South Wales 'Metro' updates

[oglord]

So please explain the logic behind having rail infrastructure fully devolved to Northern Ireland, but not Wales?

Northern Ireland is not connected to the British network.

 

[Cardiff123]

Northern Ireland is not connected to the British network.

And? That's irrelevant, using that argument, control over rail infrastructure should not be devolved in Scotland either. If control over NR was fully devolved to Welsh Govt, they would get the spending needed for it allocated to them every year through the block grant, as they do for health, education, roads etc.

Anyway we're off topic now.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

So please explain the logic behind having rail infrastructure fully devolved to Northern Ireland, but not Wales?

You mean other than being separate from the rest of the UK rail network?

I've posted a thread in Speculation regarding the lack of joined-up cross border thinking regarding MetroWest and SWM. If anything for those on the border less devolution is prefereable

 

[oglord]

Fragmentation

And? That's irrelevant, using that argument, control over rail infrastructure should not be devolved in Scotland either.

Indeed. I thought it was universally agreed that fragmentation was bad for the rail industry. We shouldn't be creating even more!

 

[PaulHarding150]

Reason number 1124 why Welsh Govt/TfW need full control of the rail network in Wales. It's mad that Welsh Govt have to go begging to the DfT in London every time they want Network Rail to make an enhancement to the rail network in Wales (outside of the now fully devolved Core Valley lines).
And yes, Welsh Govt could choose to fund enhancements themselves, as we saw with the Ebbw Vale re-opening in 2008, but as control & powers over Network Rail are not devolved in Wales, they don't get any funding allocated to spend on rail infrastructure like Scotland and Northern Ireland do. Which is one reason why the Ebbw Vale re-opening was done on the cheap.

Remember, The Welsh Government were quite happy to reopen/build the Vale of Glamorgan/Ebbw Vale lines and all the associated stations when it suited them

 

[Cardiff123]

You mean other than being separate from the rest of the UK rail network?

I've posted a thread in Speculation regarding the lack of joined-up cross border thinking regarding MetroWest and SWM. If anything for those on the border less devolution is prefereable

It can be 150% guaranteed that without devolution and the Welsh Govt in Wales, the South Wales Metro wouldn't have even been thought about, let alone actually happening. The Valley lines would just be getting new DMUs to replace Pacers, with PRM'd 150s staying for the foreseeable future, and that would be it.

Remember, The Welsh Government were quite happy to reopen/build the Vale of Glamorgan/Ebbw Vale lines and all the associated stations when it suited them

Which is why, as I said, Ebbw Vale re-opening was done on the cheap as a single line, as the money for it had to come out of the overall Welsh Govt budget, which also has to be split between the NHS, education, councils etc. If rail infrastructure was fully devolved in Wales, the Welsh Govt's overall annual budget would increase to reflect this.

 

[oglord]

It can be 150% guaranteed that without devolution and the Welsh Govt in Wales, the South Wales Metro wouldn't have even been thought about, let alone actually happening. The Valley lines would just be getting new DMUs to replace Pacers and that would be it.

You cannot possibly make that assertion. British Rail were looking at electrifying the Valley Lines decades ago. Come back when something that isn't value-engineered into oblivion actually happens.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

You cannot possibly make that assertion. British Rail were looking at electrifying the Valley Lines decades ago. Come back when something that isn't value-engineered into oblivion actually happens.

The opertive word being looking!

The arguement here is very simple. Wales has 11% of GB track miles, 5% of the population and since 2010 has received only 2% GB's rail / enhancement spend. It's been a problem under BR, Railtrack and Network Rail and it's no wonder that people in Wales feel hard done by.

I don't have the figures to hand but I suspect that the north and south west of England suffer from the same investment bias towards London and the South East.

The counter argument of course is that Wales represents a smaller proportion of actual passenger journeys than it's population suggests but that's a circular arguement when it's the lack of investment that has made the Welsh network unattractive to potential passengers.

 

[Cardiff123]

The opertive word being looking!

Precisely. If investing in the Valley lines was being 'looked at' for 'decades' under BR, why didn't it actually happen? The short answer is because the Westminster govt in London wouldn't give BR the cash to actually do it!
It has taken until now, after the Welsh Govt spent years pushing it, for investment in the Valley lines to actually happen. And even then, UK govt is funding just £125m out of a £738m budget for it.

 

[PaulHarding150]

The arguement here is very simple. Wales has 11% of GB track miles, 5% of the population and since 2010 has received only 2% GB's rail / enhancement spend.

And what % of passengers?

 

[Cardiff123]

And what % of passengers?

Tomos answered that question in the last part of his post, as I suspect you're implying that low passenger numbers in Wales doesn't warrant investment in the network, but:

The counter argument of course is that Wales represents a smaller proportion of actual passenger journeys than it's population suggests but that's a circular arguement when it's the lack of investment that has made the Welsh network unattractive to potential passengers.

 

[Dai Corner]

So please explain the logic behind having rail infrastructure fully devolved to Northern Ireland, but not Wales?

No railway lines run from Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK?

