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South Wales Metro - Future

positron

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Seems worth starting a new thread to discuss future aspects of the South Wales metro.

Abergavenny has a population of around 12,000 compared with over 50k in Merthyr, 40k in Aberdare, and over 200k along the Rhondda valley. So no way is 4 tph a necessity beyond Pontypool and indeed would be a complete over provision for those additional 12 miles.
I was mostly thinking of Abergavenny as the natural end of the service due to the fact it has the capability of getting a bay platform and also as a Heads of the valley road interchange. So it's (growing) population isn't the only factor.
 
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anthony263

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Slightly off topic but looks like electrification to Swansea is being looked at again. There was a story on walesonline which I can't get the link to again.

Our local tory MP as useless as he is has come out in support of it especially as his emails been flooded by angry constituents fed up of very overcrowded trains and being left behind. Someone told him about all these EMUs going surplussurplusq
 

D.L.P.R.

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Slightly off topic but looks like electrification to Swansea is being looked at again. There was a story on walesonline which I can't get the link to again.

Our local tory MP as useless as he is has come out in support of it especially as his emails been flooded by angry constituents fed up of very overcrowded trains and being left behind. Someone told him about all these EMUs going surplussurplusq
Here's the link to the item on electrification to Swansea https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/rail-electrification-swansea-cardiff-trains-28191790 but doesn't seem to be based on more than a remark from the Leader of Swansea Council at the moment. If it went ahead, would electrification of the Maesteg line be included? To be honest, I'd rather the 2tph we're still waiting for after it being promised for almost two decades, whatever the mode of traction!
 

MarkyT

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If it went ahead, would electrification of the Maesteg line be included? To be honest, I'd rather the 2tph we're still waiting for after it being promised for almost two decades, whatever the mode of traction!
Mainline electrification would make Maesteg a perfect application for a battery-equipped FLIRT, with plenty of en-route charging opportunity between Cardiff and Bridgend.
 

anthony263

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Here's the link to the item on electrification to Swansea https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/rail-electrification-swansea-cardiff-trains-28191790 but doesn't seem to be based on more than a remark from the Leader of Swansea Council at the moment. If it went ahead, would electrification of the Maesteg line be included? To be honest, I'd rather the 2tph we're still waiting for after it being promised for almost two decades, whatever the mode of traction!
You'd have more chance of having a battery powered class 230 doing a hourly shuttle from Bridgend to Maesteg in between the hourly Maesteg to Ebbw Vale service. That probably depends on the Greenford trial.

Dont forget Swanline taking the 2nd stopper path between Bridgend and Cardiff Central.
 

positron

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Any electrification work west of Cardiff would probably come hand in hand with capacity improvements especially between Cardiff and Bridgend so you'd hopefully get more stoppers to provide a truly metro service.

That being said if initially you had a shuttle between Bridgend and Maesteg along with the Cardiff - Maesteg that wouldn't be awful. Not dissimilar from the Ebbw to Newport shuttle.

Any further electrification really would make the case for pantos on the 231.
 
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Topological

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Swanline does not have to call at stations between Bridgend and Cardiff.

Since this is speculative the train picking up the calls can set off from Bridgend earlier and avoid the current situation where the Swanline stopper holds up the GWR Paddington.
 

Peter Sarf

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Drifting off topic from the "South Wales 'Metro' updates" thread.
I was down there last week. There is a third line that has the ability to continue on and out into the Bay. The two old Bute St platforms are being constructed as a terminus and the third line will provisionally allow transit onwards.
+
I’m trying to picture this. I assume the third/through rail is to the east/Lloyd George Avenue side?
But if
That’s what I assume too.

As part of the Central > Bay link the line in the Bay will be extended to Pierhead Street. I’d imagine that trains from Ponty will run and terminate in the Current Bay station and ones from Central will run to Pierhead Street (and in years to come further out east).

I can’t see a service from Ponty ever running properly on the streets of Cardiff, because as others have said it’ll cause havoc with the timetables.

I think I also read that the 389s will need a different wheel profile for the on street sections so my guess is that there will be two/four/six etc dedicated units for the Central > Pierhead Street run. There’ll also be a fairly busy crossover junction of some sorts on the bay branch line with six units from the valleys and six going to the valleys plus as a guess four (or more) from Central per hour.
If the Cardiff Central services are to go beyond Cardiff Bay then maybe it would make sense for these to run down the West side of the Queen Street to Bay lines and peel of from the West Side. Rather than the East side. That way there would be no conflicting moves.

So I wonder what is really happening ?.
 

positron

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Drifting off topic from the "South Wales 'Metro' updates" thread.

