Robertj21a
On Moderation
- Joined
- 22 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 7,520
A lot of this whole story has never 'added up'. Allegedly, there's still a few key bits missing.
I don't believe, from what is being said, that they actually *did* acquire Bath Spa Taxis.
nesw said:I thought a week might go by without a sound from the Fox
news said:They still answer the 'phone as Centurian & when asked if they were aware that Cityfox were using the number I was swiftly passed over to 'the boss' who said he was aware of the 'arrangement' but didn't sound comfortable about it. (Who would be given that it was Bath Taxis last week) When I stated it was a bit odd, the only response was 'yes'! He appeared to be more interested in who I was than anything else.
nesw said:It could be one of the infamous 'marketing agreements' but then they don't answer as Cityfox, so there's little in it for either party.
TheGrandWazoo said:Cityfox acquired Bath Spa Taxis - why would you then have a marketing agreement with one of your competitors?
Neil Williams said:I don't believe, from what is being said, that they actually *did* acquire Bath Spa Taxis.
Thank you Phil, I think you summed things up and explained well.It's Friday evening and I'm in a good mood so I'm going to see if I can throw some light on to parts of this debate in a way that I hope people might find constructive and meaningful.....
It's Friday evening and I'm in a good mood so I'm going to see if I can throw some light on to parts of this debate in a way that I hope people might find constructive and meaningful.
But just to start us off...
With the greatest respect, the only thing that stopped it going a week was you yourself deciding to make a comment
As luck would have it I was at CityFox Group HQ this afternoon when 'the boss' rang to let Rhys know of (what I presume was) your call. He freely volunteered that the conversation was awkward, so apologies if that caused you any offence, but he was completely bamboozled by the fact that someone was ringing him to find out if he really was a taxi company, without actually wanting to book a taxi!
I'm trying to think of an analogy that will make sense to people with transport knowledge, and probably the best equivalent I can come up with is to think of it as something like the practice of 'code sharing' in the airline world. For the uninitiated, this is the arrangement whereby airlines can market the same flight using several different flight numbers belonging to different airlines, so that they can promote a bigger network than if they had to rely on the flights they operate using just their own aircraft, making their airline more attractive to prospective customers.
In this case, the arrangement allows Centurion to trade using their own brand, but also allows CityFox to promote it as part of their 'network'.
There are plans for further integration in the near future but I'm not going to go more into detail over those, because if they don't come to fruition for whatever reason it saves you all lining up with "I thought you said..." type questions
As an aside, this is probably as good a time as any to acknowledge that the recent drama over the Plymouth brand did find a legitimate weakness, and subsequent conversations between the two businesses have confirmed that the agreement that previously existed is no more. The Plymouth brand will therefore progressively be removed from publicity for the time being, although discussions are already underway with other interested parties in the area.
Since becoming involved with taxis last summer I have been up a very steep learning curve (one of several at the same time, I like a challenge) and there are some things I’ve learned which I hope will help people’s understanding.
The main thing to bear in mind is that the world of buses is characterised by neat, well defined corporate structures, and using a combination of internet resources freely available in the public domain it is possible to quickly and easily identify which company owns what, how they are legally structured, who the key people are and what they do, and which assets belong to them.
Without wishing to insult anyone’s intelligence, that is the world most readers of this forum understand, and I think you’re generally looking for the same simplicity and clarity when you try to understand taxi operations.
However the world of taxis and private hire cars is a vastly more complicated beast, in which the range of organisations, their ownership and the way they are structured, and especially the boundaries between them are much more blurred and less clearly drawn.
It’s an industry where the relationship between “brands” and the organisations they describe is much more fluid. Sometimes there will be a formally defined structure such as a limited company, sometimes they work much more loosely as a co-operative, sometimes there is no structure at all and a brand may be nothing more than a bunch of mates choosing to work together.
The main CityFox operation in Bristol is a combination of several of these. There is a limited company, which has some employees and cars. However there are also self-employed drivers who own their own cars who use the brand, and equally there are drivers who don’t identify with the brand at all in any formal sense but who are friendly and will take work from us and refer customers to us when it suits them and us.
Drivers and cars move much more freely between companies, and identify themselves as “belonging to” that company without ever necessarily being an asset on a balance sheet.
