South Coast 3rd Rail Issues - 24th February 2024

[GordonT]

National Rail flagging up weather related disruption affecting 3rd rail and stopping the job between Brockenhurst and Lymington Pier and also between Weymouth and Bournemouth. Normally weather issues affecting the 3rd rail have an ice connotation but presumably something different this morning. Salt water incursion causing supply problems perhaps? Source was https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/status-and-disruptions/ on the above date but regrettably I forgot to paste the information on this post - apologies to anyone impacted by this for whatever reason.

 

[Towers]

Reported as ice, frozen heavy rainfall.

 

[GordonT]

Reported as ice, frozen heavy rainfall.

Thanks. I hadn't imagined it would have been low enough temperature.

 

[AM9]

Thanks. I hadn't imagined it would have been low enough temperature.

I wonder if any OLE is 'frozen' today - hindering services?

 

[Ken X]

Back in the very early seventies I think I remember Diesels being sent through on icy mornings at Hampton. Was this done purely as motive power or was there a third rail cleaning process being undertaken? Really don't know as I was school age at the time.

 

[Towers]

Back in the very early seventies I think I remember Diesels being sent through on icy mornings at Hampton. Was this done purely as motive power or was there a third rail cleaning process being undertaken? Really don't know as I was school age at the time.

Was/is it possible to run a 73 in diesel but with the shoes down, I wonder?

 

[Carlisle]

Back in the very early seventies I think I remember Diesels being sent through on icy mornings at Hampton. Was this done purely as motive power or was there a third rail cleaning process being undertaken? Really don't know as I was school age at the time.

For any effect on the 3rd rail it’d have to be class 73s, normal EMU’s or de icing units.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Quite heavy frost and fog overnight here in St Albans ......had to scrape the car at 0245 this am......



Recalling unexpected frost on the 3d rail - occasionally caught out - but we used to send a pair of 313's out overnight to help the first service trains Watford to Queens Park - say 2 round trips as a particular bad frost spot was Bushey Arches. Seemed to work when no de-icer handy. (having been caught once with stalled trains)

 

[The exile]

Quite heavy frost and fog overnight here in St Albans ......had to scrape the car at 0245 this am......

Same in Bath - well, the frost bit anyway.

 

[AM9]

Quite heavy frost and fog overnight here in St Albans ......had to scrape the car at 0245 this am......



Recalling unexpected frost on the 3d rail - occasionally caught out - but we used to send a pair of 313's out overnight to help the first service trains Watford to Queens Park - say 2 round trips as a particular bad frost spot was Bushey Arches. Seemed to work when no de-icer handy. (having been caught once with stalled trains)

Was there a hoar frost this morning? I went out around 09:45 and there was a lot of meltwater dripping off some tall silver birch trees. I wasn't up around 08:00 when if there was a hoar frost, it would have been nice to see it.

 

[Somewhere]

I wonder if any OLE is 'frozen' today - hindering services?

At least the conductor rail can be used once the ice melts, unlike the overheads which have to be put back together when the wind stops blowing

 

[The exile]

Was there a hoar frost this morning? I went out around 09:45 and there was a lot of meltwater dripping off some tall silver birch trees. I wasn't up around 08:00 when if there was a hoar frost, it would have been nice to see it.

Lovely frost patterns on the roof of the car at half past two this morning!

 

[AM9]

At least the conductor rail can be used once the ice melts, unlike the overheads which have to be put back together when the wind stops blowing

Give properly designed and constructed OLE, even in climate change extremes of weather, there is less failure of the power supply and its infrastructure when it is 15ft above the rails. Of course there were tatty systems put up in the '80s and the price is being paid forever more. Do it properly and it will last just as long as the 3rd rail, and have lower power losses and less safety issues.

 

[43096]

Reported as ice, frozen heavy rainfall.

SWR are calling it “extreme weather”. Sorry, but ice on the stabiliser rail in February is not extreme.

 

[CarrotPie]

SWR are calling it “extreme weather”. Sorry, but ice on the stabiliser rail in February is not extreme.

Stabiliser rail!

 

[infobleep]

Lovely frost patterns on the roof of the car at half past two this morning!

You can get nice frost patterns on the footbridge windows over Guildford railway station.

One year I photographed them and having lightened the image, used it as a background image on my Christmas cards I make.

 

[Bikeman78]

I wonder if any OLE is 'frozen' today - hindering services?

I recall freezing rain in the Netherlands back in about 1995. Great fun watching people trying to drive on what had basically become a skating rink. The trains were still running but the arcing off the pantograph was very impressive. The bigger challenge was cycling back to the house. We fell off several times!

 

[in_the_west]

I remember back in the 1980s when I lived near the coastway route going out one evening when there was heavy snowfall and seeing the night sky lit up by a passing EMU due to arching from the 3rd rail. One time I was on a train travelling from Portsmouth & Southsea in a heavy snowstorm and they added a 4EBP to the usual 4VEP as apparently 4EPBs performed better in snowy / icy conditions.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I remember back in the 1980s when I lived near the coastway route going out one evening when there was heavy snowfall and seeing the night sky lit up by a passing EMU due to arching from the 3rd rail. One time I was on a train travelling from Portsmouth & Southsea in a heavy snowstorm and they added a 4EBP to the usual 4VEP as apparently 4EPBs performed better in snowy / icy conditions.

