South West Trains Flexible Ticketing news?

[tobie]

hi,

I commute from Portsmouth to Waterloo 2 or 3 times weekly.

following government policy, and after trials and research, it looks like franchises are introducing flexible ticketing (carnet style) that provide daily season ticket costs for irregular commuters. (see)

It looks like Govia Thameslink Railway and c2c are up first, and Southern did a pilot and look to be bringing in the carnet style commuter cards soon. I've been looking for news about South West Trains plans, but I can't see anything.

It seems that their franchise agreement is old and does not commit SWT to these forms of ticketing (though they are obliged to have a "Smart Card Project Manager". (details)

It looks like refranchising for SWT starts in November 2015, with the new franchise to begin in June 2017 (details)

So, does anyone have background on SWT and flexible ticketing?

cheers!

 

[swt_passenger]

hi,

I commute from Portsmouth to Waterloo 2 or 3 times weekly.!

So presumably you already use a season, as a 7 day season saves money on two journeys?

 

[tobie]

So presumably you already use a season, as a 7 day season saves money on two journeys?

Thanks for your suggestions for current travel.

My query is about timings for SWT implementation of flexible, carnet style tickets applied to season ticket ticket cost structures, an example os Southern's flexiseason trial.

I've just seen an announcement from SWT about "South West Trains Smart" which runs on the ITSO platform that is required for flexible ticketing.

There is a Q&A there, with the question "When will flexible ticketing (i.e. part time Season Tickets) be made available?", answer is:

The Department for Transport has asked train companies in the South East if they would be willing to be involved in an initiative to look at ways of providing flexible ticketing. South West Trains has confirmed it would definitely like to be involved and is keenly awaiting further guidance from the Government.

So this sounds promising, but does not give any indication of timing.

 

[74A]

I doubt anything will happen until the new franchise

 

[swt_passenger]

The thing is with the relative costs being what they are, there's very little 'headroom' to play with. A part time season on this route cannot be reduced pro-rata in comparison to the 7 day season, (£122) as it then becomes too low compared to the Anytime day (£69)

 

[tobie]

I've no insight about cost the structure of flexible season tickets. As I understand it, across all franchises, these tickets are not quite yet here. The only model I know about, that has been delivered, is Southern's flexiseason, and I believe that was a no cost, limited trial.

For what it's worth, and to express personal hopes, I'm not expecting a carnet that delivers 1/7 weekly season ticket cost per day travel. I'm hoping for something that let's me go to work for 2 or 3 days per week that costs less than someone who travels to work for 5 days. I think that is not unreasonable.

Anyway, to return to the topic, does anyone have news about the timing of flexible season ticket roll-out for SWT?

 

[bunnahabhain]

My concern as a revenue enforcer with a Carnet style ticket is that they're brilliant for long distance services where you're guaranteed to check the traveller, but for a short distance route where you're going to struggle to get through the train you could leave the system open to fraud. If it worked on a smartcard basis and you check in to validate the ticket for that day, then I can see how revenue can be protected, but on paper tickets I think its too much of a faff. Likewise I don't really see why seasons should be for anything less than 7 days, as the discount is a reward for buying in bulk which you'd not really be doing if you only travelled two or three days a week. On my patch we have a small number of 4 day seasons available, I've never sold one however.

 

[tobie]

If it worked on a smartcard basis and you check in to validate the ticket for that day, then I can see how revenue can be protected

My sense is that flexible season ticketing is dependent on ITSO platform, that is being promoted as a smart ticketing system.

So c2c for example link features like flexible season tickets and rewards for off peak travel to their smart card.

For sure revenue protection would be a key issue, and the ideal would be that a system that enabled features like flexible season ticketing, using touch in and touch out systems, would stop fraud and also support features that allowed fairer travel costs.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Or maybe a reward system so that every x number of journey you get a free days travel? I'm afraid I still don't think discounting short period seasons is a good idea from a revenue point of view and as the government seem insistent that the railway must make a profit I see it as a detrimental move. However that would be for another debate as I see no reason why the railways need to make a financial profit as the economy benefits from them tenfold in other ways.

 

[tobie]

Just to add, my initial question is not based on something I hope will happen. Current Gov policy goes like this:

“We know that more people are working part-time or from home, and do not have to travel into the office every day. It is vital that we develop a more flexible ticketing system that matches the changing patterns of work and gives better value for money to passengers who are not daily commuters. We know that some operators are already well advanced with their plans, and this research is an important next step in making flexible ticketing a reality.”

these commitments are being implemented via franchisees through changes to the "Committed Obligations" that describe and limit the terms under which they operate.

What I'm looking for is some detail on when SWT will implement a specific detail of the South East Flexible Ticketing (SEFT) that allows flexible or carnet style season tickets.

