Sorting out the Marshlink

[SussexSpotter]

Having travelled along the Marshlink recently, I really do think some sort of improvement needs to be made to this line sooner rather than later, but nothing seems to be seriously proposed (at least i'm not aware of it).

Some upgrades were made during the 9 week closure last year, but nothing that really stands out as an overall improvement to services. Some halt stations such as Doleham recieve a very infrequent service, only a few per day. There has been little in the way of timetable improvements.

There's supposedly been talk about electrification, HS1 Southeastern javelin services running to Hastings, Bexhill and Eastbourne, as well as redoubling the line to what it was originally, but all of which would be very expensive. Having miraculously survived the axe of Mr Beeching during the 60's, this line really has seen little in the way of investment, with many of the stations along the route between Ore and Ashford looking very baron these days.

There are also various speed restrictions along the route, (Ashford subsiding embankment and Winchelsea level crossing being 2 that spring to mind)....when are these due to be resolved?

The services nowadays are often crowded most of the time, 2 car operated Southern 171's (with the exception of 4 car during Rye bonfire), which can be quite a squeeze. With the summer now upon us these services are likely to get even more crowded, i've known some occasions where passengers have been left standing at certain stations as there is no room to board the train.

Whilst the introduction of the through service between Brighton and Ashford in 2005 has provided some improvements for the locals, I do question how well used this service actually is for making an end to end journey. I am led to believe the main market for services along the Marshlink is Ashford-Rye-Hastings-Bexhill-Eastbourne, and whether it is a waste of both fuel and resources operating the service through to Brighton every hour.

Any thoughts?

http://www.ryeandbattleobserver.co....by-rail-users-on-the-marshlink-line-1-4854601

 

[yorksrob]

As a user of the route from the late 1980's onwards, I've seen the changes from 3carriage thumper shuttles to two carriage thumper shuttles to three carriage through trains to Brighton then cut back to Eastbourne, then new trains then extension back to Brighton.

The route seems a lot busier than it used to be and I would suggest the best thing that could happen at the moment would be electrification so that some of those longer EMU's could be used, bringing relief to passengers all the way between Ashford and Brighton.

I'd certainly keep the through service. My family often use it as a day out from Ashford to Brighton, which they wouldn't have done before the through service, so I can only assume a lot of normals feel the same. I've not noticed how many people travel all the way along the coast, however, plenty seem to stay on the train through Hastings.

I would also revive the Marshlink identity, compete with NSE smuggler route badge:

http://www.networksoutheast.net/route-brands.html

 

[paul1609]

Having travelled along the Marshlink recently, I really do think some sort of improvement needs to be made to this line sooner rather than later, but nothing seems to be seriously proposed (at least i'm not aware of it).

Some upgrades were made during the 9 week closure last year, but nothing that really stands out as an overall improvement to services. Some halt stations such as Doleham recieve a very infrequent service, only a few per day. There has been little in the way of timetable improvements.

There's supposedly been talk about electrification, HS1 Southeastern javelin services running to Hastings, Bexhill and Eastbourne, as well as redoubling the line to what it was originally, but all of which would be very expensive. Having miraculously survived the axe of Mr Beeching during the 60's, this line really has seen little in the way of investment, with many of the stations along the route between Ore and Ashford looking very baron these days.

There are also various speed restrictions along the route, (Ashford subsiding embankment and Winchelsea level crossing being 2 that spring to mind)....when are these due to be resolved?

The services nowadays are often crowded most of the time, 2 car operated Southern 171's (with the exception of 4 car during Rye bonfire), which can be quite a squeeze. With the summer now upon us these services are likely to get even more crowded, i've known some occasions where passengers have been left standing at certain stations as there is no room to board the train.

Whilst the introduction of the through service between Brighton and Ashford in 2005 has provided some improvements for the locals, I do question how well used this service actually is for making an end to end journey. I am led to believe the main market for services along the Marshlink is Ashford-Rye-Hastings-Bexhill-Eastbourne, and whether it is a waste of both fuel and resources operating the service through to Brighton every hour.

