SNCB and SNCF Voyageurs announce new Paris-Brussels link

[Dren Ahmeti]

SNCB et SNCF Voyageurs envisagent une nouvelle liaison Paris-Bruxelles

Afin d’offrir aux voyageurs un nouveau service entre Bruxelles et Paris, complémentaire aux relations existantes en grande vitesse, la SNCB et...

press.sncb.be

Translated from French:

In order to offer passengers a new service between Brussels and Paris that complements existing high-speed services, SNCB and SNCF Voyageurs are looking into the possibility of jointly creating a new regular passenger rail service using conventional high-speed services by the end of 2024. To this end, the two rail operators have notified their intention to operate this new service to their respective rail regulators.

This new alternative to road transport, with an intermediate journey time between road and high-speed rail, would offer passengers several round trips a day. The route would be operated with conventional trains (locomotives and passenger carriages) adapted to international traffic. The planned rail service would link Brussels-Midi and Paris-Nord.

A study is currently underway to confirm the feasibility of the project, with the aim of bringing it into service as soon as possible. The timetables and any intermediate stops also remain to be confirmed; the aim is to enable as many passengers as possible to make this international journey in the best possible time and at a competitive price.

More than ever, SNCB and SNCF Voyageurs are key players in the development of rail travel in Europe... following in the footsteps of Paris and Brussels, which were the first European capitals to be linked by train in 1846. This project for a new rail link is unquestionably in line with the ambitions for modal shift expressed by the two operators and the political authorities with a view to meeting their climate objectives. Passengers who are concerned about protecting the environment will have an additional low-carbon mobility option at their disposal.

 

[D6130]

I wonder which route such a service would use? Presumably this is designed to undercut Eurostar-Thalys price-wise.

 

[rvdborgt]

I wonder which route such a service would use? Presumably this is designed to undercut Eurostar-Thalys price-wise.

They could just use the original classic line. Non-stop trains used to do this journey in 2.5 hours, but even if it takes 3 hours with a few stops, I think there'd be enough users if the price is right.
IIRC Flixtrain had notified their intention for such a service pre-COVID. This is surely way to try and keep the market by the national operators.

 

[popeter45]

They could just use the original classic line. Non-stop trains used to do this journey in 2.5 hours, but even if it takes 3 hours with a few stops, I think there'd be enough users if the price is right.
IIRC Flixtrain had notified their intention for such a service pre-COVID. This is surely way to try and keep the market by the national operators.

yea i get the feeling if its just to stop flix all they will do is izy classic kind of service

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Could be via Arras, Lille Flandres (rev) and Tournai to tap that market too, or the traditional route via Aulnoye and Mons. An interesting trend - the 'classic' services to Nantes and Lyon seem to be a success.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

It will run via Mons. The path request was published by the French Rail Regulator yesterday which is probably why they published the press release today. It shows 5 train pairs per day, almost but not quite at 2 hourly intervals; cause, y'know, France - though I guess they might not use all of them.

 

[30907]

It will run via Mons. The path request was published by the French Rail Regulator yesterday which is probably why they published the press release today. It shows 5 train pairs per day, almost but not quite at 2 hourly intervals; cause, y'know, France - though I guess they might not use all of them.

Thanks. Didn't they try this pre-Covid? This sounds similar to the Ouigo Classique services within France - "en vitesse classique" - though the pic is of Belgian stock which is newer and cascaded from top-line services.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It will run via Mons. The path request was published by the French Rail Regulator yesterday which is probably why they published the press release today. It shows 5 train pairs per day, almost but not quite at 2 hourly intervals; cause, y'know, France - though I guess they might not use all of them.

What do they mean by "conventional high-speed services"?
SNCF/SNCB are hardly likely to want competition to their own Thalys/Eurostar services.
It just sounds like an attempt to improve services on another axis by offering through trains.

 

[Watershed]

This couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that Arriva have stated their intention to start an open access Amsterdam to Paris service, could it...

 

[Fragezeichnen]

What do they mean by "conventional high-speed services"?
SNCF/SNCB are hardly likely to want competition to their own Thalys/Eurostar services.
It just sounds like an attempt to improve services on another axis by offering through trains.

