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How can overcrowding on trains from Southampton Central be appreciated?

zwk500

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The Cruise Saver trains were operated by DRS, but evidently they couldn't make it work either. I guess the cruise companies / customers didn't want to pay for the train and it was cheaper to let people make their own way to Southampton.
My recollection was that the cruises wanted the train. What didn't work was getting a fast path into Waterloo with loco hauled stock and the restrictions on departure times in between the extremely intense SWML traffic.

The best option would be to lengthen XC, so their new Voyagers can't come soon enough.
 
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Snow1964

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To balanced the debate, all operators XC, SWR and GWR (and should include Southern as they also serve Southampton) know cruise ship schedules are booked about 2-3 years in advance.

They are even longer than UK timetable planning, so they already know the busy days for 2025 and part of 2026.

Quite honestly if the railway cannot strengthen a service or schedule a relief (or cruise special) with 2 years notice then you have to wonder if they are interested in carrying extra passengers comfortably.

It's not clear to me why they would rather let coach operators have the income and profit.
 

Dr Hoo

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Given that cruise passengers will disperse over the whole country, what destination, route and calling pattern would you propose for this relief/special?
What rolling stock with appropriate luggage space would you recommend?
 

yorksrob

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Surely a large proportion of these passengers, although dispersed will be travelling via London, so a relief in the wake of the London express would be suitable. You could even run one via the Portsmouth direct if need be.
 

Kite159

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They are also removing calls over the summer at Winchester and Basingstoke, which might help cruise ship passengers heading north by diverting 'local' passengers to SWR.
Ah yes the massive issue of sheer overcrowding south of Reading, which outside cruise turnaround days isn't nearly as bad as the section north of Reading* or the section between Coventry & Wolverhampton.

(You can be on a full & standing voyager heading south into Reading and have a near private coach beyond)
-----
As for running boat trains, how will they cope with the possibility that the boats could run late (ie rougher than expected seas), will the train simply go without the passengers or will it wait for upto X hours then departing out of path. Assuming passengers are willing to switch from using their cars to reach the cruise terminal to the more expensive train, especially when it involves XC or going via London.
 

zwk500

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Surely a large proportion of these passengers, although dispersed will be travelling via London, so a relief in the wake of the London express would be suitable. You could even run one via the Portsmouth direct if need be.
Except the relief would be largely empty, as all the cruise passengers would have seen the express to London being faster and piled onto that one. SWR doesn't do seat reservations normally so it would be a bit of a free for all.
As for running boat trains, how will they cope with the possibility that the boats could run late (ie rougher than expected seas), will the train simply go without the passengers or will it wait for upto X hours then departing out of path.
This is a big issue with excursions linked to events generally. On today's railway there's much less capacity to simply run late and deal with it.
 

yorksrob

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Except the relief would be largely empty, as all the cruise passengers would have seen the express to London being faster and piled onto that one. SWR doesn't do seat reservations normally so it would be a bit of a free for all.

This is a big issue with excursions linked to events generally. On today's railway there's much less capacity to simply run late and deal with it.

If these periods are that busy, I should imagine a queueing system as employed at Castle Carey during the Glastonbury festival might be useful.
 

zwk500

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If these periods are that busy, I should imagine a queueing system as employed at Castle Carey during the Glastonbury festival might be useful.
They're busy enough to cram the trains, but it's not the same as a football match. It would struggle to justify the staffing, setup costs and inconvenience to normal travellers to have a queuing system for Cruise disembarkation days.
 

yorksrob

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They're busy enough to cram the trains, but it's not the same as a football match. It would struggle to justify the staffing, setup costs and inconvenience to normal travellers to have a queuing system for Cruise disembarkation days.

In that case, worth trying a follow on relief service to see how it goes.
 

The exile

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In that case, worth trying a follow on relief service to see how it goes.
If at all, what you actually do is run the relief just in front of the train it’s relieving. What Is find interesting are all the comments that “the railway” must “do something”. Shouldn’t the onus be on the organisers of large events (or in this case cruises likely to dump several thousands of people somewhere they don’t actually want to be) to ensure arrangements for “dispersal” are in place?
 