Any thoughts?

http://www.ryeandbattleobserver.co....by-rail-users-on-the-marshlink-line-1-4854601

i live about equal distance between Rye and Appledore stations. In my experience whilst the trains can be busy they are very rarely crowded to the extent you suggest on Marshlink proper. Rye is the biggest town on the line with a population 3600, Doleham has around 6 houses in a mile radius of the station. Most of the other stations are some way from the villages that they serve (Winchelsea, Appledore) which are reached along unlit country roads with no pavements.
The speed restriction for the Ashford embankment was removed last year. Winchelsea level crossing limit is not really a problem if the train is stopping in the platform (50% plus do).
I think the service is pretty good for the possible patronage.

 

[ushawk]

The best thing is electrifying and (where possible) doubling the line. Longer trains will come with that too, as 2 coaches is simply too small for the route. Potentially you could extend the current Ore terminators to Ashford/Rye too, especially with the extra 377s coming Southern's way.

Doleham only serves the countryside and a farm so certainly doesn't deserve a regular service.

 

[SussexSpotter]

The best thing is electrifying and (where possible) doubling the line. Longer trains will come with that too, as 2 coaches is simply too small for the route. Potentially you could extend the current Ore terminators to Ashford/Rye too, especially with the extra 377s coming Southern's way.

Doleham only serves the countryside and a farm so certainly doesn't deserve a regular service.

Whilst I would like to see electrification happen, as it would allow for 377's to run along the route. I think something like that is a long way off and I wonder how difficult it would be to make such a case for electrification???

There's also the issue of which gets electrified first, Hurst Green-Uckfield or Ore-Ashford???

 

[mister-sparky]

The Ashford-Brighton semi fasts are definitely well used between Hastings and Brighton. 2 cars definitely is not enough, always full and standing even off-peak. They should electrify it first. Then keep the Ashford-Brighton, but make it stop at Rye only between Ashford and Hastings, then as now. Also bump it up to 4 cars initially, to see if that's enough. Then have an hourly stopper from Ashford to Hastings. Those 3 things should see massive improvements. Also, linespeed improvements along the whole coast is another thing that needs doing.

 

[TheJRB]

What I think would serve as a good interim measure if it could possibly be arranged, would be for a two car 171 to attach and detach at Hastings providing additional capacity on the busiest stretch to Brighton. I don't know how many units that would require, but it must be less than to double up every service. Alternatively a good solution would be for the two car 171s to get a third carriage if such money appeared for the project.

I'd be very surprised if the Marshlink is anywhere but at the bottom of the list of potential electrification projects. It's not like there's a spare batch of 377s waiting to take over!

 

[TrainBoy98]

Whilst I would like to see electrification happen, as it would allow for 377's to run along the route. I think something like that is a long way off and I wonder how difficult it would be to make such a case for electrification???

There's also the issue of which gets electrified first, Hurst Green-Uckfield or Ore-Ashford???

Quite difficult I would think as there isn't many people that the line would serve. 377s would be great, but electrification wont happen for a while to come yet. First the service should be more frequent (if possible) and be formed of 4 coaches, if it is well used, then electrification might just be justifiable.

As for that, it would be a case of benefit/cost ratio, on the fact that Hurst Green-Uckfield serves more and that it might be part of the Brighton Mainline Two project will probably help its case greatly.

 

[paul1609]

The Ashford-Brighton semi fasts are definitely well used between Hastings and Brighton. 2 cars definitely is not enough, always full and standing even off-peak. They should electrify it first. Then keep the Ashford-Brighton, but make it stop at Rye only between Ashford and Hastings, then as now. Also bump it up to 4 cars initially, to see if that's enough. Then have an hourly stopper from Ashford to Hastings. Those 3 things should see massive improvements. Also, linespeed improvements along the whole coast is another thing that needs doing.

I commute often between Rye and Portsmouth via Brighton it seems to me that the stretches that the trains are overcrowded are fairly limited if theres no special events on. Id say its mostly Lewes to Polegate and bexhill to hastings. Idealy the trains need increasing to 3 cars this would allow the current stopping pattern to be maintained on Marshlink. I cant see that a fast Hastings to Ashford service only calling at Rye would be viable. It would also mean that Ham Street and Appledore would lose the 2 tph service they currently enjoy in the peaks. id be in favour of dropping the stop at polegate which is already well served.

 

[Chrisgr31]

There's also the issue of which gets electrified first, Hurst Green-Uckfield or Ore-Ashford???

