South Wales 'Metro' updates

[positron]

I think it would be political suicide to cut the 4tph promise so late in the game. For a perceived cost saving. Not to mention the more frequent trains is what will get people on them again. The solution isn't cutting WFH, the solution is road pricing to entice people to use the train rather than their car. We need a massive modal shift and trying to achieve that with 2tph just isn't going to happen.

Also is it really a "bailout" if it's a company owned by the government already? More just allocating required levels of funding?


I'm assuming what it does mean is Gabalfa and the new Treforest Estate aren't gonna happen anytime soon as they were supposed to be funded from revenue.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'm sure the travelling public would be happy with a reliable 1/2 hourly service to Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr Tydfil

Sorry I can't tell if you are joking. People living in the area have dealt with significant disruption over the last few years because of these plans. If the promised increase in frequency (which is why the disruption has been so bad -simplier electrification for the same level of service would have been much easier), doesn't happen then no, people will not be happy.

 

[CapitalStar378]

The infrastructure and rolling stock have been paid for, and the staff are presumably in place and largely trained. You could save costs, but at that point it's not at all clear that you'd save more than you lost in revenue, and you'd be achieving terrible value from your public assets. It's an obviously stupid idea in economic terms, but even in cash accounting terms you almost certainly wouldn't net out with more cash for at least another year because of the cost of laying people off.

And scaling down the timetable would ignore the potential big increases in usage by having a more frequent and faster network.

 

[Signal_Box]

Budget to plug ? Road charging, clean air zones etc you can hear the piggy bank rattling now

 

[56xx]

Given the travelling public have been promised a doubling of frequency for the last 5 years and have endured no end of disruption to achieve it, I doubt they will be remotely happy with being told that after all there will be no increase in services. And it would also mean that the majority of the infrastructure changes north of Pontypridd would have been unnecessary.

The infrastructure and rolling stock have been paid for, and the staff are presumably in place and largely trained. You could save costs, but at that point it's not at all clear that you'd save more than you lost in revenue, and you'd be achieving terrible value from your public assets. It's an obviously stupid idea in economic terms, but even in cash accounting terms you almost certainly wouldn't net out with more cash for at least another year because of the cost of laying people off.

Sorry I can't tell if you are joking. People living in the area have dealt with significant disruption over the last few years because of these plans. If the promised increase in frequency (which is why the disruption has been so bad -simplier electrification for the same level of service would have been much easier), doesn't happen then no, people will not be happy.

I'm not saying never.

The infrastructure in place will at some time in the future come into beneficial use. There has been a lot achieved on the core valley lines through Pontypridd. Electric trains should replace diesels during next year.

Rhymney Valley line however has the disruption to come with little infrastructure improvements to show at present. Rhymney Station has to be extensively rebuilt to construct a a second platform to allow 15 min frequency. This will involve removing the current staff offices and facilities and rebuilding further south. It will be difficult to achieve this while services are running. 1/2 hourly services can run on the present infrastructure with the passing loop at Tirphil.

When you have an hour between services as at present and then find a service has been cut short or cancelled (usually due a problem at the depot (Canton) it's a long wait.

I am fortunate to have car and can change my departure station to Bargoed or Pengam. I have given people waiting at Rhymney a lift to do just that on a number of occasions.

Staff shortages are a problem at the moment and the additional staff required will be new. so no job loses.

I just don't think it likely or absolutely essential that all services will or have to be at 15 min intervals by December 2024.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I'm not saying never.

The infrastructure in place will at some time in the future come into beneficial use. There has been a lot achieved on the core valley lines through Pontypridd. Electric trains should replace diesels during next year.

Rhymney Valley line however has the disruption to come with little infrastructure improvements to show at present. Rhymney Station has to be extensively rebuilt to construct a a second platform to allow 15 min frequency. This will involve removing the current staff offices and facilities and rebuilding further south. It will be difficult to achieve this while services are running. 1/2 hourly services can run on the present infrastructure with the passing loop at Tirphil.

When you have an hour between services as at present and then find a service has been cut short or cancelled (usually due a problem at the depot (Canton) it's a long wait.

I am fortunate to have car and can change my departure station to Bargoed or Pengam. I have given people waiting at Rhymney a lift to do just that on a number of occasions.

Staff shortages are a problem at the moment and the additional staff required will be new. so no job loses.

I just don't think it likely or absolutely essential that all services will or have to be at 15 min intervals by December 2024.

“Not by Dec 24” is quite a back pedalling on your previous statement.

TfW has already said 4tph may be phased with the peak hours first as the service beds in and to allow for continuing staff training, but that is purely for practical reasons. The intent is still to introduce the full frequency across the day as soon as possible.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sorry I can't tell if you are joking. People living in the area have dealt with significant disruption over the last few years because of these plans. If the promised increase in frequency (which is why the disruption has been so bad -simplier electrification for the same level of service would have been much easier), doesn't happen then no, people will not be happy.

