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South West Trains.. Criminal?!

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IIBUA

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I am panicking right now. I was at staines and I asked a guard if I can go through as I was going to be late for work and I could see the train. (I know I should have left earlier), she said buy a ticket from the guard. I looked for the guard and he said to just buy a ticket from egham as we are already here. I tried to get to the ticket office but a guard stopped me and took my details and said he was going to report me. I was calm and composed. I answered his questions without any attitude. ( I was just expecting a fine). I later found out that there is a possibility to be prosecuted, taken to court and get a criminal record! for a £4 ticket. I am 22, about to graduate. I really don't need this right now. I know that I have to wait for some sort of letter. Will this be a court summoning or can I pay some sort of fine. If there is a fine, how much is it. I have had a penalty fare once before on the spot. can someone please advise if they have been through this before? :(

Thanks
 
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mikeg

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There will likely first be a letter stating SWT's intention to prosecute and asking for your version of events.

Only a court can issue a fine, they (SWT) may offer you an opportunity to settle out of court and the amount for this will be up to the train company. I suggest when the letter arrives you take advice from one of the fare advisors on the forum as to how best to reply. But essentially you want to state your version of events with a minimum of waffle and without making excuses, apologise profusely and offer to pay any of their legal/admin costs plus the full fare due.

By asking for a 'short fare' you have committed an offence under the Regulation of Railways act 1889, which carries a criminal record and a fine upon conviction. What the guard said was completely out of order but does not excuse your actions. I suggest trying to settle the matter out of court.
 

itsjamierawr

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By asking for a 'short fare' you have committed an offence under the Regulation of Railways act 1889, which carries a criminal record and a fine upon conviction. What the guard said was completely out of order but does not excuse your actions. I suggest trying to settle the matter out of court.

My interpretation of what the OP was saying is that the guard said to purchase a ticket from the office at Egham, not a ticket from Egham, since this was the final destination?

I second what mikeg said and set out the events as clearly as possible, leave out any waffle like "I'm 22 and nearly finished my degree", apologise for running late/not leaving enough time to get a ticket and say in future you will allow more time and buy before boarding. Most likely if this is your first time it'll be an "admin fee" (or out of court settlement) plus the cost of the fare, they could go easy on you given two members of staff gave you clearance to avoid two opportunities to pay but given the lack of proof to that (if someone said to you "oh the guard said" or "the man on the platform said" then you would probably question it too!) then it is usually no more than that, however it could stretch as far as a prosecution (worst case).

Perhaps giving full details of your journey, including the time of the train you boarded from Stains when they ask for your version of events they *might* be able to trace the staff involved?
 

mikeg

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My interpretation of what the OP was saying is that the guard said to purchase a ticket from the office at Egham, not a ticket from Egham, since this was the final destination?

Ah I understand. In which case it may not even be a RoRA prosecution but a byelaw one for failing to buy the ticket at the first available opportunity. Something along the lines of 'Entering a train... without a ticket entitling travel'...
But we shall see when the letter arrives. If it is a byelaw prosecution rather than RoRA 1889, then there is no criminal record for this.

In the meantime, try not to worry too much.
 

Via Bank

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I am panicking right now. I was at staines and I asked a guard if I can go through as I was going to be late for work and I could see the train. (I know I should have left earlier), she said buy a ticket from the guard. I looked for the guard and he said to just buy a ticket from egham as we are already here. I tried to get to the ticket office but a guard stopped me and took my details and said he was going to report me. I was calm and composed. I answered his questions without any attitude. ( I was just expecting a fine). I later found out that there is a possibility to be prosecuted, taken to court and get a criminal record! for a £4 ticket. I am 22, about to graduate. I really don't need this right now. I know that I have to wait for some sort of letter. Will this be a court summoning or can I pay some sort of fine. If there is a fine, how much is it. I have had a penalty fare once before on the spot. can someone please advise if they have been through this before? :(

Thanks

It is your responsibility to buy your ticket at the first opportunity, preferably before you get on the train. Arriving late is no excuse, you should arrive in time to queue for a ticket.

You could argue that the inspector at the gateline let you through and told you you could pay later (she wouldn't have been a guard—a guard specifically means someone in charge of the doors and ensuring the train's safety, who may also sell tickets.) But you may well have trouble proving this in court. If DaveNewcastle appears, I'm sure he will offer some more legally-qualified advice.

Unfortunately, the fact you have a previous penalty fare on record (presumably with SWT) makes it more likely they will try to prosecute. But we won't know until their letter arrives.
 

Mag_seven

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You could argue that the inspector at the gateline let you through and told you you could pay later (she wouldn't have been a guard—a guard specifically means someone in charge of the doors and ensuring the train's safety, who may also sell tickets.)

Why are TOC staff allowed to let ticketless travellers through gates? What is the point on having them if TOC staff just wave ticketless passengers through, opening them up to fines and penalty fares?
 

Agent_c

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Why are TOC staff allowed to let ticketless travellers through gates? What is the point on having them if TOC staff just wave ticketless passengers through, opening them up to fines and penalty fares?

Indeed, surely this is some sort of entrapment
 

NSEFAN

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The railway byelaws do state that if an authorised person allows it, a passenger may travel without a valid ticket. If this is the case, then I cannot see how the passenger is guilty of an offence, provided they attempted to obtain a ticket at the first opportunity thereafter. You would probably need to prove that the member of gateline staff did indeed allow entry on this basis, otherwise you are by default guilty of the offence due to its strict liability nature.
 

DaveNewcastle

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IIBUA, please don't be too concerned. If the facts are exactly as you have reported them, and nothing else relevant is missing from your report, then you were authorised to travel on the understanding that you would buy your ticket at a later point in your journey (which includes the destination station). There was no 'entrapment'. There is no Criminal Offence. There is no 'fine' to be paid, just the fare for the journey which seems is still due to be paid.

The complications are in how and when you respond to the simple request for further information, and I have a few points to make about this:-

- If it is a regular / daily journey, is there any chance you can chat to the member of platform staff who gave you the instruction to travel tomorrow and thank them for their help, and ask if they could assist you further by confirming their instruction to the Revenue Investigations team when asked, and giving you their name for the record?

- the Officer who questioned you at the destination will have submitted a report to the Revenue Investigations team, and there is a possibility that they had positioned themselves to intercept people who were attempting to leave the station rather than to make their way to the nearest ticket seller. You will have to be clear in your own mind about that - if you were unambigously headed for the nearest ticket selling office or machine, then that is a matter of fact which absolves you of blame.

You will be asked to explain the circumstances, and that is not something to be worried about, but you do need to have the facts available to you to confirm the details, and those should be easier to obtain now, rather than a few months down the line when the question is asked.

However, if your report on here has picked out elements which support your innocence but in fact you were demonstrably hoping to escape without payment, then, there is little point in asking the platform staff for assistance, and every good reason to fear that you will be required to provide an explanation for your apparent Criminal activity - only you, and the Railway Investigator will know which scenario is true!

To respomd to some of the replies from other on here (and repeating my comments above):-

The previous Penalty Fare is of no consequence.

Railway staff are perfectly entitled to 'wave passengers through' where there is an acknowledged agreement to pay.

There was no 'entrapment'.

There is no Criminal Offence *.

There is no 'fine' to be paid *.

[* unless there are other relevant facts]
 
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