Which ever gets electrified first potentially gives a boost to the other as it will release more Class 171's for the other line. Bearing in mind there are no additional Class 171s and no intention to order any hope for additional stock to increase services on either line is misplaced. Having said that in theory the platforms along the Uckfield line are due to be lengthened, one wonders what the point is if there is no additional stock to lengthen the trains on the line.

Personally the solution to the Marshlink seems relatively simple if the overcrowding is between Hastings and Brighton because as far as I know that stretch is electrified, so they could just terminate all diesels at Hastings and run longer electric trains from Hastings to Brighton. Yes it would mean a hassle for the passengers but would it be offset by the advantages of longer trains?

 

[SussexSpotter]

Which ever gets electrified first potentially gives a boost to the other as it will release more Class 171's for the other line. Bearing in mind there are no additional Class 171s and no intention to order any hope for additional stock to increase services on either line is misplaced. Having said that in theory the platforms along the Uckfield line are due to be lengthened, one wonders what the point is if there is no additional stock to lengthen the trains on the line.

Personally the solution to the Marshlink seems relatively simple if the overcrowding is between Hastings and Brighton because as far as I know that stretch is electrified, so they could just terminate all diesels at Hastings and run longer electric trains from Hastings to Brighton. Yes it would mean a hassle for the passengers but would it be offset by the advantages of longer trains?

Very true!

I don't think operating a 2 car diesel all the way between Ore and Brighton (over electrified track) is the best use of resources, given the frequent overcrowding which occurs.

I feel it would be much better to terminate this service at either Hastings or Eastbourne at certain time of the days, with a connecting 4 car electric service taking over from either of those stations. That's not to say the through service should be removed from the timetable completly as there would be through passengers that rely on this service, but perhaps running it at a reduced level, saving fuel and providing more seats during the busiest times.

One thing that would be interesting to find out is just how many people actually use this service to connect with the limited number of eurostar services which serve ashford international.

 

[island]

I thought there was no more third rail electrification ever due to H&S?

 

[mister-sparky]

...I cant see that a fast Hastings to Ashford service only calling at Rye would be viable. It would also mean that Ham Street and Appledore would lose the 2 tph service they currently enjoy in the peaks. id be in favour of dropping the stop at polegate which is already well served.

That's not what my post said at all... The semi-fast would continue to be Ashford-Brighton as it is now. Ham Street and Appledore would not lose 2tph as they would be served by the Ashford-Hastings stopper which I suggested. Read peoples posts before making negative comments about them.

 

[sarahj]

I think southern should lease a 141/142 and run it as a shuttle between Hastings and Ashford, calling all stops, plus run the hourly 171 from Brighton as a very limited stopper.

SJ

 

[yorksrob]

I feel it would be much better to terminate this service at either Hastings or Eastbourne at certain time of the days, with a connecting 4 car electric service taking over from either of those stations. That's not to say the through service should be removed from the timetable completly as there would be through passengers that rely on this service, but perhaps running it at a reduced level, saving fuel and providing more seats during the busiest times.

One thing that would be interesting to find out is just how many people actually use this service to connect with the limited number of eurostar services which serve ashford international.

I'm not convinced it would work. I suspect that the through service wouldn't be consistent enough to continue to attract through passengers (I've a feeling this was tried with the original through train when Eurostar first started. They ended up cutting it back to Eastbourne).

Anything involving more diesels seems less optimal than electrification due to the length of the route with third rail and the lack of willingness in general to build more DMU's
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think southern should lease a 141/142 and run it as a shuttle between Hastings and Ashford,SJ

We've seen them off thus far - it would be a tradgedy to succumb at this stage !

 

[JamesRowden]

I have attached the part of the Kent route specification relevant to the Marshlink. It shows that improvements to the Marshlink are being developed. The main improvement stated is the removal of the permanent speed restrictions and an increase in line speed from 60mph to 75mph which it predicts will result in an Ashford-Hastings journey time reduction from 41 minutes to 35 minutes within the next ten years.

 

[Seagulls01]

Another improvement would be re-in statement of the Stone Cross chord, between Polegate and Pevensey & Westham. This would shave some time of the journey.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I'd certainly keep the through service. My family often use it as a day out from Ashford to Brighton, which they wouldn't have done before the through service, so I can only assume a lot of normals feel the same.