Peter Mugridge

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How to you account for 17k potential passengers ? How many coaches is that and what are the pathways ? Do you account for 17k passengers or a percentage based on potential alternative travel options ? What about your regular passenger flows ?
It'll actually be 34,000 passengers - 17,000 off the ships; another 17,000 on the ships.

Even if only a small proportion of those opt for rail, it's a substantial extra volume and as others have said a lot of them will be dispersing via London so there probably is a case to look again at running boat trains. The stock can bring embarking passengers to Southampton and return with the disembarking passengers.

The real difficulty is going to be that it is not a regular flow; there will be some days like this but other days with no cruise ships in at all. That then returns us to the old headache of stock utilisation although it wouldn't be impossible to negotiate with the various shipping companies to try to spread the loadings out ( which would help smooth things for the port as well ). There is a long lead time on that sort of negotiation, though - ship schedules are planned at least three years ahead in most cases.

All this means there is no short term solution, and a longer term strategy is going to require multiple parties to negotiate together - the railway, the port, the cruise lines... and then there is the question of reliabilty and whether or not a through ticketing option can be included within the cruise fare. Get that aspect sorted and with a return to central London luggage check in to make it more seamless for the passengers, it'll probably work. It'll still take a long time to do, though - and would work much better with the lines into the port itself rather than Southampton Central being used.
 

yorksrob

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If at all, what you actually do is run the relief just in front of the train it’s relieving. What Is find interesting are all the comments that “the railway” must “do something”. Shouldn’t the onus be on the organisers of large events (or in this case cruises likely to dump several thousands of people somewhere they don’t actually want to be) to ensure arrangements for “dispersal” are in place?

Fair point, however at least the cruise dockings are quite predictable.
 

Snow1964

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Surely a large proportion of these passengers, although dispersed will be travelling via London, so a relief in the wake of the London express would be suitable. You could even run one via the Portsmouth direct if need be.
Some would be.

But have to remember places like Leeds are further west than Southampton and why would anyone with luggage deliberately deviate via London and need to change using the tube if they have direct train northwards from Southampton.

Of course quality of train, seat and ticket availability and price will be factors, but can't assume people want the further routing just because it suits a pre-covid non leisure service pattern.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that there will be cruise connections to HS2 at Old Oak Common in future either.
 

12LDA28C

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My recollection was that the cruises wanted the train. What didn't work was getting a fast path into Waterloo with loco hauled stock and the restrictions on departure times in between the extremely intense SWML traffic.

The best option would be to lengthen XC, so their new Voyagers can't come soon enough.

The Cruise Saver trains didn't run to or from Waterloo, they ran between Southampton and Glasgow or Edinburgh via the ECML or WCML.
 

pompeyfan

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is there even a valid path from Southampton up the mainline? I’ve had a quick off the top of my head think and I’m struggling to find a compliant one.
 

WesternLancer

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The Cruise Saver trains didn't run to or from Waterloo, they ran between Southampton and Glasgow or Edinburgh via the ECML or WCML.
Indeed - a point I was going to make as the offer to me was a train i could join in the midlands. This may have been a factor in their demand / popularity.

I'm not sure what cruise passengers from outside the south east actually do - the embarkation is usually from eg lunch time to about 4pm so some will drive on the day - I suspect a good number come to Southampton the day before perhaps and use local hotels . This must spread the load. Given the typical demographic and the amount of luggage many people seem to take with them I suspect using their own cars is popular - this the parking at terminals in Southampton (ie large bits of empty dock space) is presumably v popular.
 

duffield

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To balanced the debate, all operators XC, SWR and GWR (and should include Southern as they also serve Southampton) know cruise ship schedules are booked about 2-3 years in advance.

They are even longer than UK timetable planning, so they already know the busy days for 2025 and part of 2026.

Quite honestly if the railway cannot strengthen a service or schedule a relief (or cruise special) with 2 years notice then you have to wonder if they are interested in carrying extra passengers comfortably.

It's not clear to me why they would rather let coach operators have the income and profit.
As far as XC are concerned, it doesn't matter how much notice they have had of the cruise ship schedules. They still don't have the rolling stock, so they could only strengthen Southampton services by cancelling or short forming even more services than usual on other routes, leaving more passengers behind or in hellish conditions than is already the case.