They've done precisely that before with IZY.

Thalys has not invested a single cent in fleet expansion since 1997, which compared to pretty much every other heavily used high speed service in Europe is highly unusual. They charge sky-high prices and still completely sell out every seat on every train on some days. It seems to me pretty clear that they prefer to be rent-seeking monopolists than make a true attempt to serve the market.

Since the existing offer is over-subscribed, it is safe to offer "fake competition" at lower prices without risking Thalys revenues, with the added benefit they can use existing surplus rolling stock, get in before potential competitors, and to provide a defence to complaints about the lack of real competition.

It's good of course that there will be another option on the route, but I'd rather see either Thalys service expansion to offer a full hourly service 7 days a week with half hourly in the weekday peaks, or a high speed competitor.

"Conventional high-speed" likely means express trains on conventional(i.e. not TGV-only) lines.

 

[DanielB]

This couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that Arriva have stated their intention to start an open access Amsterdam to Paris service, could it...

Arriva and Qbuzz even, so very likely SNCF/NMBS want to secure their share and not leave to many paths for competition.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Proposed timetable and rolling stock here: https://www.autorite-transports.fr/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/2023-003_paris-bruxelles_vnc.pdf

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

All SNCB rolling stock - I guess given the Aulnoye stop SNCF will just be providing train crew for the French section.

 

[PTR 444]

Are there currently any scheduled passenger services that cross the border between Aulnoye and Quevy? Apple maps shows no passenger service along that section, while the Wikipedia entry for Mons station mentions that the direct service between the two ended last December.

 

[rg177]

This will be a decent way for those on Interrail passes (or a budget) to get between the two cities on more of a whim.

Are there currently any scheduled passenger services that cross the border between Aulnoye and Quevy? Apple maps shows no passenger service along that section, while the Wikipedia entry for Mons station mentions that the direct service between the two ended last December.

Looking at this article here:

It was our colleagues from The Last Hour who announced it at the beginning of the month. The “international” connection between Mons and Aulnoye, in France, would disappear again.

So far, apart from the Thalys and TGV Inoui connections, there are only 4 possibilities to reach France by train:

• Antwerp-Mouscron-Lille;
• Tournai-Lille;
• Mons-Aulnoye;
• Namur-Charleroi-Maubeuge.

It can be seen that all of these connections concern Hainaut and its neighboring region, Hauts de France. There is nothing further to the east, in the Meuse basin and on the side of the Luxembourg Ardennes.

To access 25kV electrified French territory, SNCB has AM96 railcars dating from the 1990s, some of which are suitable for running at this voltage, the Belgian voltage being 3kV direct. It is this type of train that we encounter on the four cross-border links, although the SNCF also puts its dual-mode AGC railcars on the Lille-Tournai link.

It would appear that nothing has been running from Quevy across the border. The route via Charleroi is actually more frequent than I thought - roughly two-hourly.

 

[30907]

All SNCB rolling stock - I guess given the Aulnoye stop SNCF will just be providing train crew for the French section.

Good spot. Confirming that "conventional high-speed" is a mistranslation for "classic speed" ie 200k tops.

 

[rvdborgt]

Good spot. Confirming that "conventional high-speed" is a mistranslation for "classic speed" ie 200k tops.

The classic line on that route is 160, except around Mons and Aulnoye. Which means the souped up I10 carriages are not needed.

 

[Austriantrain]

SNCF as it lives and breathes… don’t do anything to improve your offer until competition looms, then go all in to quash it. What a shame.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

SNCF also proposing classic line services to Bordeaux and Rennes.

Transport Rail

(Translated from French)

As Corail coaches become available with the arrival of new equipment, SNCF Voyageurs plans to develop classic Ouigo services . After being coated in particularly conspicuous colours, these trains have therefore been operating since April 2022 on low-cost links, with 2 round trips per day, both to Lyon and to Nantes (one via Les Aubrais and Saint-Pierre-des- Corps, the other via Chartres and Le Mans).