The through service is definitely used. People I know have used the service to connect with services to places like Faversham and Ramsgate. It's also used to connect directly with East Midlands service out of St. Pancras International via HS1. Some don't want to navigate the underground or use FCC services either, so it's a big plus.

http://www.networksoutheast.net/route-brands.html

While we're at it, bring back all of them! Community attachment and whatnot.

I think southern should lease a 141/142 and run it as a shuttle between Hastings and Ashford, calling all stops, plus run the hourly 171 from Brighton as a very limited stopper.

SJ

Why do you hate us? The Marshlink is bad enough without turning it into a rodeo bull simulator! Although a Pacer in Southern livery would look nice in an ugly stepchild kind of way...

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I wondered why connections at Ashford for St.Pancras were pretty lengthy (16mins past arrival with 13 past departure for St.Pancras). last night I realised why as the 21:56 was advertised as 23 mins late and when 22;17 arrived it then disappeared off the board to eventually pull in 38 down. Am told it is common for trains to run late due to 'trespassers' on the track. Is it smugglers escaping the revenue men ? Is the Scarecrow of Romney Marsh still at large ?
Maybe they should market the line to American fans of the Scarecrow as it still seems to have followers out there -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6i-3eJ7a98

Forogt to mention 21:56 ex Rye

 

[MarkyT]

I think Ashford-Ore should be electrified using OHLE and dual voltage units, perhaps 319s displaced from Thameslink, for through services. Arrangements would be made at Ore for power changeover at a stand or slow coast through the station, and to allow DC only trains to continue to terminate and reverse there from the west. Some experimental Southeastern HS services could try running to Hastings or Eastbourne using the high speed units' existing DV capability, but a significant obstacle preventing this is the absence of direct junction connections at Ashford from HS1 across the layout to Hastings. That could be difficult and expensive to resolve.

 

[yorksrob]

While we're at it, bring back all of them! Community attachment and whatnot.

You'll find no complaints from me

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I think Ashford-Ore should be electrified using OHLE and dual voltage units, perhaps 319s displaced from Thameslink.

Aren't the 319's heading North for the Liverpool - Manchester electrification ?

 

[MarkyT]

Aren't the 319's heading North for the Liverpool - Manchester electrification ?

I think some are destined for the north and some for GW suburban, but I've also heard that at least part of that GW fleet needs 125MPH or 110MPH capability to make the most of the main (fast) line capacity alongside the new IEPs. It follows that part of the fleet may end up new build, perhaps rendering some of the 319s spare once again. They might also be used on Uckfield trains if that line was electrified using OHLE.

 

[sarahj]

It was only a joke about running pacers, but when people moan about crap 171's, all I can think is Southern should lease a 141 for this line just to show how crap they are.

As for the Polegate-Pevensey chord, some new houses are being built as we speak on the old line just east of polegate. However, its all a bit of a pipe dream anyway. Eastbourne is a major traffic sourse on this route. Missing it out and getting people to change at Polegate just makes no point.

 

[JamesRowden]

As for the Polegate-Pevensey chord, some new houses are being built as we speak on the old line just east of polegate. However, its all a bit of a pipe dream anyway. Eastbourne is a major traffic sourse on this route. Missing it out and getting people to change at Polegate just makes no point.

Then build a short chord at the present junction and include an 'Eastbourne Parkway' station at the chord on the line towards Polegate.

All services could call at the Eastbourne Parkway station. It could have a large Car Park to work both as a Park and Ride and as a more convinient station for people travelling to/from the north of the town to use (perhaps some money could be made by selling off the multi-storey car-park at Eastbourne station). I expect that the Parkway station would attract some useful bus services.

I would suggest that a good service pattern might be to:

• Reroute the Brighton-Ashford service via the chord.
  • Add an Eastbourne-Ashford service.
  • Add a semi-fast Brighton-Eastbourne service.
• Make the Victoria-Ore service split at Eastbourne Parkway
  • One half continues to Eastbourne and the other half to Hastings/Ore
  • Stop this service splitting from the Littlehampton service at Haywards Heath
    • One of the services taking over a Gatwick Express path

I think that running two Marshlink services per hour with one to Brighton and the other Eastbourne should mean that the use of 2-car 171s would be sufficient. The higher frequency on the Marshlink and the faster journey times between Ashford and Brighton should attract more people to use the service.