+

But if

If the Cardiff Central services are to go beyond Cardiff Bay then maybe it would make sense for these to run down the West side of the Queen Street to Bay lines and peel of from the West Side. Rather than the East side. That way there would be no conflicting moves.

So I wonder what is really happening ?.
They'll join from the west north of Bute town station and then share a track peeling off to the east. That's what all the planning documents and future renders show.
 

anthony263

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A idea that creeps up regularly is a Maesteg to swansea service however i believe it may not be popular as you'd struggle to have a journey times of 55 minutes or less . It was suggested using the Tondu to Margam branch but you'd seriously have to raise linespeeds on it plus a passing point somewhere along it
 

Western 52

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A idea that creeps up regularly is a Maesteg to swansea service however i believe it may not be popular as you'd struggle to have a journey times of 55 minutes or less . It was suggested using the Tondu to Margam branch but you'd seriously have to raise linespeeds on it plus a passing point somewhere along it
Can't see much demand for that to be honest. Is that why the OVE line from Tondu to Margam has been retained? It has had no traffic for years.
 
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They'll join from the west north of Bute town station and then share a track peeling off to the east. That's what all the planning documents and future renders show.
Do you have a link to hand?

Edit: Found a PDF. Doesn't show the junction between the line from Central to the Butetown branch but does show a cross over (of sorts between the two lines).

Shows that the new platform 1 (west side/Bute Street side) will be a pay platform.

Platform 2 will have provision to continue further into the Bay

Provision/space left for a Platform 3 which like Platform 2 will continue into the Bay. Plenty of space under a proposed footbridge for the third track.

The section between the new Butetown Station and the remodelled Bay station will be busy though!
 

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positron

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Do you have a link to hand?

Edit: Found a PDF. Doesn't show the junction between the line from Central to the Butetown branch but does show a cross over (of sorts between the two lines).
In one of those planning documents there's two tracks coming off to the west labelled passive provision or something.

The section between the new Butetown Station and the remodelled Bay station will be busy though!
Line of sight signalling should be a big help with that.
 

Caaardiff

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Electrification of Cardiff - Swansea would definitely open up opportunities for new bi-mode fleets. There's the talk of a number of new stations east of Newport and potential for an additional stopped service to Bristol, unconfirmed whether provided by TFW or GWR.
It would make more sense to have a Bristol - Swansea stopper service, potentially using 756's.

A Maesteg - Bridgend shuttle would require a new passing loop, mooted as being at Tondu.
Maesteg is just as close to Neath and Port Talbot as it is to Bridgend, and as such links to Swansea. With the addition of a passing loop I wonder if a Maesteg - Bridgend - Swansea service would work. Avoiding having to reintroduce the Tondu - Margam branch. It would create an hourly Swanline service between Cardiff/Bridgend and Swansea, meaning Pyle could be added to the swanline services and removed from some Manchester services. The Swanline services are underserved at 2 hourly, so could boost passenger numbers at those stations, as well as forming part of the South West Wales metro.
 

Nick Ashwell

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Electrification of Cardiff - Swansea would definitely open up opportunities for new bi-mode fleets. There's the talk of a number of new stations east of Newport and potential for an additional stopped service to Bristol, unconfirmed whether provided by TFW or GWR.
It would make more sense to have a Bristol - Swansea stopper service, potentially using 756's.

A Maesteg - Bridgend shuttle would require a new passing loop, mooted as being at Tondu.
Maesteg is just as close to Neath and Port Talbot as it is to Bridgend, and as such links to Swansea. With the addition of a passing loop I wonder if a Maesteg - Bridgend - Swansea service would work. Avoiding having to reintroduce the Tondu - Margam branch. It would create an hourly Swanline service between Cardiff/Bridgend and Swansea, meaning Pyle could be added to the swanline services and removed from some Manchester services. The Swanline services are underserved at 2 hourly, so could boost passenger numbers at those stations, as well as forming part of the South West Wales metro.
Is there capacity for a reversal at Bridgend or is your idea for a bay, which I would guess would also be needed for a shuttle to work?

Also would 756s be quick enough to not get in the way if new paths needed to be found for them on the mainline to Bristol/Swansea?

A second batch with 231 grade performance may be the best option for mainline operations, although EMUs may be a better bet if Swansea and Temple Meads were to be electrified
 

Peter Sarf

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Is there capacity for a reversal at Bridgend or is your idea for a bay, which I would guess would also be needed for a shuttle to work?

Also would 756s be quick enough to not get in the way if new paths needed to be found for them on the mainline to Bristol/Swansea?

