Southdown Buses go to become part of go-Ahead

[DavyCrocket]

As of tomorrow (1 February 2023), Southdown Buses will become part of Go Ahead, Brighton & Hove. No change to routes or depot so far.

Please include your source - Mod

 

[Arbitor5]

Mod asks for source on OPs post. Here you go.

 

[Flange Squeal]

In addition to the above, according to the Hants & Surrey Bus Blog Facebook page the Southdown Managing Director Steve Wallis (who is also the administrator of the Southdown Buses Enthusiasts Group on Facebook) has posted the following on that group tonight.

I'm delighted to announce that with effect from 1st February, Southdown Buses will become a subsidiary of Brighton & Hove Bus and Coach Company and thus part of Go-Ahead Group”.

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[GusB]

Just to clarify - when adding a source, make sure there is a link and a relevant quote, enclosed within quote tags. It's also preferable to have the text copied and pasted, as screenshots are poor from an accessibility point of view (@Flange Squeal has kindly provided an example above).

 

[Hophead]

Am I right in thinking that Southdown has a bus dealership business?

 

[duncombec]

Am I right in thinking that Southdown has a bus dealership business?

I believe the business was divided some years ago, but the now Chartwell Bus Sales is what was the Southdown PSV dealership.

 

[MotCO]

Am I right in thinking that Southdown has a bus dealership business?

It certainly did. It was also set up many years ago by the former owners of Metrobus after they sold the company to Go Ahead. So they have got money twice from the Go Ahead group!

 

[Hophead]

I believe the business was divided some years ago, but the now Chartwell Bus Sales is what was the Southdown PSV dealership.

Thanks. Wasn't really expecting Metrobus to be branching out into the bus sales business

 

[GusB]

I'm puzzled by this particular operation; with Southdown originally being a company that was absorbed into Stagecoach South, I'm surprised that any other operator would get away with using the name.

Is it simply the case that any claim that Stagecoach has to the intellectual property has lapsed because they haven't used it for so long?

 

[ajs]

I'm puzzled by this particular operation; with Southdown originally being a company that was absorbed into Stagecoach South, I'm surprised that any other operator would get away with using the name.

My understanding is that
Southdown Motor Services Ltd was registered in 1915, and sold to Stagecoach in 1989.

In 1992 the company became dormant, and was renamed Sussex Coastline Buses Ltd.

At the same time, Portsmouth City Transport Ltd, which was also owned by Stagecoach, was renamed Southdown Motor Services Ltd, to stop someone else registering the name.

In 2003, Sussex Coastline Buses Limited was renamed back to Southdown Motor Services Ltd, and remained dormant until it was dissolved in August 2022.

None of this has anything to do with Southdown PSV Ltd (trading as "Southdown Buses"), a country bus operator based in Copthorne, near Crawley.

Hope this makes some sort of sense.

 

[GusB]

My understanding is that
Southdown Motor Services Ltd was registered in 1915, and sold to Stagecoach in 1989.

In 1992 the company became dormant, and was renamed Sussex Coastline Buses Ltd.

At the same time, Portsmouth City Transport Ltd, which was also owned by Stagecoach, was renamed Southdown Motor Services Ltd, to stop someone else registering the name.

In 2003, Sussex Coastline Buses Limited was renamed back to Southdown Motor Services Ltd, and remained dormant until it was dissolved in August 2022.

None of this has anything to do with Southdown PSV Ltd (trading as "Southdown Buses"), a country bus operator based in Copthorne, near Crawley.

Hope this makes some sort of sense.

Yes, it does - thanks!

It just puzzled me as to why such a famous name that was owned by a big conglomerate such as Stagecoach, wouldn't be "protected" in some way.

 

[busestrains]

I am certainly surprised that Go Ahead are interested in purchasing a very small independent. But i suppose the routes fit in well with the Metrobus operations and are in the same area. I doubt the Southdown brand will be kept for long. I reckon that within a few months or a year at the most Go Ahead will scrap the Southdown brand and close down Copthorne depot and move all of the routes and vehicles to their nearby main Crawley depot as ordinary Metrobus routes.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I'm puzzled by this particular operation; with Southdown originally being a company that was absorbed into Stagecoach South, I'm surprised that any other operator would get away with using the name.

Is it simply the case that any claim that Stagecoach has to the intellectual property has lapsed because they haven't used it for so long?

