Snow Hill Lines Likely To Stay at 4tph Long Term

[BeijingDave]

These are suburban lines in our second largest city. They’re not sleepy halts.

I appreciate that, but does it really require 3 trains an hour outside peak hours?

 

[NewClee153]

The recast is, I believe, to actual 30 minute intervals.

What happens to the Birmingham to Stratford frequency, which is currently (more or less) clockface every 30 minutes? Admittedly, Birmingham to Whitlock’s End/Dorridge deserve a more clockface timetable, but there doesn’t seem to be any winners here

And it would have only been busy Stourbridge - Snow Hill in my experience (and as you say maybe just a few coaches) and probably the 4tph is fairly representative of off-peak demand.

I’d say 4tph off peak is very adequate for this side of the Snow Hill line. As a Smethwickian, I can’t complain at 8tph into the city centre

 

[newtownmgr]

Generally, the Snow Hill Lines weren't too unreliable.

I think the thing which effects reliability the most, is being staffed/serviced from 3 depots, which often limits Worcester trains from turning back trains to make up time, meaning more often Whitlock's/Dorridge services face the brunt of cancellations when heavy delays occur. The Cross City line being serviced solely from New Street seems to be able to react much better to issues.

The turn around times are generally tight as is, generally: Worcester: 2-7 mins, Kidderminster: 5 mins, Dorridge: 5 mins, Whitlock's: 8 mins, Startford: 3/20 mins (20 if via Dorridge).

At the moment Whitlock's/Dorridge - Worcester diagrams are self-contained (bounce between Whitlocks-Worcester-Whitlocks-Worcester all day) and I don't immediately see where recasting would introduce more timing if it is just shifting the times they run at without introducing more diagrams.


Yes - and GEML before it went to TfL Rail/Crossrail. I feel it should be closer to rapid frequencies (like trams) given it's an urban commuter line. It will be the same frequency as semi-express services such as Birmingham to Leicester & Nottingham (which I'm sure could be argued as being 5/6 coach voyager hourly rather than a turbostar twice hourly too).


It's a mixed bag of different aspects which make it less attractive from many levels:

I'll probably still use it, just I'll no longer plan to base my everyday life around the trains, seek jobs which don't require it for a commute (you might get a laugh from that as I'm just finishing university and perhaps unrealistically expect that I'll be able to seek the location of a job ).
With the current 40/20 gap - I'm much more inclined to run for a train if there's about to be a 40 minute gap (and thus set off my Asthma) whereas I use to relax knowing a train would be soon regardless. For me, 30 minutes would still be of a "I should run" threshold.
And then waiting longer if there's a cancellation.. or maybe I should just be grateful that I'd be meeting the 30 minute threshold more often!



Although, they've been training/recruiting enough drivers to reach 6tph again, so I wonder how they'll use the extra staff.

Cross city line is not serviced entirely by New St. Coventry & Wolverhampton depots also work cross city services

 

[Nova1]

I think 4tph south of Moor Street is probably fine really, the trains are not too busy even in the peaks especially recently. it would be nice if the run to Stratford-Upon-Avon could be increasted to 3tph though, these trains especially at weekends/evenings when weather is good do get very full

 

[Sprinter107]

They are busy in the peaks. Some full and standing. 2 per hour is fine off peak, but extras are needed in rush hour, especially on the Dorridge line.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I think 4tph south of Moor Street is probably fine really, the trains are not too busy even in the peaks especially recently. it would be nice if the run to Stratford-Upon-Avon could be increasted to 3tph though, these trains especially at weekends/evenings when weather is good do get very full

Indeed, wondering whether they could introduce some of the Stratford via Dorridge but back via North Warwick line as more people go from Moor St to Dorridge side, but then more people who travel to Stratford for work live on the Whitlock's End line.
Used to be a 6.30am train that did the opposite (6-car) that was heaving coming back via Dorridge

 

[Techniquest]

They are busy in the peaks. Some full and standing. 2 per hour is fine off peak, but extras are needed in rush hour, especially on the Dorridge line.

Agreed 100% with that. Even if it was just one extra train between 5 and 6, that would make some difference.

Although if it meant going back to the crazy mix of short formed trains on the busy services and long trains on the quiet ones, I'd not want to come back. Once upon a time, I suspect the train I did out of the Warwickshire terminus yesterday would have been just one 172/2, but it was a pair of them. That was the 1503 to Kidderminster, and until Birmingham it would have been fine as a solo 2-car train, just a lot fuller.

I don't miss the days of 2-car trains turning up on busy services, so if having a more consistent and memorable timetable with less trains than before means correct length trains on a regular basis, then I'd go for that. I'd like to see peak extras, but not to the detriment of capacity!

 

[centraltrains]

That was the 1503 to Kidderminster, and until Birmingham it would have been fine as a solo 2-car train, just a lot fuller.

Scheduled as 6 coaches in the May 2019 timetable, 3 in December 2018.

If the announcement is that all trains will be 5 coaches, I speculatively ponder within the larger quantity of 2-car 172s, if they would be available as 4-coach peak extras.

 

[Techniquest]

Scheduled as 6 coaches in the May 2019 timetable, 3 in December 2018.

If the announcement is that all trains will be 5 coaches, I speculatively ponder within the larger quantity of 2-car 172s, if they would be available as 4-coach peak extras.

Surely there is not even close enough /2s to pair up with a /3 and have enough to form at least 1 peak extra?

 

[centraltrains]

Surely there is not even close enough /2s to pair up with a /3 and have enough to form at least 1 peak extra?

I was thinking of the /0s and if the /1s end up staying. (My speculative ponder is likely a poor one without being aware maintenance requirements.)

