's so hypocritical I could laugh.

 

[Antman]

Stats are useful except when they prove what you want them to prove, apparently.

You can abuse them, but there are well known methods for stopping people doing exactly that. Anyone who turns around and dismisses all statistics because of what you've said almost certainly just doesn't like the fact that real-world evidence is against them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Or maybe you just can't accept that your way of dealing with things is simplistic, rubbish and just doesn't work in the long term. Violence breeds violence, and not all of us want to live in the stone age thank you very much.

I do what works, not what my base impulse tells me to do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This. I taught in China where corporal punishment was (and is) used quite a lot. Taking their phones off them was by far the easiest solution. They might have hated you for it, but frankly the solution was to engage them with more interesting activity. Chinese kids are even more prone to spend their whole time on their phones, so this was a major issue.

If they told me to "**** off" I'd just give them more work. If they didn't do that, I'd just repeatedly embarrass them in front of the class and keep doing it. The easiest way to engage with a kid is on their level, and once you do that you actually have a lot more power over them as they realise that they don't have anything on you that they can do better than you. If I'd hit them it wouldn't have changed a thing, as I saw with some other teachers.


And if you're going to say that "Chinese kids are obviously all better behaved", then I'll have you know that a) some brought alcohol to school as though it was normal, b) did fight, c) did answer back etc. They were exactly the same once they'd got over the fact you were a weird foreigner, and this was supposedly an extremely good school.

So you'll excuse me if I think my personal experience trumps yours, Antman. The statistics and experience as a teacher are both on my side here.

If all you can do is dismiss anything that you didn't agree with as rubbish then any further debate is pointless

 

[TheKnightWho]

If all you can do is dismiss anything that you didn't agree with as rubbish then any further debate is pointless

Literally read your last post. That's exactly what you did.

Except, you know, I provided a quite extensive post explaining exactly why I think what you're saying is rubbish. All you've done is cry "the media, the media!" and talk about what is "obviously" true. If a non-expert thinks something is "obvious" and the industry disagrees with them then they're probably wrong.

Odds on that you stopped reading at that point to write that post, without reading anything else I said?

 

[Antman]

So your reply to a large body of personal experience (something you value so highly!) is "that's not true"?

Are you trolling? I can only think that you have no idea how teaching works or how to discipline kids, and that you're just refusing to admit that you can't come up with anything better than "hit them".

Some of us know what we're doing and can run a highly successful classroom even with difficult kids. Some of us (you) seem to want to go back to the Victorian era, on the other hand.

It's a well-known fact that news that says the world is ending and everything is terrible sells well. The media have (repeatedly) got in trouble for overblowing things, and in fact it's something they're extremely famous for; they do it all the time with rail stories. When it's something you agree with them about though, it's f*** off people with personal experience, the media are obviously correct. It's so hypocritical I could laugh.

Knives, police officers, metal detectors in schools suggest otherwise................oh but don't tell me let guess...........it's just the media making it up:roll:

 

[TheKnightWho]

Knives, police officers, metal detectors in schools suggest otherwise................oh but don't tell me let guess...........it's just the media making it up:roll:

Yeah, because those have worked right? I thought it was all getting worse!

Also, sorry, weren't you the one saying that you could manipulate statistics to make them say anything you like? Maybe the media has an incentive to make it sound like everything is terrible! But obviously that only occurs to you when we're dealing with trains, it seems.

Why can't you just accept that your view is antiquated and doesn't work, as the vast majority of people who actually have to run classrooms on a daily basis actually think this?

 

[Antman]

This is always going to be a controversial subject.

When I was at school in the 1960s and 1970s we were still punished, by having to write out large quantities of lines, which I hated, they were very tedious, or do detentions, or perhaps get the slipper or cane.

I heard of someone recently complaining that he had been given detention, but it was just for 10 minutes, for more serious matters they have to stay back for 20 minutes.

Neither of those to me seem very long. The minimum length of detention in our school was 30 minutes, but more usual was one or two hours, even longer sometimes, or worse still was a Saturday morning detention. We had to either write lines, do hard maths, (without calculators), or do a very long essay about why we were in detention. Sometimes too we had to run around our very large playing fields several times.

Just knowing these methods were available usually acted as a deterrent.

Oh yes I remember having to do lines, the slipper would probably have been preferable as at least it was over and done with a lot quicker.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah, because those have worked right? I thought it was all getting worse!