In other words, and I really hope I’m not patronising people when I say this, if you approach the world of taxis looking for the same clarity and transparency with which you are familiar in the world of buses, you will be disappointed. The uncertainty you may have trying to understand just who owns what is not particular to CityFox or Rhys Hand, but is a phenomenon of the taxi industry as a whole. It is a world that is dominated by influential individuals rather than legal entities. It has taken me an awfully long time to get my head round this and after seven months on the fringes of the Bristol taxi trade I still find I get confused about who’s working for whom this week, and under what brand.
To avoid descending into a quagmire of tedious detail, the rest of the detail is easier to explain in a pub over a pint, and that’s a courtesy which I would happily extend to any member of this forum (without the threat of legal action )
To conclude with some more personal comments, I’ve obviously spent a fair few months working alongside Rhys now and I’m well aware it’s a move which will have surprised some people. It’s not the only thing I do, and at the same time as learning about taxis I’ve been going up an equally steep learning curve getting to grips with special needs transport and TfL bus contracts in London, and I hope that over time the lessons I’ve been learning will throw up more opportunities for development and as such benefit CityFox in opening new doors.
But Rhys and I work together well because I respect the fact that it’s his company that he has built up from scratch, he’s a single minded entrepreneur and I would never presume to tell him what to do, but I try to guide and advise and look for opportunities to move things forward. In common with all entrepreneurs, Rhys has made mistakes in the past and he will make mistakes in the future, but I greatly respect someone who has the guts to put his neck on the line and go out on his own rather than sitting in an armchair commentating on others’ misfortune.
Rhys can be his own worst enemy at times – and over a pint would freely acknowledge that himself – but I know from my own experience of running Velvet that when you’re alone at the head of an organisation, no matter how much you tell yourself it’s work and not personal, it *is* personal and one can’t help taking criticism that way. But ultimately I believe that the strength of character that allows him to strike out on his own in the first place will ensure that he overcomes obstacles and becomes a great success.
It does therefore frustrate me when people who don’t know him, have probably never met him, know very little about his life, his background and what makes him tick, and know equally little about the industry with which he is most closely involved, choose to rush in and condemn him; even if I understand why people might sometimes draw the conclusions they do. I’d much rather be alongside him, helping him shape his own future and that of his business, but equally not being afraid to give him some stick when I think he’s done wrong, knowing that he will listen and learn and it will help him and the business grow and get better.
Obviously everyone here is entitled to their own opinions, and I can’t force people to believe in him and CityFox, but I am always happy to be as open and honest as I can to assist people in reaching informed judgments rather than knee-jerk conclusions.
Phil, thanks for returning and responding.
I know from friends in the taxi business that are "owner drivers" that they move companies they are driving under more times than I have hot dinners. They pay a commission to the brand for giving them work. There is a significant lack of brand loyalty amongst the drivers.
Phil, thanks for returning and responding.
Agreed, also about making statements on CityFox websites like "Our sister company CityFox Taxis currently operate over 100 taxis across the South West (Bristol, Bath & Plymouth)" and that CityFox Taxis has a fleet size of 95 and 105 employees when this clearly isn't the case as most of those numbers are other taxi companies' vehicles and staff. To stick with Phil's analogy I don't recall airlines including codeshare operations in their aircraft owned and employee stats as that would be misleading.Indeed. It does go some way to explain what I thought might have been going on to some extent (and I do think the codeshare agreement explanation does make sense). However, I would probably suggest Rhys is a bit more careful about claiming he has "acquired" things, when he has in fact signed a marketing agreement with them. If I were one of these businesses, I'd be more than slightly miffed about it being misrepresented.
It's Friday evening and I'm in a good mood so I'm going to see if I can throw some light on to parts of this debate in a way that I hope people might find constructive and meaningful.
But just to start us off...
With the greatest respect, the only thing that stopped it going a week was you yourself deciding to make a comment
As luck would have it I was at CityFox Group HQ this afternoon when 'the boss' rang to let Rhys know of (what I presume was) your call. He freely volunteered that the conversation was awkward, so apologies if that caused you any offence, but he was completely bamboozled by the fact that someone was ringing him to find out if he really was a taxi company, without actually wanting to book a taxi!
I'm trying to think of an analogy that will make sense to people with transport knowledge, and probably the best equivalent I can come up with is to think of it as something like the practice of 'code sharing' in the airline world. For the uninitiated, this is the arrangement whereby airlines can market the same flight using several different flight numbers belonging to different airlines, so that they can promote a bigger network than if they had to rely on the flights they operate using just their own aircraft, making their airline more attractive to prospective customers.
In this case, the arrangement allows Centurion to trade using their own brand, but also allows CityFox to promote it as part of their 'network'.