The faster journey time between Bexhill and Victoria should attact more people to use the service rather than driving to Battle station or changing at St Leonards Warrior Square.

 

[Antman]

Yes I think 1tph from Ashford to Eastbourne and 1tph direct to Brighton via a new chord would be the ideal scenario, the Brighton train would only need to stop at Rye between Ashford and Hastings. Is there any justification for keeping Doleham open?

I don't think through services to London are viable.

 

[sarahj]

We dont own the big multi-story car park at Eastbourne, its NCP (there are big signs on it). We do own the large station car park.
As Eastbourne is a large traffic generator, I think avoiding it, and spending money for one train an hour, does not make any sense.

On another note, I notice that the A22, Goldern Jubilee Way goes over the old line, thus, you would need to put a bridge in, more expense, again, for one train an hour.
TBH, Polegate is more of a Eastbourne Parkway. People come down from Hailsham, there are buses, taxis and a decent car park, and its not too much of a drag from the A22/A27. There are also cafes and shops right outside. It also has a decent service:

Lewes x4 TPH
Vic/Gtw x2 TPH
Btn x2 TPH (plus another with a 6 min connection at LWS)
EBN x 4 TPH
HGS x 3TPH

Plus extras in rush hour.

Only issue there I think is the level crossing.

 

[JamesRowden]

We dont own the big multi-story car park at Eastbourne, its NCP (there are big signs on it). We do own the large station car park.
As Eastbourne is a large traffic generator, I think avoiding it, and spending money for one train an hour, does not make any sense.

On another note, I notice that the A22, Goldern Jubilee Way goes over the old line, thus, you would need to put a bridge in, more expense, again, for one train an hour.
TBH, Polegate is more of a Eastbourne Parkway. People come down from Hailsham, there are buses, taxis and a decent car park, and its not too much of a drag from the A22/A27. There are also cafes and shops right outside. It also has a decent service:

Lewes x4 TPH
Vic/Gtw x2 TPH
Btn x2 TPH (plus another with a 6 min connection at LWS)
EBN x 4 TPH
HGS x 3TPH

Plus extras in rush hour.

Only issue there I think is the level crossing.

READ MY EARLIER POST

It contains a service pattern of 2tph via the chord not 1tph.

The chord that is shown on my post leaves the line to Ashford just West of the A22 and so crossing the A22 is not an issue at all.

Also my suggestion involves a station in Eastbourne that trains via the chord would still call at (and trains between Polegate and Eastborune would also call at).

My suggested service pattern effectively maintains Eastbourne station's service appart from reducing the frequency to Hastings/Ore to 2tph rather than 3tph.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
An Eastbourne Parkway station obviously is not essential to my idea. The chord could be implemented cheaply with just the 500 meter chord built by itself. The service patterns that I have suggested could still run but with the splitting/joining of the Victoria-Eastbourne/Hastings service at Polegate instead.

 

[Antman]

We dont own the big multi-story car park at Eastbourne, its NCP (there are big signs on it). We do own the large station car park.
As Eastbourne is a large traffic generator, I think avoiding it, and spending money for one train an hour, does not make any sense.

On another note, I notice that the A22, Goldern Jubilee Way goes over the old line, thus, you would need to put a bridge in, more expense, again, for one train an hour.
TBH, Polegate is more of a Eastbourne Parkway. People come down from Hailsham, there are buses, taxis and a decent car park, and its not too much of a drag from the A22/A27. There are also cafes and shops right outside. It also has a decent service:

Lewes x4 TPH
Vic/Gtw x2 TPH
Btn x2 TPH (plus another with a 6 min connection at LWS)
EBN x 4 TPH
HGS x 3TPH

Plus extras in rush hour.

Only issue there I think is the level crossing.

But passengers from Ashford, Rye and Hastings to Lewes and Brighton really don't want to take the 'scenic route' via Eastbourne.

Perhaps evening connections at Ashford could be improved as well? Marshlink trains arrive at 20.18, 21.18 and 22.18 whilst the Victoria via Maidstone East service departs at 20.17, 21.17 and 22.17

 

[paul1609]

I dont think there is much traffic off Marshlink at those times of night what there is is either returning to Ashford or up to town via HS1. To be honest most Victoria trains leave Ashford near empty post HS1. I think theres a few passengers in the peaks to Maidstone and thats about it.