 

[swt_passenger]

What I'm looking for is some detail on when SWT will implement a specific detail of the South East Flexible Ticketing (SEFT) that allows flexible or carnet style season tickets.

I don't think anyone will know anything you haven't already found (in your above web links), commercial stuff is kept very much in the background.

Why not ask SWT during this weeks web chat?

 

[tobie]

Why not ask SWT during this weeks web chat?

Thanks, I'll do this.

I'm also seeing my MP Flick Drummond this Friday, to see if she is willing to lobby Claire Perry (as Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Department for Transport) on behalf of constituency commuters.

So please let me know if there is anything you would like me to emphasise.

 

[infobleep]

My concern as a revenue enforcer with a Carnet style ticket is that they're brilliant for long distance services where you're guaranteed to check the traveller, but for a short distance route where you're going to struggle to get through the train you could leave the system open to fraud. If it worked on a smartcard basis and you check in to validate the ticket for that day, then I can see how revenue can be protected, but on paper tickets I think its too much of a faff. Likewise I don't really see why seasons should be for anything less than 7 days, as the discount is a reward for buying in bulk which you'd not really be doing if you only travelled two or three days a week. On my patch we have a small number of 4 day seasons available, I've never sold one however.

If someone makes 40 journeys 5 days a week consecutively they can get a discount but if they make the same number of regularly journeys, but spread out over 40 weeks, they can't. This is especially critical if one of the regular journeys is in the evening peak and the return is in the morning peak the following day. To me that doesn't seem fair. It is the same number of journeys, just in a different time span.

Life is unfair of course. However it's situations like this that encourage people to find ways to save money on the trains. They look for anomalies. Sometimes these leads to the railways losing more money than they would have done had they offered a discount on 40 tickets, since the person wouldn't have resorted to other means to do their journey more cheaply. However no doubt the numbers seeking anomalies is smaller than those who'd just buy the extra tickets each week, so overall they don't lose out.

The fares workshops that get run by this forum are an example of how people wish to learn the system to play it where possible.

 

[tobie]

Here's an update to the initial post.

Some positive news from parliament, suggesting that "South West Trains and Abellio Greater Anglia plan to introduce smart seasons on their services in January 2016"

http://www.parliament.uk/written-qu...ents/written-question/lords/2015-10-26/HL3014

Excellent, fingers crossed for a new ticketing product from SWT in the new year!

 

[mattdickinson]

Here's an update to the initial post.

Some positive news from parliament, suggesting that "South West Trains and Abellio Greater Anglia plan to introduce smart seasons on their services in January 2016"

http://www.parliament.uk/written-qu...ents/written-question/lords/2015-10-26/HL3014

Excellent, fingers crossed for a new ticketing product from SWT in the new year!

The Stansted Express ticket machines at Liverpool Street have now been fitted with ITSO card readers (not active as yet.)

 

[plcd1]

And yet Roger Ford tweeted earlier this week that the DfT were "privately" confirming that SEFT is now "binned".

I suspect the strategy has changed to one of delivery via the individual TOCs and not some overarching project team. I wonder if budget cuts are the reason? I've long pondered quite what SEFT was ever meant to be achieving but that's just me being my old cynical self.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect the strategy has changed to one of delivery via the individual TOCs and not some overarching project team.

Which isn't going to be an awful lot of use where more than one TOC is involved. Do we have to sleepwalk into the abolition of RSP?

 

[mattdickinson]

And yet Roger Ford tweeted earlier this week that the DfT were "privately" confirming that SEFT is now "binned".

I suspect the strategy has changed to one of delivery via the individual TOCs and not some overarching project team. I wonder if budget cuts are the reason? I've long pondered quite what SEFT was ever meant to be achieving but that's just me being my old cynical self.

I wouldn't be too surprised if eventually all ticketing except for seasons in the South East were subcontracted to TfL (using Contactless Payment Cards and possibly the back office version of Oyster)

 

[TEW]

Is the SWT scheme flexible season tickets or just ordinary season tickets on Smartcards? The latter is very close now, January 2016 seems reasonable. Non-London flows have been available on Smartcard for years now. Tickets from Rowlands Castle to Woking into London Terminals, and Zones 1-6 Travelcard seasons are available on Smartcard too now, and have been since the start of December. Extending validity to London to more stations from January 2016 seems pretty likely.

 

[tobie]

Is the SWT scheme flexible season tickets or just ordinary season tickets on Smartcards?

That's a good point, this might be a commitment to expanding the touch-in infrastructure for existing smart seasons and is not the same thing as implementing flexiseasons.

 

[trevmonk]

Here's an update to the initial post.