Also, sorry, weren't you the one saying that you could manipulate statistics to make them say anything you like? Maybe the media has an incentive to make it sound like everything is terrible! But obviously that only occurs to you when we're dealing with trains, it seems.

Why can't you just accept that your view is antiquated and doesn't work, as the vast majority of people who actually have to run classrooms on a daily basis actually think?

FYI I do know people who have to deal with kids on a daily basis, their views are just a tad more realistic than yours

 

[TheKnightWho]

Oh yes I remember having to do lines, the slipper would probably have been preferable as at least it was over and done with a lot quicker.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


FYI I do know people who have to deal with kids on a daily basis, their views are just a tad more realistic than yours

Except the vast majority of teachers would be horrified at the thought of bringing back corporal punishment.

You saying your views are more "realistic" doesn't mean that you're not living in a dream world. I have been a teacher and I've seen what works: your method doesn't (other teachers where I taught used it to little success) and mine does; it's also a hell of a lot more enjoyable for everyone involved.

The simple fact is that the statistics, real-life experience and most of those who are in the industry are against you, and that's fact.

 

[Antman]

Except the vast majority of teachers would be horrified at the thought of bringing back corporal punishment.

You saying your views are more "realistic" doesn't mean that you're not living in a dream world. I have been a teacher and I've seen what works: your method doesn't (other teachers where I taught used it to little success) and mine does; it's also a hell of a lot more enjoyable for everyone involved.

The simple fact is that the statistics, real-life experience and most of those who are in the industry are against you, and that's fact.

Oh so now you speak for teachers as well as kids?

What you have posted is your opinion, not facts!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Oh so now you speak for teachers as well as kids?

What you have posted is your opinion, not facts!

As is yours. The difference is that mine is backed by (actual) personal experience, along with personal experience with a number of other teachers.

Oh, and there's all those statistics that you were disregarding in the thread earlier on, too, because they didn't support what you liked.

Why do you carry on like this? Can you just not accept that physical violence against kids just doesn't work?

 

[NSEFAN]

FYI I do know people who have to deal with kids on a daily basis, their views are just a tad more realistic than yours

I also know people who teach children on a daily basis, and their view is much closer to that of TheKnightWho than yours. One person's word against another doesn't really get us anywhere.

Nobody here is suggesting that schools should not have discipline, just that you don't need to cause physical harm in order to achieve it. You make it sound as if every child is becoming a violent thug but don't provide any evidence except for "well it's obvious, isn't it?". If certain kids are bringing knives to school then that's more indicative of parental and social problems over which the school has little control (although that doesn't stop politicians trying to make teachers into parents of every student!). The world has changed a lot in the past 50 years, so if there is a lack of discipline compared to the past then you can't simply pin it all on a lack of smacking.

 

[SS4]

Let's face it, we're not going to change Antman's mind. Perhaps if we smacked him a bit he'd bend to our point of view?

If that sounds like a Soviet style confession you'd be right

 

[Antman]

As is yours. The difference is that mine is backed by (actual) personal experience, along with personal experience with a number of other teachers.

Oh, and there's all those statistics that you were disregarding in the thread earlier on, too, because they didn't support what you liked.

Why do you carry on like this? Can you just not accept that physical violence against kids just doesn't work?

But physical violence (as you quite ridiculous call it) did work when it was in situ.

Bullying was virtually non existent at my school because any would be bully didn't fancy a dose of their own medicine from the headmaster. Oh well if you're happy to let the victims of bullying suffer because the schools are powerless to do anything about it that says it all.

I see no point in any further discussion.

 

[TheKnightWho]

But physical violence (as you quite ridiculous call it) did work when it was in situ.

Bullying was virtually non existent at my school because any would be bully didn't fancy a dose of their own medicine from the headmaster. Oh well if you're happy to let the victims of bullying suffer because the schools are powerless to do anything about it that says it all.

I see no point in any further discussion.

Smacking is physical violence. If it sounds bad to you, that's because it is bad. Changing something's name to make it seem more appealing is deceptive.

And your single experience doesn't mean bullying didn't exist. Bullying is not a new phenomenon, and you arguing that it is is frankly more hilarious than anything else you've said this thread. What you don't seem to understand is that literally nothing supports your point except what you've said. Encouraging a positive attitude in children not only stops bullying, but encourages them not to do it outside the classroom. What you don't seem to get is that bullying is possible to stop without hitting kids, and that it's possibly to get kids to behave well without trying to put the fear of god into them.