 

[PaulHarding150]

Tomos answered that question in the last part of his post, as I suspect you're implying that low passenger numbers in Wales doesn't warrant investment in the network, but:

I would generally be interested in finding out the answer btw.

The Heart of Wales line is roughly 120 miles

Cardiff to London is 145 miles.

Hopefully you’re suggesting the government(s) spend 80% of what the spend on the GWML on the HoWL? Even excluding the recent electrification and new rolling stock that would be ridiculous.

You need to factor in other factors beyond population and land size.

And FWIW I’m all for extra rail infrastructure investment (just properly planed and justified expenditure

 

[Brissle Girl]

The Hart of Wales line is roughly 120 miles

Deer, deer!

 

[PaulHarding150]

Well spotted

 

[Envoy]

Surely, the Welsh Government got is wrong when they decided to re-build the Ebbw Vale line as single track? They simply did not allow for an easy upgrade back to double track in the event of increasing passenger numbers. Of course, the really big mistake was taken when the double track was removed in the first place. When did that happen and I presume it was done without any consultation with local authorities/politicians let alone the public?

 

[edwin_m]

I think the likes of Calvert-Bletchley and Leamside tell us that unless a proposal to restore service is already well advanced, by the time it is the track will have suffered from vegetation and theft to the extent that what is still there will need to be cleared away anyway.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

The Heart of Wales line is roughly 120 miles. Cardiff to London is 145 miles.

Hopefully you’re suggesting the government(s) spend 80% of what the spend on the GWML on the HoWL? Even excluding the recent electrification and new rolling stock that would be ridiculous.

No one is suggesting that! The Heart of Wales line is hardly typical of the Welsh rail network though.

The underinvestment on busy Welsh lines including the NWML and the SWML is chronic.

Just one example for you. There are circa 6,000 level crossings on the GB rail network. Of those 1500 or 25% are in Wales resulting in increased journey times on the railway and traffic congestion on the roads. Sure, some of those crossings are on lightly used lines like the HoW or the Cambrian Coast but there are plenty on lines that are used half a dozen or more tph.

 

[oglord]

Surely, the Welsh Government got is wrong when they decided to re-build the Ebbw Vale line as single track?

Not to mention the highly political and operationally nonsensical decision to run trains to Cardiff. Would that have happened without WAG intervention?

 

[Brissle Girl]

Not to mention the highly political and operationally nonsensical decision to run trains to Cardiff. Would that have happened without WAG intervention?

Would the line have re-opened at all without WAG intervention? Given the line has been successful in terms of passenger numbers (indeed almost too successful given overcrowding), I don't think the decision to route services to Cardiff was the wrong one - the problem was that there were no services to Newport as well.

And to those complaining that the line was only reopened as a single track route with an hourly service, being realistic it's much better to get a line reopened then put forward a gold plated scheme that never gets approved as it costs too much. It is very disappointing however that a decade has gone past without the promised improvements having materialised, and which always seem a couple of years away, doubly so as the infrastructure work was started and sits unfinished and unused for years now.

 

[oglord]

Would the line have re-opened at all without WAG intervention? Given the line has been successful in terms of passenger numbers (indeed almost too successful given overcrowding), I don't think the decision to route services to Cardiff was the wrong one - the problem was that there were no services to Newport as well.

It is impossible to say what would have happened, but what has happened is value engineered and undoubtedly highly political. Let us not forget that the line was supposedly reopened to passengers as a mitigation of the loss of steelworks jobs in Ebbw Vale and Newport. How does running trains from Newport's hinterland and western suburbs to Cardiff help Newport in any way?

the infrastructure work was started and sits unfinished and unused for years now.

On the instructions of the WAG!

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Would the line have re-opened at all without WAG intervention? Given the line has been successful in terms of passenger numbers (indeed almost too successful given overcrowding), I don't think the decision to route services to Cardiff was the wrong one - the problem was that there were no services to Newport as well.

And to those complaining that the line was only reopened as a single track route with an hourly service, being realistic it's much better to get a line reopened then put forward a gold plated scheme that never gets approved as it costs too much. It is very disappointing however that a decade has gone past without the promised improvements having materialised, and which always seem a couple of years away, doubly so as the infrastructure work was started and sits unfinished and unused for years now.

Good points well made. While in an ideal world there would be trains to Newport as well as Cardiff the Welsh Government's decision to favour Cardiff intially was undoubtedly correct as shown by low usage and abandonment of the bus shuttle to Newport in the line's early days.

The difficulty has always been that while passengers of the upper section of the line in Blaenau Gwent favour direct services to Cardiff over Newport for employment reasons, the reverse is true of the southern section with places like Rogerstone and Risca essentially being suburbs of Newport.

It's a difficult circle to square but to describe the WG decision to favour Cardiff as "nonsensical" is, well, nonsensical!

 

[oglord]

Good points well made. While in an ideal world there would be trains to Newport as well as Cardiff the Welsh Government's decision to favour Cardiff intially was undoubtedly correct as shown by low usage and abandonment of the bus shuttle to Newport in the line's early days.