A second batch with 231 grade performance may be the best option for mainline operations, although EMUs may be a better bet if Swansea and Temple Meads were to be electrified
I would assume the 756s under the wires would perform as well as a 231. Beyond the wires they might perform quite well enough but at the price of range.
 

positron

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Bridgend already has a western facing bay platform it's just never used.

I think 231s with pantos would be the best stock (100mph not 75).

Reinstating the old branch to the west would be cool but i suspect would have to be part of a larger Swansea metro.
 

Western 52

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Bridgend already has a western facing bay platform it's just never used.

I think 231s with pantos would be the best stock (100mph not 75).

Reinstating the old branch to the west would be cool but i suspect would have to be part of a larger Swansea metro.
The west bay at Bridgend connects to the Maesteg line only, no facing connection to the main line.
 

Caaardiff

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The bay platform only accommodates 2 cars anyway so would need extending.
A reversal would only mean a 5 minute dwell so could be possible if timed right.
 

daodao

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I wonder if a Maesteg - Bridgend - Swansea service would work.
What a roundabout route, and in any case, is there any demand?. There is a bus service from Maesteg to Port Talbot every 90 minutes (Mon-Sat 7am-7pm) that passes Port Talbot railway station, from which there are regular train services to Swansea.
 

Caaardiff

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It's not just about the routing, it's about the options it creates.
It ties in three things -
An extra Maesteg - Bridgend service then connections to regular services to Cardiff.
A direct link Maesteg - Swansea without having to change
An hourly rather than two hourly Swanline service without taking a path Bridgend to Swansea.

The bus journey time is 25 mins Maesteg - Port Talbot. The train from Port Talbot - Swansea is 20 mins up to 30 mins if Swanline. Allowing 10 mins to connect would be a fastest journey time of 55 mins and obviously dependant on a train being timed to connect with the bus in 10 mins.
The train from Maesteg - Bridgend is about 25 mins. The train from Bridgend - Swansea is about 32 mins up to 45 mins if Swanline. With a 5 min reversal at Bridgend, then the fastest journey time would be about 62 mins, so little time difference and no need to change bus or train.
 

positron

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Has anyone heard any updates on what's happening to the cwmbargoed line now the coal mine is closed?
 

Dai Corner

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That's ... Intriguing the mine is supposed to have shut down. I suppose there's gonna be some back and forth for a bit but nothing long term?
There are stockpiles to be moved; they didn't mine exactly a trainload at a time.

It's not clear how the enormous hole is going to be filled in. Conceivably there could be inward movements of landfill or similar for some time. If the Welsh Government find the money the branch could reopen to passengers.
 

positron

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There are stockpiles to be moved; they didn't mine exactly a trainload at a time.
Yeah that makes sense. I guess I just interpreted the mine shutting as them being done rather than just being done mining (which they legally should have been over a year ago...).

If the Welsh Government find the money the branch could reopen to passengers.
I really hope the do. A service up to Nelson and Trelewis would make a lot of sense. If they could do Trelewis down to Newport via Machen that'd be amazing but probably very expensive...
 

Rhydgaled

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Seems worth starting a new thread to discuss future aspects of the South Wales metro.

I was mostly thinking of Abergavenny as the natural end of the service due to the fact it has the capability of getting a bay platform and also as a Heads of the valley road interchange. So it's (growing) population isn't the only factor.
My own view is that Abergavenny would not be the ideal endpoint for a stopper on the southern end of the Marches. It might be good for road interchange, but for rail interchange it's near-useless. For this reason I would strongly argue for any new stopping services (to serve potnetial new stations such as Caerleon) to continue to Hereford where interchange with services towards Worcester is available. I would also argue that this would allow the Swansea-Manchester services and 'Gerald' to run non-stop between Newport and Hereford - if the stoppers turnback at Abergavenny the fast trains would also have to stop there to pickup passengers off the stopper who want to continue north. The bigger question in my mind is where the stoppers should come from at the other end...

If the Welsh Government find the money the branch could reopen to passengers.
I really hope the do. A service up to Nelson and Trelewis would make a lot of sense. If they could do Trelewis down to Newport via Machen that'd be amazing but probably very expensive...
Those early schematic maps of the Cardiff & Newport 'Metro' concept (example attached) certainly had Treharris-Newport on there, but via Pye Corner, Newport West and Royal Gwent Hospital (none of which would be passed through if using the current direct rail route from Machen to Newport) which leads me to fear it might have been intended as a tram or bus route.
SW_Metro.png