Some positive news from parliament, suggesting that "South West Trains and Abellio Greater Anglia plan to introduce smart seasons on their services in January 2016"

http://www.parliament.uk/written-qu...ents/written-question/lords/2015-10-26/HL3014

Excellent, fingers crossed for a new ticketing product from SWT in the new year!

The parliamenentary question was about flexible ticketing. I take this to mean season tickets that can be used like carnets i.e. a set number of journeys stored on a card which can be debited as they are used. However, the answer given seemed to refer only to smart ticketing schemes, which is presumably just the smartcard technology such as the Key.

Although normal seasons are available on smartcards has anyone actually introduced a proper flexible season yet? I noticed a Smart Flexi season listed on brfares for my St Albans - London Thameslink journey but no idea how you buy one.

In November the Guardian said the only sign of a flexible ticket scheme was a trial on Southern, with a grand total of 65 participants!
http://www.theguardian.com/money/20...on-of-more-affordable-season-tickets-in-doubt

 

[30907]

The thing is with the relative costs being what they are, there's very little 'headroom' to play with. A part time season on this route cannot be reduced pro-rata in comparison to the 7 day season, (£122) as it then becomes too low compared to the Anytime day (£69)

Longer distance season tickets (at least on the old Southern, I suspect right across the SE) have for many years been priced at much less than the equivalent of 4-5 daily return fares which is normal for shorter distances. I suspect part of the thinking was that people wouldn't necessarily be travelling 5 days a week for such a lengthy journey (time-wise). The privatisation fares regime sets that (almost) in stone, otherwise the TOCs would have responded to the changing pattern of commuting by altering the ratio.

 

[tobie]

Here's an update to my original post, a paragraph in Grayling's recent statement regarding the terms of South Western rail franchise deal:

The use of smart cards will be expanded, and there will be a new smart card product, automatically offering the cheapest walk-up single or day return fare. A new flexible season ticket will benefit people working fewer than 5 days a week, there will be a discount offered for people buying 12 consecutive monthly season tickets, and new discounts for student travel. Season, single and return tickets will be made available on smart cards across all of the franchise.

This is welcome news, though there is not much detail on this flexi-season, anybody seen a discussion regarding how this will work in practice?

 

[wibble]

Here's an update to my original post, a paragraph in Grayling's recent statement regarding the terms of South Western rail franchise deal:



This is welcome news, though there is not much detail on this flexi-season, anybody seen a discussion regarding how this will work in practice?

I reckon this will be some sort of capping - e.g. if you travel from Portsmouth - Waterloo once in a week, you'll be charged the normal daily fare. Travel 2 or more times in a week and the total fare you pay won't exceed the 7 Day season price.

For an annual, it'll be the same thing - buy 12 consecutive months, you won't pay more than the price of an annual season (which is based on 10 months 13 days of travel).

 

[infobleep]

I reckon this will be some sort of capping - e.g. if you travel from Portsmouth - Waterloo once in a week, you'll be charged the normal daily fare. Travel 2 or more times in a week and the total fare you pay won't exceed the 7 Day season price.

For an annual, it'll be the same thing - buy 12 consecutive months, you won't pay more than the price of an annual season (which is based on 10 months 13 days of travel).

That's not flexible though as you still end up paying the 7 day price.

What about customers travelling from Guildford to Portsmouth? 5 daily returns are cheaper than a weekly deals ticket.

 

[infobleep]

Just dawned on me, the conductive monthly season ticket won't suit the company who advertises a season ticket loan type of scheme. I can't remember all the details but they advertise on LBC and it certainly isn't as cheap as what First / MTR might offer, we're it buy 12 and only pay for 10 and 13 days.

Of course I imagine it will only apply to season tickets priced by First / MTR and will probably be other restrictions to will affect some people.

I'd like a multi just scheme for day single or return tickets and period return train tickets. Buy 12 for the price of 10 etc. So bulk discount. That encourages repeat use of trains by thos how don't travel consecutively every day for a month.

 

[wibble]

That's not flexible though as you still end up paying the 7 day price.

What about customers travelling from Guildford to Portsmouth? 5 daily returns are cheaper than a weekly deals ticket.

So are you suggesting that they should pay less than the 7 day price?

Agree that it wouldn't work for a Guildford to Portsmouth commuter, but there could be a season ticket price in that direction of travel only available on smart/barcode ticketing.

 

[jon0844]

The way GTR spoke of their system working was to charge equivalent to one week or something, but allow the usage to be made over a longer time.

I don't know the finer details but imagine say being capped at the price for a week when you make a certain number of journeys (I'd assume 7 but maybe weekends wouldn't count or something?)

This is when it would become vital to touch in and out to activate each day properly, and would also mean you then have the issue of what to do if getting a season for places without readers.

Hence why I don't think The Key yet has this facility?