Abandonment of the bus shuttle was because it took a ridiculously circuitous route that took far too long and involved changing from train to bus and vice-versa.

It's a difficult circle to square but to describe the WG decision to favour Cardiff as "nonsensical" is, well, nonsensical!

My actual expression was "operationally nonsensical". The line was originally built from Newport to Blaina, with the "Cardiff Curve" coming much later. A branch line train comes to within less than a mile of NWP, then travels ten miles in the opposite direction along the main line to CDF. That makes no sense operationally, does not mitigate for loss of steelworks jobs in Newport and is entirely political. There are dozens of trains from NWP to CDF that Ebbw Valley passengers can take, but anyone wanting to get to Newport faces a pointless 30-minute+ round trip to Cardiff first. Lunacy!

 

[Cardiff123]

On the instructions of the WAG!

Because Network Rail quickly blew the agreed budget. DfT instructed NR to abandon projects, notably electrification, for the exact same reasons in England.

It's also not been mentioned that TfW and Welsh Govt know that linking up Ebbw Vale to Newport with regular services needs to happen. This was originally planned to happen by next year, whether that happens now is of course dependent on what disruption to engineering projects is caused by the pandemic.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Unfortunately I can’t see the planned budget electrification being scaled back, or even cancelled there is a huge amount of preparation work ongoing to enable the project to proceed with as little pain as possible.

It pains me to say it, but this is probably the best time to push on with the scheme whilst passenger numbers are down so less people overall will be disrupted. Ideally it’ll all be ready for when the numbers return.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

Surely, the Welsh Government got is wrong when they decided to re-build the Ebbw Vale line as single track? They simply did not allow for an easy upgrade back to double track in the event of increasing passenger numbers. Of course, the really big mistake was taken when the double track was removed in the first place. When did that happen and I presume it was done without any consultation with local authorities/politicians let alone the public?

Singled in the 1980s I believe, during the many years when it was a freight only line.

 

[Cardiff123]

Unfortunately I can’t see the planned budget electrification being scaled back, or even cancelled there is a huge amount of preparation work ongoing to enable the project to proceed with as little pain as possible.

It pains me to say it, but this is probably the best time to push on with the scheme whilst passenger numbers are down so less people overall will be disrupted. Ideally it’ll all be ready for when the numbers return.

Unfortunately? Yes, it's very sad that after decades of under-investment, or more accurately, zero investment, that the Valley lines of South Wales are finally getting upgraded for this century.

The 'unfortunate' bit about it is that politics has got in the way of the southern section of the local network to Barry, Penarth and the Vale of Glam being upgraded as well

I know many on this forum would rather the Valley lines stay as purely heavy rail, with no electrification and new DMUs instead of what is planned, and I initially was sceptical, but the plans for the CVL have to be given a chance. Any electrification and upgrade of the CVL is better than nothing and if it's successful, hopefully it will justify more investment in, and expansion of the rail network in the rest of the SE Wales and beyond.

 

[MarkyT]

Singled in the 1980s I believe, during the many years when it was a freight only line.

No, it wasn't singled fully until the late 1990s. I designed a signalling scheme plan for the job in 1996 or 97 when working as a consultant for Railtrack at Swindon. I had no further involvement, but it was a rush job accomplished fairly soon afterwards as the track engineer had some serious concerns about track condition and wanted to avoid spending a great deal on renewals of both tracks. The scheme was to cobble together an acceptable single line from the best bits of the remaining double track section between Lime Kiln Sidings and Aberbeeg. Aberbeeg SB closed and Lime Kiln Sidings SB was downgraded to a crossing cabin, with token working from Park Junction introduced for the entire section to Ebbw Vale South GF, where a remote token instrument was to remain for lock-in at the steel works. If I recall correctly, it was originally TCB with acceptance levers on the single line between Park Jn and Lime Kiln Sidings, then TCB with some intermediate 2 aspect auto and distant signals en route in each direction to Aberbeeg, then token on the single line to Ebbw Vale. There were a lot of individual track circuit sections to cover the distance, so the scheme made appreciable savings on signalling maintenance too.

 

[Envoy]

So, Railtrack cut back the Ebbw Vale line to single track in the late 1990’s and the line was reopened to passenger traffic on 6 February 2008. Surely, a load of money would have been saved had it been made clear that the line would reopen to passenger traffic and that the 2 tracks should be retained and upgraded where needed?

 

[Envoy]

Unfortunately? Yes, it's very sad that after decades of under-investment, or more accurately, zero investment, that the Valley lines of South Wales are finally getting upgraded for this century.

The 'unfortunate' bit about it is that politics has got in the way of the southern section of the local network to Barry, Penarth and the Vale of Glam being upgraded as well

I know many on this forum would rather the Valley lines stay as purely heavy rail, with no electrification and new DMUs instead of what is planned, and I initially was sceptical, but the plans for the CVL have to be given a chance.

What has politics got to do with the fact that the lines between Cardiff & the coast are remaining heavy rail? I don’t recall anybody suggesting that DMU’s would be the favoured solution over electrification.