 

[Starmill]

In another thread people are arguing for electrification. If Whitlocks End, Shirley, Yardley Wood, Hall Green and Spring Road cannot fill 3tph to Birmingham on six car sets then there's not going to be an overwhelmingly good case for electrification.

 

[The Planner]

In another thread people are arguing for electrification. If Whitlocks End, Shirley, Yardley Wood, Hall Green and Spring Road cannot fill 3tph to Birmingham on six car sets then there's not going to be an overwhelmingly good case for electrification.

Surely its a case of removing DMUs? Who can say what growth or usage there will be in 10-15 years, its not going to be static.

 

[Starmill]

Surely its a case of removing DMUs? Who can say what growth or usage there will be in 10-15 years, its not going to be static.

Indeed and you'd remove more DMUs by doing the work on other routes which are shorter or have more frequent services.

 

[Dyl518]

A little late update here. They delayed it. There’s no info out yet. As a person who used some of these lines, I think it’s fine as it is, there are frequent services with the only non-frequent services being from Bordesley (which in my opinion it should have) It would be fine to keep it as it is (why it says Hereford I don’t know since that or not even great Malvern now is connected)

 

[The Planner]

A little late update here. They delayed it. There’s no info out yet. As a person who used some of these lines, I think it’s fine as it is, there are frequent services with the only non-frequent services being from Bordesley (which in my opinion it should have) It would be fine to keep it as it is (why it says Hereford I don’t know since that or not even great Malvern now is connected)

The 4tph out of Snow Hill will be spread out over the hour instead of the gaps now. Shrub Hill gets a better service as does Tyseley and Small Heath

 

[Verulamius]

The Network Rail West Midlands Strategic Advice 2022 Report, published last month, suggests in time that there could be 8 trains an hour.

 

[Sprinter107]

G

The 4tph out of Snow Hill will be spread out over the hour instead of the gaps now. Shrub Hill gets a better service as does Tyseley and Small Heath

Good to hear Tyseley and Small Heath are getting a better service. Its been a good few years since their off peaks were reduced from 3 to 2 per hour. Think it was when Chiltern had a shake up of their Birmingham trains.

 

[barbette165]

The 4tph out of Snow Hill will be spread out over the hour instead of the gaps now. Shrub Hill gets a better service as does Tyseley and Small Heath

Do you know if Stratford will continue to get two trains an hour, one via Whitlocks End and the other via Dorridge?

 

[The Planner]

Do you know if Stratford will continue to get two trains an hour, one via Whitlocks End and the other via Dorridge?

Yes.

 

[Birmingham]

Are Worcester trains still planned to go all stations and Kidderminster semi ‘fast’?

 

[The Planner]

Are Worcester trains still planned to go all stations and Kidderminster semi ‘fast’?

Pretty much.

 

[newtownmgr]

Pretty much.

Well that’s going to please the Worcester passengers! Not!

 

[Nova1]

Yes.

Bit of a shame honestly, an extra train each direction via Whitlocks End during the peak would be ideal, currently the 7:23am arrival into Stratford-Upon-Avon is empty, the 8:23am is often packed standing room only with school/college students, and then the 9:23am is empty ish. The timings are less than ideal in the evenings as well with the schools and colleges finishing at 3:15-3:30 ish which often means an hour wait for the next train at 4:26

And also the last stopping service northbound from Stratford-Upon-Avon is at 10:30 which is too early to catch if you've been to the theatre or anything.

 

[Birmingham]

Well that’s going to please the Worcester passengers! Not!

Quite. It’s shame that one of the longer distance journeys on the Snow Hill lines is to become even slower (yes, Worcester has the New Street services, but the Snow Hill services add a genuine second train per hour (the other one arrives the same time as the service that leaves New Street later)).

 

[brick60000]

Quite. It’s shame that one of the longer distance journeys on the Snow Hill lines is to become even slower (yes, Worcester has the New Street services, but the Snow Hill services add a genuine second train per hour (the other one arrives the same time as the service that leaves New Street later)).

Should give a boost to performance, though - on two fronts.

1) by making the Kidderminster terminators semi fast, you increase the time available to shunt between platforms.
2) You’re less likely to delay the all stops Worcester whilst clearing everybody off to do the above.

So although maybe less desirable on the surface - the performance benefits should go some way to counteract that!

 

[Birmingham]

Should give a boost to performance, though - on two fronts.

1) by making the Kidderminster terminators semi fast, you increase the time available to shunt between platforms.
2) You’re less likely to delay the all stops Worcester whilst clearing everybody off to do the above.

So although maybe less desirable on the surface - the performance benefits should go some way to counteract that!

Indeed maybe the all stops Worcesters will keep better to their timings, but said timings will obviously be longer than currently, so it's whether the average journey time saving is enough to counter that. Certainly the semifast Worcesters are often delayed outside Kidderminster waiting for delayed terminators to leave the platform.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Surely it'd be better though to convert both Worcester and Kidderminster services to be all stops Stourbridge to Snow Hill?

 

[Halish Railway]

Surely it'd be better though to convert both Worcester and Kidderminster services to be all stops Stourbridge to Snow Hill?

Although a 15 minute separation isn’t ideal at Stourbridge Junction, where the shuttle to Stourbridge Town runs every 10 minutes. A 10/20 minute separation at Stourbridge Junction is more ideal for a well timed connection onto the shuttle.

 

[Birmingham]

Surely it'd be better though to convert both Worcester and Kidderminster services to be all stops Stourbridge to Snow Hill?

Obviously not for Stourbridge, Kidderminster, and Worcester passengers, no…

 

[Techniquest]

Obviously not for Stourbridge, Kidderminster, and Worcester passengers, no…

Quite so, it's a slow enough journey to Worcester via Stourbridge as it is!