However, I don't think you want to admit that, as it's much easier for you to harp on about the fact that that smacking "obviously" stopped bullies. Except it didn't. They'd just hit you outside the school gate instead. On the other hand, encouraging good behaviour and a positive attitude towards each other (as well as a way of getting peers to effectively self-police in a controlled environment monitored by a teacher) produces a far more positive effect. The results speak for themselves in the statistics.

Except you don't want to listen to those, because they don't support what you want. Sensationalist news reports designed to make things sound bad to sell papers are obviously far more trustworthy :roll:

 

[SS4]

But physical violence (as you quite ridiculous call it) did work when it was in situ.

Bullying was virtually non existent at my school because any would be bully didn't fancy a dose of their own medicine from the headmaster. Oh well if you're happy to let the victims of bullying suffer because the schools are powerless to do anything about it that says it all.

I see no point in any further discussion.

Were there personal mobiles, sms and social networks at your school. How did you know virtually nobody was bullied? Did the headmaster publish figures every week?

As for your argument this time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybNI0KB1bg

As for schools in your day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXQR-cPXlmY

 

[Antman]

Smacking is physical violence. If it sounds bad to you, that's because it is bad. Changing something's name to make it seem more appealing is deceptive.

And your single experience doesn't mean bullying didn't exist. Bullying is not a new phenomenon, and you arguing that it is is frankly more hilarious than anything else you've said this thread. What you don't seem to understand is that literally nothing supports your point except what you've said. Encouraging a positive attitude in children not only stops bullying, but encourages them not to do it outside the classroom. What you don't seem to get is that bullying is possible to stop without hitting kids, and that it's possibly to get kids to behave well without trying to put the fear of god into them.

However, I don't think you want to admit that, as it's much easier for you to harp on about the fact that that smacking "obviously" stopped bullies. Except it didn't. They'd just hit you outside the school gate instead. On the other hand, encouraging good behaviour and a positive attitude towards each other (as well as a way of getting peers to effectively self-police in a controlled environment monitored by a teacher) produces a far more positive effect. The results speak for themselves in the statistics.

Except you don't want to listen to those, because they don't support what you want. Sensationalist news reports designed to make things sound bad to sell papers are obviously far more trustworthy :roll:

If you read my earlier posts you'd know I haven't bought a daily newspaper in years, since up to the minute news became readily available online...................so bang goes another one of your theories:roll:

Oh and just to clarify, anybody bullying outside the school gates still came under the schools jurisdiction........................and so another theory of yours bites the dust:roll:

Anyway as I said there is little point in further discussion.

 

[TheKnightWho]

If you read my earlier posts you'd know I haven't bought a daily newspaper in years, since up to the minute news became readily available online...................so bang goes another one of your theories:roll:

Oh and just to clarify, anybody bullying outside the school gates still came under the schools jurisdiction........................and so another theory of yours bites the dust:roll:

Anyway as I said there is little point in further discussion.

You know exaclty what I mean. The media, online or otherwise. That still doesn't change the fact that a lot of people do, and so the media's spin on things has an enormous influence on public opinion regardless of whether you personally read it or not.

And regarding bullying outside the school gates: your school is not every school, and that doesn't mean that no bullying happened when the teachers weren't around, which is a lot easier when you're not inside the school gate.

Quite simply, there's no point in further discussion because your views are wrong. That's the end of it.

 

[Antman]

You know exaclty what I mean. The media, online or otherwise. That still doesn't change the fact that a lot of people do, and so the media's spin on things has an enormous influence on public opinion regardless of whether you personally read it or not.

And regarding bullying outside the school gates: your school is not every school, and that doesn't mean that no bullying happened when the teachers weren't around, which is a lot easier when you're not inside the school gate.

Quite simply, there's no point in further discussion because your views are wrong. That's the end of it.

Point of order:

My views are neither right or wrong............they are just my views!!

 

[SS4]

If you read my earlier posts you'd know I haven't bought a daily newspaper in years, since up to the minute news became readily available online...................so bang goes another one of your theories:roll:

Oh and just to clarify, anybody bullying outside the school gates still came under the schools jurisdiction........................and so another theory of yours bites the dust:roll:

Anyway as I said there is little point in further discussion.

So teachers are entitled to look through students' phones because they feel like it. Even the police need a warrant IIRC.

I agree there is little point in further discussion because you're refusing to entertain the fact your views may be wrong not be universally shared. IDK why we even have this subforum

 

[TheKnightWho]

Point of order:

My views are neither right or wrong............they are just my views!!