Personally, I think there should be a Gaer/Maes-Glas station (with the word 'Junction' in the title, just like 'Dovey Junction') at the place where Ebbw Vale to Newport services diverge from those heading from Ebbw Vale to Cardiff. This would allow interchange between all of the following (potential) services inspired by the above map:
  • Ebbw Vale - Newport
  • Ebbw Vale - Cardiff Central*
  • Abertillery - Newport
  • Abertillery - Cardiff Central*
  • Treharris - Caerphilly - Machen - Newport
  • Blackwood - Caerphilly - Machen - Newport
  • Treharris - Caerphilly - Cardiff Queen Street*
  • Blackwood - Caerphilly - Cardiff Queen Street*
If all the above ran hourly, you would have the target 'Metro' frequency of 4tph at Ebbw Vale line stations as far as Llanhilleth, and 2tph each to Blackwood, Treharris, Ebbw Vale and Abertillery (one each to Cardiff and Newport). 4tph would be terminating at Newport from the Ebbw Vale direction...

... Returning to the Marches stopper - turning 4tph back from Ebbw at Newport might be a bit of a stretch, so... should one of these each hour run on to Hereford as the Marches stopper? And possibly others to, Cheltenham Chepstow or Bristol? Or is having to change at Newport to reach Cardiff from Magor and Caerleon too big a drawback and all the Ebbw stuff should turnback in platform 4 at Newport?

* references to Cardiff Central here also include extensions beyond, such as to Swansea or Maesteg, while references to Cardiff Queen Street assume extensions beyond there to Ninian Park (and beyond), Barry (and beyond) and Penarth etc.

Swanline does not have to call at stations between Bridgend and Cardiff.
No, but I think it should as part of the 'South East Wales Metro' target to provide services every 15 minutes as widely as possible. If there are plans to increase the Maesteg services to that frequency right through to Cardiff then perhaps reconfigure the west-facing bay at Bridgend to allow the Swanlines to turnback there. Otherwise the intermediate stations on that stretch miss out on anything approaching the 'Metro' frequency, particularly while the Maesteg remains at 1tph.

If the Cardiff Central services are to go beyond Cardiff Bay then maybe it would make sense for these to run down the West side of the Queen Street to Bay lines and peel of from the West Side. Rather than the East side. That way there would be no conflicting moves.
Referring to the above map again, there are suggestions that the Aberdare services could be extended to Hirwaun in future. Personally, I hope they won't stop there and carry on to Glynneath and thence Swansea. Either way, extension makes the expected removal of toilets on those services (by introducing tram-trains) even harder to justify. I therefore feel strongly that the introduction of class 398s on the TAM (Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr) lines should become nothing more than temporary measure to facilitiate the purchase of a fleet of trams (and a depot for them) before the majority of the routes they will ultimately use can be built. Instead of TAM half the TAM services running to Cardiff Bay as currently planned, the long-term aim should be to extend the Coryton line to Taff's Well and move the 398s from TAM services onto the following:
  • Taff's Well - Coryton - Ocean Way - Newport Road / Cardiff East (starting with 2tph via the current infrustructure and supplementing that, probably at a much later date, with more on-street via Heath Hospital, Cardiff Castle and Cardiff Central (new tram platforms at street level))
  • Radyr - Ninian Park - Cardiff Central - Ocean Way - Newport Road / Cardiff East
The TAM services would then revert to class 756s, with my idea from the Aberdare line being 2tph Swansea - Glynneath - Aberdare - Cathays - Cardiff Queen Street - Cardiff Central - Ninian Park - Danescourt - Aberdare so that there are effectively 4tph between Aberdare and Cardiff Central (2 via Cathays and 2 via Ninian Park and Danescourt) for passengers who don't mind which route. These would either be new-build 756s (plus a few released by turning the Coryton line over to tram-trains to/from Cardiff Bay) or I'd get some 197s converted to tri-mode for the Rhymney line to release 756s from there. Either way, no additional 398s should need to be built for the tram extensions, just redeploy the 36 already ordered.
 

positron

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The above mentioned Theoritical services from Machen were tram-train this was from quite early when they were trams galore to show what you could do with light rail investment. The current Newport station has or will soon have capacity issues so that was part of the reasoning.

I don't have an issue with machen-caerphilly being done the tram train standards if it means it happens. I don't personally think they'd be the natural fit for the marches stoppers.
 

Peter Sarf

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My own view is that Abergavenny would not be the ideal endpoint for a stopper on the southern end of the Marches. It might be good for road interchange, but for rail interchange it's near-useless. For this reason I would strongly argue for any new stopping services (to serve potnetial new stations such as Caerleon) to continue to Hereford where interchange with services towards Worcester is available. I would also argue that this would allow the Swansea-Manchester services and 'Gerald' to run non-stop between Newport and Hereford - if the stoppers turnback at Abergavenny the fast trains would also have to stop there to pickup passengers off the stopper who want to continue north. The bigger question in my mind is where the stoppers should come from at the other end...