I don’t know the answer, but I guess a comparison could possibly be made with the ‘Alder Valley’ name - and a very similar logo! - being resurrected as the independent ‘Alder Valley Travel’ just under 10 years after Stagecoach South acquired the last chunk of that operation in the same area?

There was also the Crosville name resurrected in private hands, although in that instance I think I may have once read that the rights to the name gad been acquired. I’m almost certain that wasn’t the case with Alder Valley Travel though, and unlike Southdown / South Downs, ‘Alder Valley’ was a contrived name specifically for the original bus operation rather than referring to a real location.

 

[Snow1964]

I am certainly surprised that Go Ahead are interested in purchasing a very small independent. But i suppose the routes fit in well with the Metrobus operations and are in the same area. I doubt the Southdown brand will be kept for long. I reckon that within a few months or a year at the most Go Ahead will scrap the Southdown brand and close down Copthorne depot and move all of the routes and vehicles to their nearby main Crawley depot as ordinary Metrobus routes.

I am surprised that it didn't raise an eyebrow with competition authorities as it almost gives Go Ahead a monopoly in the area.
Already lost Buses etc, Arriva and few others in that area of north Sussex and South Surrey. There is only Compass bus left (if it is still going as its website is offline)

 

[Surreyman]

I am certainly surprised that Go Ahead are interested in purchasing a very small independent. But i suppose the routes fit in well with the Metrobus operations and are in the same area. I doubt the Southdown brand will be kept for long. I reckon that within a few months or a year at the most Go Ahead will scrap the Southdown brand and close down Copthorne depot and move all of the routes and vehicles to their nearby main Crawley depot as ordinary Metrobus routes.

I am inclined to agree but may be easier said than done, Metrobus have space issues at their Crawley depot, mostly due to the installation of Zero Emission bus infrastructure in the form of Hydrogen refuelling facilities.
Copthorne is very close to Crawley and could continue as an outstation.
Southdown/Metrobus won't be immune from the current Staff shortages affecting the bus industry.
Still an outside chance that the CMA might get involved and put a 'temporary freeze' on the takeover.

I am surprised that it didn't raise an eyebrow with competition authorities as it almost gives Go Ahead a monopoly in the area.
Already lost Buses etc, Arriva and few others in that area of north Sussex and South Surrey. There is only Compass bus left (if it is still going as its website is offline)

I was on a Compass bus yesterday, so still going!

 

[ajs]

And to add to the confusion, in September 2022, the directors of Seven Sisters Bus & Coach Company (operators of Eastbourne siteseeing buses) registered a new company called Southdown Motor Services Limited.

Eastbourne Sightseeing Service to run open top buses in Southdown livery?

 

[Titfield]

I am not sure how much value there is in old brand bus company names particularly given that the consumer / passenger rarely has a choice of bus companies to choose from when they wish to make a specific journey.

 

[duncombec]

I am certainly surprised that Go Ahead are interested in purchasing a very small independent. But i suppose the routes fit in well with the Metrobus operations and are in the same area. I doubt the Southdown brand will be kept for long. I reckon that within a few months or a year at the most Go Ahead will scrap the Southdown brand and close down Copthorne depot and move all of the routes and vehicles to their nearby main Crawley depot as ordinary Metrobus routes.

Allowing for subsequent changes and introductions, almost all of the routes Southdown operate have been run by Metrobus before in one shape or form - 236, 409, 410, 411, 594/595 and various school routes have all been in the Metrobus stable at one time or another. The 485 hasn't (and I think that has driver swap benefits?), and the 422/424 are new routes. So I'm not surprised by the fact they are selling, than who they are selling to.

Go-Ahead like local brand names, and as far as I understand Southdown PSV has a good name in the area, so why change it? As @Surreyman has said, there will soon be space issues at Crawley, and vehicles could easily be cycled between the two. Various Metrobus services already pass through Copthorne.

I am surprised that it didn't raise an eyebrow with competition authorities as it almost gives Go Ahead a monopoly in the area.
Already lost Buses etc, Arriva and few others in that area of north Sussex and South Surrey. There is only Compass bus left (if it is still going as its website is offline)

The Compass website was down earlier this morning, but seems back now. Presumably just maintenance.

I think there has been a monopoly in the area for a while. There seem to be specific corridors of "competition", mostly at the northern end (e.g. 400/409, 400/410, Lingfield - East Grinstead via two different routes), and in any case, when was the last time the competition authorities got involved with the sale of a relatively small independent? (The Stagecoach/Citylink/Comfort DelGro/NatEx situation is the last time I can remember at all, and that's because they are huge).