Which can still be wrong! You're entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to call it a crock of s**t and provide evidence for that.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There were teachers at my school- an inner-city comp in Bradford- who always got grief and there were teachers who never got grief. None of them hit anyone. In fact the teacher we were all most frightened of- a Spanish teacher who must have been 4'10 and six stone dripping wet- never even had to raise her voice.

Bullying has always existed and will always exist. It existed when the headmaster had a strap and still exists now. It isn't getting worse, but it is getting more talked about. When I was at school, only fifteen years ago, it wasn't acknowledged by my school as a problem- "boys will be boys"- and I don't see how a strap above the door would have changed that. The idea that the headmaster would go into bat for a bullied child and thrash the bully is laughable. The idea that it would stop the bully is even more laughable- just like in prison, tattle-tales don't tend to thrive in secondary schools.

I've always found that the best punishment for any human, not just a child, is boredom. It's why detention is so disliked, it's why the naughty step/corner works with toddlers, and it is why solitary confinement is used in military prisons.

 

[Oswyntail]

....Bullying was virtually non existent at my school because any would be bully didn't fancy a dose of their own medicine from the headmaster......

I was bullied for several years at my school (in the 60's) despite the teachers and prefects using corporal punishment. Knives were frequently carried, as well. Corporal punishment did not work, as, for frequent fliers, it was simply met with bravado - I dare say they were inured to it by beatings from their parents, and the clips round the ears from the local bobbies. The teachers who had the best disciplined classes were the ones who didn't even threaten to use it, but treated the pupils as human beings.

 

[londiscape]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antman View Post
For goodness sake this is an online forum, not a court of law. You don't have to provide evidence to express an opinion.

Maybe the UK press are just reflecting public opinion?
-
Nah, the Press is a trend setter. Consider most of us only have 5 relatively accurate
sources of news: sight, smell, touch, hearing and taste all of which are very short range and unique (if the brain is playing tricks). Consequently anything out of range has to be taken from an external source, whether that is people you know, strangers or organisations.

The trouble is that not all of these can be treated equally and, in the case of companies, they're constrained by their need to keep their sources of funding intact as we've had a good demonstration of with HSBC and the Telegraph. It comes down to who you choose to believe and confirmation bias is a very real thing and one can choose from a wide range of sources.

If you're told the same thing over and over enough people will start to believe it. How else do you explain the dislike towards those on government allowances costing the taxpayer a bomb but even DWP figures say it's not that much.

This is a key point. Yes, the media is forever exaggerating situations in order to sell more content, so those outside the cities who consume said media might well believe that urban areas are entirely populated by gun-toting maniacal 15 year olds with an ISIL-level psychotic lust for murder and disembowelling.

But...

Using my 5 relatively accurate sources of news in that particular part of south London in which I spend the most time, on a daily basis I see appalling behaviour of youngsters, in which I include spitting (vile habit), use of foul and racist language (loudly), playing offensive music (loudly), bullying and skunk cannabis smoking (you can almost get high off the fumes outside any secondary school or college at lunchtime). Approximately weekly there will be actual fights of varying severity. And when I worked at an educational institution containing teenagers, any attempt at mild disciplinary instructions (eg. put on your ID, take down your hood, don't run in the corridor) was met with an almost universal "f**k off you c**t".

Is it "worse than ever"? I don't know, I didn't live in the city in the 80s or 90s, I lived in a country village with more sheep than people for company, but since I've been here for approx 10 years it certainly hasn't got any better.

It's clearly too late for child-style discipline once they get to this age and stage, suspect a complete lack of discipline during childhood coupled with full knowledge that they can get away with this kind of behaviour. However I wouldn't be averse to rounding them all up, sticking them in Aldershot for two years painting coal or peeling potatoes and having the insolence beaten out of them by a few no-nonsense drill sergeants. By the time they get to that age, that's probably the only "language" they'll respond to.

And, on a final note, judging by the behaviour of chavvy young parents who let their small children run absolute riot in public while they sit there messing about with facebook on their phone, I suspect the next generation won't be much better either.

 

[Antman]

So teachers are entitled to look through students' phones because they feel like it. Even the police need a warrant IIRC.

I agree there is little point in further discussion because you're refusing to entertain the fact your views may be wrong not be universally shared. IDK why we even have this subforum

Who on earth said anything about teachers looking through students phones?