Exactly.

 

[Mr. Angry]

To clarify I was merely suggesting that the ebbw service to Cardiff stop at the additional stops. I think the Chepstow and Bristol should also stop there. And Ebbw would still have it's other train the Newport Central (starting this December).

Was there a plan to increase Abergavenny-Cardiff to 2tph?

 

[anthony263]

Was there a plan to increase Abergavenny-Cardiff to 2tph?

Hourly Manchester, 2 hourly services alternating to Holyhead or Liverpool giving 2tph on the marches yes

 

[positron]

Was there a plan to increase Abergavenny-Cardiff to 2tph?

Hourly Manchester, 2 hourly services alternating to Holyhead or Liverpool giving 2tph on the marches yes

There should also be a stopper (as far as Aber) imo not just the expresses but I don't know if the Marches has the capacity. Nothing planned in the current metro phase anyway.

 

[positron]

It's going to be interesting how much the track lowering across the valleys for electrification impacts weather resilience on the CVL.

 

[snowball]

It's going to be interesting how much the track lowering across the valleys for electrification impacts weather resilience on the CVL.

Is there going to be much track lowering? I thought the whole point was that intermittent electrification was being used to reduce the number of such interventions at bridges.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this is an infrastructure updates thread.

Anything else, such as trip planning/reports, rolling stock or timetabling discussion and also anything of a speculative nature belongs elsewhere please.
edit: class 197 experiences can be posted at the following thread:

Class 197 Reports, Impressions etc

About time I got round to posting this, so here goes. Last Friday, I got a trip on the 197 from Llandudno to Blaenau and back. Unfortunately this wasn't a great trip in terms of the reliability of the unit - first of all it broke down at Tal y Cafn for half an hour, then continued to Llanrwst...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[positron]

Is there going to be much track lowering? I thought the whole point was that intermittent electrification was being used to reduce the number of such interventions at bridges.

As I understand it the PES will allow them to just lower track rather than needing to replace bridges. According to the electrification document there's 17 track lowering/slewing sites.

The Bay and Butetown work is slowly but surely taking shape. I suspect it won't be too long till there's something resembling a platform.

 

[Last Hurrah]

“Not by Dec 24” is quite a back pedalling on your previous statement.

TfW has already said 4tph may be phased with the peak hours first as the service beds in and to allow for continuing staff training, but that is purely for practical reasons. The intent is still to introduce the full frequency across the day as soon as possible.

From memory the December ‘24 (not the 24th December) completion date was conditional for the EU grant funding contribution to be paid

Covid then set the project back, so EU work that was being funded was rescheduled to be completed by Dec’24 to avoid the prospect of the EU saying having missed the deadline, the EU funding will no longer be forthcoming - unlikely perhaps, but with UK’s fractious relationship with the EU, it was wise not to take any chances

The last I heard, albeit some while ago, was Covid had set the project completion date back 6 months to June ‘25, but having made some good progress, a completion date of May’ 25 was seen as possible, subject of course to any further unforeseen issues arising

 

[MikePJ]

Two pictures of works progressing on the Cardiff Bay branch today.

1) taken through the glass of the bus shelter on Lloyd George Avenue - the roller is compacting new infill material that will eventually form the second platform.
2) Butetown station site now has two of these concrete structures that have been cast over the last week or two. This is the one nearer the Bay, which is still being cast. The other one, nearer the city, has been fully cast and had the formwork removed.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This queue for the single, faulty, remotely manned gate at Cathays just highlights the incompetence of TfW in the Metro area at the moment.

 

[Avowedsevern]

This queue for the single, faulty, remotely manned gate at Cathays just highlights the incompetence of TfW in the Metro area at the moment.

Ah yes, I hate that gate… TfW in a nutshell though, they want to expand passenger numbers without fixing any current bottlenecks

 

[PaulHarding150]

For those of you on Instagram, here is an areal shot of the north end of the bay branch showing the dueling of track over Herbert Street

Tom Ieuan Davies on Instagram: "Wintery Afternoons 2/? ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• Please like ❤️ and leave a comment if you like what you see ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• #wales #cardiff #visitwales #thewal

216 likes, 3 comments - tomaeshOctober 26, 2023 on : "Wintery Afternoons 2/? •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••�..."

www.instagram.com

 

[snowball]

For those of you on Instagram, here is an areal shot of the north end of the bay branch showing the dueling of track over Herbert Street

I can see it though I'm not on Instagram. I had to click a thing about cookies.