 

[MotCO]

I think there has been a monopoly in the area for a while. There seem to be specific corridors of "competition", mostly at the northern end (e.g. 400/409, 400/410, Lingfield - East Grinstead via two different routes), and in any case, when was the last time the competition authorities got involved with the sale of a relatively small independent? (The Stagecoach/Citylink/Comfort DelGro/NatEx situation is the last time I can remember at all, and that's because they are huge).

Is there a difference since there are no other competitors in the area? Cruisers run one route, but I can't think of anyone else. When the tenders come up for renewal, there may be only one bidder, so where's the competitive element?

 

[ctrh136]

Is there a difference since there are no other competitors in the area? Cruisers run one route, but I can't think of anyone else. When the tenders come up for renewal, there may be only one bidder, so where's the competitive element?

Arriva and then Metrobus had a complete monopoly more or less during the 1990s and early 2000s - it was only in 2006 when Southdown PSV won some tenders that there was real competition. Though the corridors won't be looked at as they accept each others' return tickets I believe (most of Southdown's operations are Surrey CC contracts).

 

[duncombec]

Is there a difference since there are no other competitors in the area? Cruisers run one route, but I can't think of anyone else. When the tenders come up for renewal, there may be only one bidder, so where's the competitive element?

[...](most of Southdown's operations are Surrey CC contracts).

I didn't think of that, I have to admit, but this seems to have come up before with no issue. I can only find two lists of tender results, dating from 2015 and 2018, on the Surrey website, but there was only one bid for the 420/460/480 (from Metrobus, by default) in 2018, for example, and only three for what is now the 422/424 (Metrobus, Southdown... Compass? - although interestingly with more than £115,000 difference in tender price) in the document here:

https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/179051/CHANGES-TO-BUS-SERVICE-CONTRACTS-April-SEPT-2018.pdf

(Table in a PDF, quote not possible. The relevant lines are at the bottom of page 2 and top of page 3).

Unfortunately, I haven't found anything else for the Southdown network - others with access to more tendering sites may be able to find more.

 

[Murray J]

Almost all of the routes Southdown operate have been run by Metrobus before in one shape or form - 236, 409, 410, 411, 594/595 and various school routes have all been in the Metrobus stable at one time or another. The 485 hasn't (and I think that has driver swap benefits?), and the 422/424 are new routes.

The 485 only covers dead runs between the depot and East Grinstead, there used to be other dead run services too (486 and I believe a 487?) but all the dead runs they used to cover for routes like the 410 are now part of the route itself, the 410 for example has 6 dead run services that start/end at the depot every day, 3 AM and 3 PM.

 

[MotCO]

No obvious 'We're part of Go-Ahead' stickers on the outside of buses yet!

 

[Hophead]

No obvious 'We're part of Go-Ahead' stickers on the outside of buses yet!

I've yet to find any "official" confirmation of the change anywhere online. I presume that the legal owner has been updated on the buses themselves though.

 

[Murray J]

I've yet to find any "official" confirmation of the change anywhere online. I presume that the legal owner has been updated on the buses themselves though.

Coach & Bus Week put out a tweet about 3 hours ago but no other confirmation online, even on Southdown's social media which are still all quiet.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Is there a difference since there are no other competitors in the area? Cruisers run one route, but I can't think of anyone else. When the tenders come up for renewal, there may be only one bidder, so where's the competitive element?

I didn't think of that, I have to admit, but this seems to have come up before with no issue. I can only find two lists of tender results, dating from 2015 and 2018, on the Surrey website, but there was only one bid for the 420/460/480 (from Metrobus, by default) in 2018, for example, and only three for what is now the 422/424 (Metrobus, Southdown... Compass? - although interestingly with more than £115,000 difference in tender price) in the document here:

https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/179051/CHANGES-TO-BUS-SERVICE-CONTRACTS-April-SEPT-2018.pdf

(Table in a PDF, quote not possible. The relevant lines are at the bottom of page 2 and top of page 3).

Unfortunately, I haven't found anything else for the Southdown network - others with access to more tendering sites may be able to find more.