In the latest notifications to ART , SNCF Voyageurs expressed its intention to develop these services to the west by restoring a Paris-Bordeaux link (which existed under the name Intercités Eco) and by creating a service to Rennes on the 2025 schedule.

As for the connections to Nantes and Lyon, Ouigo Classique wishes to initiate its trains at Paris Austerlitz (or Paris Bercy) and serve stations in the Paris suburbs. Thus, in the direction of Bordeaux, the trains would mark stops at Juvisy, Aubrais, Saint-Pierre-des-Corps, Futuroscope then Poitiers and Angoulême. Towards Rennes, you would have to take the Grande Ceinture , with a stop at Pont-de-Rungis (which at this time will have a connection with line 14 of the Paris metro), Massy-Palaiseau, Versailles Chantiers then Chartres, Le Mans and Laval.

 

[STINT47]

These classic line services are all ones that I would potentially use if they're at the right price.

I think they're is definitely a gap in the market and if done right they could be profitable. I do wonder if SNCF also sees this and is getting in first to stop an enterprising open access company moving in on their patch.

 

[BRX]

If only it were possible to have something similar brussels/london.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Well, the last cross-channel train ferry is still going, if anyone wants to bring it back...

 

[dutchflyer]

It will run via Mons. The path request was published by the French Rail Regulator yesterday which is probably why they published the press release today. It shows 5 train pairs per day, almost but not quite at 2 hourly intervals; cause, y'know, France - though I guess they might not use all of them.

Well, thats simply the old routing-and I suppose this is then an extension of the still existing about 2-hourly domestic line to St. Quentin-Maubeuge- Aulnoye, but, well!!, this onward line has just seen the very few then remaining local trains to Belgium withdrawn-in favour of a slightly enhanced busline.
Somehow I also kind of remember some years ago there was a similar attempt to tap the quite large low-fare market with an offer over this classic line.
In high season this will likely become the ALT routing for the may passholders etc who all try to avoid supplmts/mandatory REServations etc. Alltogether and with a smart timetable this route could even be slightly faster as the TGV to LIlle+hourly domestic NMBS trains to BRU.

 

[RT4038]

Well, thats simply the old routing-and I suppose this is then an extension of the still existing about 2-hourly domestic line to St. Quentin-Maubeuge- Aulnoye, but, well!!, this onward line has just seen the very few then remaining local trains to Belgium withdrawn-in favour of a slightly enhanced busline.
Somehow I also kind of remember some years ago there was a similar attempt to tap the quite large low-fare market with an offer over this classic line.
In high season this will likely become the ALT routing for the may passholders etc who all try to avoid supplmts/mandatory REServations etc. Alltogether and with a smart timetable this route could even be slightly faster as the TGV to LIlle+hourly domestic NMBS trains to BRU.

It is a bit of an assumption that the service won't be compulsory reservation/pass supplements, isn't it? The SNCF Intercities services are, so why wouldn't this be?

 

[rvdborgt]

Well, thats simply the old routing-and I suppose this is then an extension of the still existing about 2-hourly domestic line to St. Quentin-Maubeuge- Aulnoye,

No, because the new proposed service would skip Compiegne, St Quentin and Maubeuge. It's all in the published notification.

 

[AdamWW]

It is a bit of an assumption that the service won't be compulsory reservation/pass supplements, isn't it? The SNCF Intercities services are, so why wouldn't this be?

Do we even know it will operate as SNCF/SNCB services rather than a separate entity owned by the two companies with its own ticketing and possible not even accepting interrail?

 

[nw1]

If only it were possible to have something similar brussels/london.

Hard borders of course makes that all but impossible, such is the ridiculous British exceptionalism which has got only worse in recent years.

 

[MarcVD]

No, because the new proposed service would skip Compiegne, St Quentin and Maubeuge. It's all in the published notification.

The official notification also states that the list of stations that will be served is not final.
In any case, it could not serve Maubeuge as this in on the line to Jeumont and Charleroi, not on the line to Mons and Brussels. The two lines diverge a bit north of Aulnoye.