Overcrowding and short forms on XC are entirely due to the DfT/government, XC's hands have been tied for years. I'm sure XC would be very happy to carry lots of extra passengers if the DfT would permit this.
 

theironroad

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is there even a valid path from Southampton up the mainline? I’ve had a quick off the top of my head think and I’m struggling to find a compliant one.

Pretty sure on a Sunday morning there will be, though pathing north of Wimbledon might be tricky until noon.
 

scotlass

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At 1115 today watched XC 5 car head to Man Pic. Full and standing not helped by cruise passengers with at least 3 cases per couple. A GWR 2 car trying to fit cruise passengers with luggage onto an already full train arriving at SOU heading West. Hardly a way to recruit repeat travel.

Tonight a back GWR pompy set had 4 coaches and empty, ironic.

Friends were on this train. Five cruise ships arrived back in Southampton on Saturday, including two that have 5000+ capacity. The 1115 XC from SOU was busy, but not half as bad as the inbound journey from BHM the Friday before, which had two lots of passengers crammed into one 5 car due to the overtime ban cancelling every intermittent train from Piccadilly.
 

Big Jumby 74

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is there even a valid path from Southampton up the mainline? I’ve had a quick off the top of my head think and I’m struggling to find a compliant one.
This is the sort of detail that will drive service availability, so excellent post in highlighting same.
Pretty sure on a Sunday morning there will be, though pathing north of Wimbledon might be tricky until noon.
The second part of your comment is very apt. How many on here are aware that a two line railway exists in that corridor on Sun mornings due to patrolling possessions. As above, it's all about the detail.
 

Dr Hoo

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If the cruise turn round day is Saturday what is the relevance of Sunday? Getting a bit confused.
 

pompeyfan

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Looking at RTT for Sunday, it doesn’t look like there’s any issues getting a path after all, several Q paths shown as football specials, with services from Portsmouth to Waterloo significantly reduced to provide stock and crew.
 

davews

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PIS at Clapham Junction this afternoon said that trains Waterloo to Southampton will be very busy this coming Sunday 26th. Is this cruise ship related or something else?
 

Snow1964

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PIS at Clapham Junction this afternoon said that trains Waterloo to Southampton will be very busy this coming Sunday 26th. Is this cruise ship related or something else?
Just 2 cruise ships Sunday (but very big ones)
Anthem of the Seas (returns 2 June)
Arvia (returns 9 June)

Southampton are also playing Football vs Leeds in London (Wembley), of course cheaper via West London line from Clapham Junction avoiding fare zone 1

.
 
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Wychwood93

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Our youngest is a Business Manager for a well known fast-food outlet in this area:


I am advised that there is a Westquay (centre middle) app. which provides, for local commercial outlets and probably others, details of assorted local events which will impact, in effect, their staffing levels. They tend to act on this information or, at least, know what to expect. The local events include cruise ships in and out, Saints home matches and other relevant information. It is not impossible for the assorted train operators which run through Southampton to access such data and, hopefully, act on it. I am well aware of the assorted constraints that they are under, but a bit of effort could yield some positive publicity. It would be good, but unlikely, to see a return of dedicated boat trains. Nothing wrong with wistful thinking! As a former CO4 at Northam Steel Terminal in Northam down yard, it was a sandwich heaven when boat trains ran down to the docks!
 

Grecian 1998

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As said above, Southampton FC are playing in the play-off final at Wembley on Sunday 26 May at 15:00. Almost 37,000 tickets sold. Morning trains to Waterloo arriving before 12:00 are likely to be very busy, along with evening trains departing Waterloo after 18:00 (slightly later if it goes to extra time and penalties).
 

pompeyfan

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It just goes to show that the business can react to significant uplifts in passengers with relatively little notice, that said reducing services on other lines is far from ideal (I know it happens regularly for rugby at Twickenham too, but there’s usually far more notice)

I’m a bit surprised they’ve not reduced the Salisbury services and pinched some stock and crew on that line of route as well.
 
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yorksrob

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Are there not enough peak time units available to cover extras without short forming other services ?
 

D6130

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Are there not enough peak time units available to cover extras without short forming other services ?
There were back in the 'seventies and 'eighties when we were a lad(s)....hundreds of 8-SUB lash-ups lying around at Wimbledon, Clapham Yard, Strawberry Hill, etc. That were then....but now is now! Is there such a thing as peak time now? ;)
 

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