Southdown featured heavily in the 2016 tendering round, with their wins and retentions all effective 03/09/2016 to 02/09/2021 but most likely now running on extensions. The routes affected were as follows and all contracts had three bidders (except the 410 with two). Although it doesn't say who they were, I wouldn't be surprised if those with three bidders were indeed Southdown themselves and Metrobus as suggested by @duncombec . The third could well have been Compass, but I wouldn't also rule out the possibility of Buses Excetera who were operating out of the former London & Country yard at Merstham at the time and quite happy running Surrey County Council contracts in areas much further away from there such as Cranleigh, Guildford and Woking so these would have been nice and "local".

Route numbers in those contracts were (with today's destinations - I believe there has been some fiddling since?):

• 236 (Oxted to East Grinstead)
• 409 (East Grinstead to Selsdon)
• 410 (Hurst Green to Redhill)
• 509 (East Grinstead to Catersham, combined with 409)
• 594/595 (Oxted to Westerham)
• 694 (Oxted School to Lingfield)

The following routes were previously part of other contracts, but from this time were split from those and listed as being taken on commercially by Southdown:

• 610 (Oxted School to Smallfield)

The 603 (Oxted School to Redhill) was won from Metrobus and from this time packaged in with the 594/595 contract.

I've attached a copy of the document to this post.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Now this is even more of a reason why the company name for the whole group needs to be renamed into Go South East! With Brighton & Hove, Metrobus and Southdown PSV being local brands.

I wonder what will happen to the fleet numbers of Southdown's current buses. Will they now be renumbered into a 4 digit numbering scheme, maybe 5xxx or 7xxx? (Metrobus already use 6xxx)

I also wonder if Metrobus' metrovoyager will now also be valid on Southdown as a result (it is already valid on Brighton & Hove). Imo I wouldn't find it necessary as we in the South East are lucky enough to have the £9 Discovery, which allows travel on any bus in Sussex, Surrey, Kent and most of Hampshire

 

[Goldfish62]

I was on a Compass bus yesterday, so still going!

We'd certainly have known about it by now had they ceased trading given the extent of their operations!

 

[Flange Squeal]

And to add to the confusion, in September 2022, the directors of Seven Sisters Bus & Coach Company (operators of Eastbourne siteseeing buses) registered a new company called Southdown Motor Services Limited.

Eastbourne Sightseeing Service to run open top buses in Southdown livery?

For fear of going off topic, this last point isn't that wild - Seven Sisters Bus & Coach have announced that this year will see a new summer service operated by their heritage vehicles between Eastbourne and Pevensey Castle, with the heritage fleet including at least one Southdown-liveried Queen Mary!

New 'heritage' bus route to run for fascinating trips past East Sussex landmarks
The new bus route will be popular with many

A new bus route for East Sussex was announced at the weekend (January 21) which plans to run throughout the summer months. The route, which will be run by the Seven Sisters Bus and Coach company, will be a "heritage bus route" aimed at taking passengers to key heritage sights along the East Sussex coast.

As well as the new route giving passengers an opportunity to visit hertage sights this summer, the route will also be completed using the company's "heritage vehicles", including open top buses. The route is currently mapped out to run during the months of June, July and August.

The route, numbered 197, will run on an hourly basis daily throughout daytime hours. Among the stops are Eastbourne Pier and Pevensey Castle, two popular sights among locals and Sussex tourists.

Announcing the news, the company wrote: "A bit of news to look forward too later in the year. During June/July and August we will be running a new Heritage Bus route using some of our Heritage vehicles including open top ones.

"The Route (197) will run from Eastbourne Pier , Sovereign Centre , Stone Cross , Pevensey Castle , Pevensey Bay , Sovereign Centre and Eastbourne Pier on an hourly basis daily. Further developments will also be posted in the next week or so ."

Best known for running the Eastbourne sightseeing buses, the company - whose aim is to allow people easy access to the Sussex heritage sights - also prides itself on specialising in vintage and open top bus hires for weddings and special occasions across Sussex. Exact details of this new route, including pricing, has not yet been mapped out but Seven Sisters Bus and Coach company said that more information would be released in due course.

Source: https://www.sussexlive.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/new-heritage-bus-route-run-8067004

 

[Man of Kent]

I've yet to find any "official" confirmation of the change anywhere online. I presume that the legal owner has been updated on the buses themselves though.

Why? The legal owner remains Southdown PSV Ltd. The change is in the ownership of the shares. Previously owned by three directors, they are probably now in the ownership of Go-Ahead Holdings Ltd.