There are plans for further integration in the near future but I'm not going to go more into detail over those, because if they don't come to fruition for whatever reason it saves you all lining up with "I thought you said..." type questions
As an aside, this is probably as good a time as any to acknowledge that the recent drama over the Plymouth brand did find a legitimate weakness, and subsequent conversations between the two businesses have confirmed that the agreement that previously existed is no more. The Plymouth brand will therefore progressively be removed from publicity for the time being, although discussions are already underway with other interested parties in the area.
Since becoming involved with taxis last summer I have been up a very steep learning curve (one of several at the same time, I like a challenge) and there are some things I’ve learned which I hope will help people’s understanding.
The main thing to bear in mind is that the world of buses is characterised by neat, well defined corporate structures, and using a combination of internet resources freely available in the public domain it is possible to quickly and easily identify which company owns what, how they are legally structured, who the key people are and what they do, and which assets belong to them.
Without wishing to insult anyone’s intelligence, that is the world most readers of this forum understand, and I think you’re generally looking for the same simplicity and clarity when you try to understand taxi operations.
However the world of taxis and private hire cars is a vastly more complicated beast, in which the range of organisations, their ownership and the way they are structured, and especially the boundaries between them are much more blurred and less clearly drawn.
It’s an industry where the relationship between “brands” and the organisations they describe is much more fluid. Sometimes there will be a formally defined structure such as a limited company, sometimes they work much more loosely as a co-operative, sometimes there is no structure at all and a brand may be nothing more than a bunch of mates choosing to work together.
The main CityFox operation in Bristol is a combination of several of these. There is a limited company, which has some employees and cars. However there are also self-employed drivers who own their own cars who use the brand, and equally there are drivers who don’t identify with the brand at all in any formal sense but who are friendly and will take work from us and refer customers to us when it suits them and us.
Drivers and cars move much more freely between companies, and identify themselves as “belonging to” that company without ever necessarily being an asset on a balance sheet.
In other words, and I really hope I’m not patronising people when I say this, if you approach the world of taxis looking for the same clarity and transparency with which you are familiar in the world of buses, you will be disappointed. The uncertainty you may have trying to understand just who owns what is not particular to CityFox or Rhys Hand, but is a phenomenon of the taxi industry as a whole. It is a world that is dominated by influential individuals rather than legal entities. It has taken me an awfully long time to get my head round this and after seven months on the fringes of the Bristol taxi trade I still find I get confused about who’s working for whom this week, and under what brand.
To avoid descending into a quagmire of tedious detail, the rest of the detail is easier to explain in a pub over a pint, and that’s a courtesy which I would happily extend to any member of this forum (without the threat of legal action )
To conclude with some more personal comments, I’ve obviously spent a fair few months working alongside Rhys now and I’m well aware it’s a move which will have surprised some people. It’s not the only thing I do, and at the same time as learning about taxis I’ve been going up an equally steep learning curve getting to grips with special needs transport and TfL bus contracts in London, and I hope that over time the lessons I’ve been learning will throw up more opportunities for development and as such benefit CityFox in opening new doors.
But Rhys and I work together well because I respect the fact that it’s his company that he has built up from scratch, he’s a single minded entrepreneur and I would never presume to tell him what to do, but I try to guide and advise and look for opportunities to move things forward. In common with all entrepreneurs, Rhys has made mistakes in the past and he will make mistakes in the future, but I greatly respect someone who has the guts to put his neck on the line and go out on his own rather than sitting in an armchair commentating on others’ misfortune.
Rhys can be his own worst enemy at times – and over a pint would freely acknowledge that himself – but I know from my own experience of running Velvet that when you’re alone at the head of an organisation, no matter how much you tell yourself it’s work and not personal, it *is* personal and one can’t help taking criticism that way. But ultimately I believe that the strength of character that allows him to strike out on his own in the first place will ensure that he overcomes obstacles and becomes a great success.
It does therefore frustrate me when people who don’t know him, have probably never met him, know very little about his life, his background and what makes him tick, and know equally little about the industry with which he is most closely involved, choose to rush in and condemn him; even if I understand why people might sometimes draw the conclusions they do. I’d much rather be alongside him, helping him shape his own future and that of his business, but equally not being afraid to give him some stick when I think he’s done wrong, knowing that he will listen and learn and it will help him and the business grow and get better.
Obviously everyone here is entitled to their own opinions, and I can’t force people to believe in him and CityFox, but I am always happy to be as open and honest as I can to assist people in reaching informed judgments rather than knee-jerk conclusions.