 

[CapitalStar378]

For those of you on Instagram, here is an areal shot of the north end of the bay branch showing the dueling of track over Herbert Street

Tom Ieuan Davies on Instagram: "Wintery Afternoons 2/? ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• Please like ❤️ and leave a comment if you like what you see ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• #wales #cardiff #visitwales #thewal

216 likes, 3 comments - tomaeshOctober 26, 2023 on : "Wintery Afternoons 2/? •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••�..."

www.instagram.com

I took the bay shuttle when I was home earlier this week and noticed this small section of double tracking, feels like they started and got bored .

The rest of the work is coming along, assume with all the concrete panels in place that the stations will start to come together quite quickly now. The new 'Butetown' station is taking shape and they were working on the Cardiff Bay station extended platform, very little done at the bay end so far though.

 

[Signal_Box]

For those of you on Instagram, here is an areal shot of the north end of the bay branch showing the dueling of track over Herbert Street

Tom Ieuan Davies on Instagram: "Wintery Afternoons 2/? ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• Please like ❤️ and leave a comment if you like what you see ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• #wales #cardiff #visitwales #thewal

216 likes, 3 comments - tomaeshOctober 26, 2023 on : "Wintery Afternoons 2/? •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••�..."

www.instagram.com

Blistering progress considering the amount of engineering time they’ve had over the last 18 months down there.

I took the bay shuttle when I was home earlier this week and noticed this small section of double tracking, feels like they started and got bored .

The rest of the work is coming along, assume with all the concrete panels in place that the stations will start to come together quite quickly now. The new 'Butetown' station is taking shape and they were working on the Cardiff Bay station extended platform, very little done at the bay end so far though.

The same as the Ebbw Vale doubling works, miles of enabling works and then track laid only for the money to run out.

How big is the hole in the TfW budget again?….

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

The same as the Ebbw Vale doubling works, miles of enabling works and then track laid only for the money to run out.

I presume this is a reference to the 2017 scheme being paused rather than the current one which is pretty much complete.

IIRC it wasn't so much that the "money ran out" but that Network Rail went way over-budget. Since that particular shambles predates TfW, I'm not sure how relevant it is anyway.

Apologies if I've misunderstood the point you're making!

 

[Signal_Box]

I presume this is a reference to the 2017 scheme being paused rather than the current one which is pretty much complete.

IIRC it wasn't so much that the "money ran out" but that Network Rail went way over-budget. Since that particular shambles predates TfW, I'm not sure how relevant it is anyway.

Apologies if I've misunderstood the point you're making!

Money running out aka over budget thus the same thing just not very eloquently point.

The CVL upgrade is also over budget, and delayed beyond the project landmarks - when projects go over budget and/or are way beyond the projected completion date things get cancelled or descoped. So my point has a very valid comparison with Ebbw attempt 1 and CVL current.

As an aside the planned works on the Rhymney valley, and at Queen street won’t bare fruit until signalling is transferred to CVL, the latest estimate is late 25 now.

 

[Krokodil]

The CVL upgrade is also over budget, and delayed beyond the project landmarks - when projects go over budget and/or are way beyond the projected completion date things get cancelled or descoped. So my point has a very valid comparison with Ebbw attempt 1 and CVL current.

I doubt that any construction projects are on budget at the moment, construction has seen some severe inflation.

 

[Signal_Box]

I doubt that any construction projects are on budget at the moment, construction has seen some severe inflation.

CVL is officially over budget and over timeline. Covid is sighted as the major reason, but how long can they blame that ?
What will the full final coat be, and will it be value for money against what’s delivered ? Remember if you’re a welsh taxpayer you’re directly being stung for this.

 

[Tom125]

I think we need to be mindful that in the 2020 lockdown the economy was effectively shut down- it was only in subsequent lockdowns that more was open. Getting materials shipped from across the world was delayed by international lockdowns.

Staff sickness was huge during the pandemic along with isolation rules.

In my public sector organisation we effectively lost two years. Two years that were just managing to keep the service up and running and hold it together. There were some days where 50% plus of the staff were off in isolation or sickness. We were managing not leading.

There will be scaring in education and health for quite some years to come- I assume the railway is the same.

 

[Brissle Girl]

CVL is officially over budget and over timeline. Covid is sighted as the major reason, but how long can they blame that ?

Until all the projects that were underway during COVID are completed. Once you’ve lost that time and seen costs rise, they are not going to reverse.

 

[Signal_Box]

Until all the projects that were underway during COVID are completed. Once you’ve lost that time and seen costs rise, they are not going to reverse.

Of course not no, so the sensible thing to do would be cancel the parts of rhe project which offer the least value in terms of value for money, and/or overall benefit.

You could deliver the Rhymney benefits without significant resignalling which is required as part of the bay works.

 

[bradleyd]

I thought people may appreciate a few shots of the new depot at taffs well and how it's looking now