"Fast" Bournemouth trains had the 4-REP power cars marshalled "inside" in snowy and icy weather to give better traction - and I recall putting 4-VEP's on the Waterloo - Hampton Court service as they manager a lot better than the single powered car 455's which really struggled .....

 

[4COR]

Was/is it possible to run a 73 in diesel but with the shoes down, I wonder?

Believe so - I've seen pictures of a 73 running in snow down to Caterham on diesel to clear the 3rd rail, and not so long in the distant past (2009?)

 

[Deepgreen]

Of course this is NOT extreme weather, but it demonstrates my belief that todasy's trains are getting more and more delicate and less able to deal with various normal seasonal weather types. It's worth noting, BTW, that the sandy soil of the New Forest/Bournemouth area does lead to faster radiative cooling under clear skies than other soil types.

"Fast" Bournemouth trains had the 4-REP power cars marshalled "inside" in snowy and icy weather to give better traction - and I recall putting 4-VEP's on the Waterloo - Hampton Court service as they manager a lot better than the single powered car 455's which really struggled .....

Indeed, but it was to allow the TCs to clear the rails for the REP rather than better adhesion.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

I have fond memories riding home from school on a winter's afternoon (therefore dark) on the Boston Elevated after an ice storm and the spectacular arcing of the third rail shoes, sometimes almost gapping the car and the lights going out.

When they extended the East Boston tunnel to Revere which ran along the coast using a former narrow gauge railroad right of way, they elected to use OLE knowing that 3rd rail icing would be an issue being so close to the ocean. The trains change over from 3rd rail at the first station on the surface.

 

[CarrotPie]

Indeed, but it was to allow the TCs to clear the rails for the REP rather than better adhesion.

TC being track circuit?

 

[Deepgreen]

TC being track circuit?

Sorry - 4TCs were the trailer units that accompanied 4REPs on the Bournemouth route, being detached at Bournemouth for onward haulage to Weymouth by class 33s prior to electrification.

 

[CarrotPie]

Sorry - 4TCs were the trailer units that accompanied 4REPs on the Bournemouth route, being detached at Bournemouth for onward haulage to Weymouth by class 33s prior to electrification.

Ah right.

 

[Deepgreen]

I have fond memories riding home from school on a winter's afternoon (therefore dark) on the Boston Elevated after an ice storm and the spectacular arcing of the third rail shoes, sometimes almost gapping the car and the lights going out.

When they extended the East Boston tunnel to Revere which ran along the coast using a former narrow gauge railroad right of way, they elected to use OLE knowing that 3rd rail icing would be an issue being so close to the ocean. The trains change over from 3rd rail at the first station on the surface.

While third rail is terrible in freezing rain/ice storm conditions, I wonder how often ice storms coat the OHLE to the extent that it is a problem. Freezing rain is far more common in the NE USA than here. I seem to recall there was a movie called 'The Ice Storm' which featured (fairly incidentally) a train (New Haven line?) becoming stranded.

 

[CarrotPie]

While third rail is terrible in freezing rain/ice storm conditions, I wonder how often ice storms coat the OHLE to the extent that it is a problem. Freezing rain is far more common in the NE USA than here. I seem to recall there was a movie called 'The Ice Storm' which featured (fairly incidentally) a train (New Haven line?) becoming stranded.

Freezing rain stopped our (4-month-old) orbital light rail line in Helsinki a few weeks ago, by coating the OHLE and stranding vehicles because they couldn't draw power, so it's not just third rail! I might also add that our metro system that uses bottom-contact third rail has no problems with weather or acceleration (our new CAF trains take off like a rocket!).

 

[Deepgreen]

Freezing rain stopped our (4-month-old) orbital light rail line in Helsinki a few weeks ago, by coating the OHLE and stranding vehicles because they couldn't draw power, so it's not just third rail! I might also add that our metro system that uses bottom-contact third rail has no problems with weather or acceleration (our new CAF trains take off like a rocket!).

Yes, to me, bottom-contact third rail is a far better option for urban/sub-100mph electrification - safer and far more weather resilient.

Ah right.

Sorry, I hadn't spotted your location previously! Class 33s are medium-sized diesel locos from the 1960s (1550hp).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Give properly designed and constructed OLE, even in climate change extremes of weather, there is less failure of the power supply and its infrastructure when it is 15ft above the rails. Of course there were tatty systems put up in the '80s and the price is being paid forever more. Do it properly and it will last just as long as the 3rd rail, and have lower power losses and less safety issues.

The reality is BR from the early 70's was cash limited and its engineers came up with cost effective solutions to electrify lines that would have never been electrified but as a result of the sparks effect traffic increased and 30 years on some of that infrastructure is showing its age. Its quite variable though as MML is four track headspan throughout with significantly higher levels of traffic than 40 years ago but doesn't suffer from the dewirements we see on other routes.

 

[AM9]

The reality is BR from the early 70's was cash limited and its engineers came up with cost effective solutions to electrify lines that would have never been electrified but as a result of the sparks effect traffic increased and 30 years on some of that infrastructure is showing its age. Its quite variable though as MML is four track headspan throughout with significantly higher levels of traffic than 40 years ago but doesn't suffer from the dewirements we see on other routes.

The MML has it's fair share of dewirements but until very recently, maximum speeds on the fasts have been limited to 100mph, and much of that is only possible for fairly short distances owing to the curvature of the line. Those areas that have known shortcomings are being reinforced or replaced in preparation for the class 810s (and 360s) running faster than 100mph south of Bedford.