Those early schematic maps of the Cardiff & Newport 'Metro' concept (example attached) certainly had Treharris-Newport on there, but via Pye Corner, Newport West and Royal Gwent Hospital (none of which would be passed through if using the current direct rail route from Machen to Newport) which leads me to fear it might have been intended as a tram or bus route.
View attachment 149302

Personally, I think there should be a Gaer/Maes-Glas station (with the word 'Junction' in the title, just like 'Dovey Junction') at the place where Ebbw Vale to Newport services diverge from those heading from Ebbw Vale to Cardiff. This would allow interchange between all of the following (potential) services inspired by the above map:
  • Ebbw Vale - Newport
  • Ebbw Vale - Cardiff Central*
  • Abertillery - Newport
  • Abertillery - Cardiff Central*
  • Treharris - Caerphilly - Machen - Newport
  • Blackwood - Caerphilly - Machen - Newport
  • Treharris - Caerphilly - Cardiff Queen Street*
  • Blackwood - Caerphilly - Cardiff Queen Street*
If all the above ran hourly, you would have the target 'Metro' frequency of 4tph at Ebbw Vale line stations as far as Llanhilleth, and 2tph each to Blackwood, Treharris, Ebbw Vale and Abertillery (one each to Cardiff and Newport). 4tph would be terminating at Newport from the Ebbw Vale direction...

... Returning to the Marches stopper - turning 4tph back from Ebbw at Newport might be a bit of a stretch, so... should one of these each hour run on to Hereford as the Marches stopper? And possibly others to, Cheltenham Chepstow or Bristol? Or is having to change at Newport to reach Cardiff from Magor and Caerleon too big a drawback and all the Ebbw stuff should turnback in platform 4 at Newport?

* references to Cardiff Central here also include extensions beyond, such as to Swansea or Maesteg, while references to Cardiff Queen Street assume extensions beyond there to Ninian Park (and beyond), Barry (and beyond) and Penarth etc.


No, but I think it should as part of the 'South East Wales Metro' target to provide services every 15 minutes as widely as possible. If there are plans to increase the Maesteg services to that frequency right through to Cardiff then perhaps reconfigure the west-facing bay at Bridgend to allow the Swanlines to turnback there. Otherwise the intermediate stations on that stretch miss out on anything approaching the 'Metro' frequency, particularly while the Maesteg remains at 1tph.


Referring to the above map again, there are suggestions that the Aberdare services could be extended to Hirwaun in future. Personally, I hope they won't stop there and carry on to Glynneath and thence Swansea. Either way, extension makes the expected removal of toilets on those services (by introducing tram-trains) even harder to justify. I therefore feel strongly that the introduction of class 398s on the TAM (Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr) lines should become nothing more than temporary measure to facilitiate the purchase of a fleet of trams (and a depot for them) before the majority of the routes they will ultimately use can be built. Instead of TAM half the TAM services running to Cardiff Bay as currently planned, the long-term aim should be to extend the Coryton line to Taff's Well and move the 398s from TAM services onto the following:
  • Taff's Well - Coryton - Ocean Way - Newport Road / Cardiff East (starting with 2tph via the current infrustructure and supplementing that, probably at a much later date, with more on-street via Heath Hospital, Cardiff Castle and Cardiff Central (new tram platforms at street level))
  • Radyr - Ninian Park - Cardiff Central - Ocean Way - Newport Road / Cardiff East
The TAM services would then revert to class 756s, with my idea from the Aberdare line being 2tph Swansea - Glynneath - Aberdare - Cathays - Cardiff Queen Street - Cardiff Central - Ninian Park - Danescourt - Aberdare so that there are effectively 4tph between Aberdare and Cardiff Central (2 via Cathays and 2 via Ninian Park and Danescourt) for passengers who don't mind which route. These would either be new-build 756s (plus a few released by turning the Coryton line over to tram-trains to/from Cardiff Bay) or I'd get some 197s converted to tri-mode for the Rhymney line to release 756s from there. Either way, no additional 398s should need to be built for the tram extensions, just redeploy the 36 already ordered.
I agree as the basic instinct in me suggests the Coryton branch is ideal for tram-train beyond its end as well as at the other end (down the bay). Don't need a loo for those shorter journeys. The city line as far as Radyr makes sense for tram-train as well. Maybe a wasted resource as they get so close to each other at their extremities ?.
 

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