SouthEastern fleet replacement updates

[AlexNL]

With the exception of Alstom (offering a 701-type Aventra, possibly a 702...), is there any manufacturer who can produce enough of an "existing design" to provide for the contract?

Stadler, with trains based on the 777s currently on delivery to Merseyrail?

 

[jackot]

With the exception of Alstom (offering a 701-type Aventra, possibly a 702...), is there any manufacturer who can produce enough of an "existing design" to provide for the contract?

The Desiro City platform is certainly an existing design and one that could easily be adapted to meet SE's needs, but since production has been shut down they obviously don't have the capabilities to start building them tomorrow. However, with enough notice and a large enough order (both of which should be the case here), I have minimal doubt that Siemens would be willing to restart production and offer the platform. IIRC, they did a similar thing with the 350/3s and /4s for LM and TPE after a large pause of orders.

 

[Trainbike46]

Stadler, with trains based on the 777s currently on delivery to Merseyrail?

A FLIRT based design would be more likely

 

[Roast Veg]

The Desiro City platform is certainly an existing design and one that could easily be adapted to meet SE's needs, but since production has been shut down they obviously don't have the capabilities to start building them tomorrow. However, with enough notice and a large enough order (both of which should be the case here), I have minimal doubt that Siemens would be willing to restart production and offer the platform. IIRC, they did a similar thing with the 350/3s and /4s for LM and TPE after a large pause of orders.

My understanding is that the Desiro City product is no longer for sale, likely because a new product is being offered. The Desiro family appears to still be extant, so I imagine any new design would be a branch of the continental designs, rather than a 707 derivation. There will be a product available, Siemens would jump at the chance to utilise Google to assemble it.

 

[Wolfie]

My understanding is that the Desiro City product is no longer for sale, likely because a new product is being offered. The Desiro family appears to still be extant, so I imagine any new design would be a branch of the continental designs, rather than a 707 derivation. There will be a product available, Siemens would jump at the chance to utilise Google to assemble it.

Google? Lol.... A wonderful predictive text l assume!

 

[AlexNL]

I'm not sure whether the Desiro City is actually discontinued. It's still shown prominently on Siemens' website, unlike previous iterations of the Desiro offering for the UK. That leads me to believe that Siemens may still be willing to sell this product (although lead times will be longer due to having to restart an assembly line).

 

[Energy]

My understanding is that the Desiro City product is no longer for sale, likely because a new product is being offered. The Desiro family appears to still be extant, so I imagine any new design would be a branch of the continental designs, rather than a 707 derivation. There will be a product available, Siemens would jump at the chance to utilise Google to assemble it.

Why would the Desiro City be no longer for sale? Its on their website.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

. I have just seen this updated version on Southeastern Trains' rolling stock, in this video it tells of the present and future rolling stock on Southeastern Trains which is said that the 377s are leaving Southeastern Railways in 2023 or 2024. I do not own the rights to this video.

It is for information purposes only.

 

[JonathanH]

I have just seen this updated version on Southeastern trains rolling stock.

I don't think it tells us anything new though.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

I don't think it tells us anything new though.

But, in the past, there were rumours saying that Southeastern was going to be losing 12 377/5's but what I saw in the updated version is that Southeastern Railways are going to lose all the 377s if it is true.

 

[JonathanH]

But, in the past, there were rumours saying that Southeastern was going to be losing 12 377/5's but what I saw in the updated version is that Southeastern Railways are going to lose all the 377s if it is true.

No announcement has been made. The video just looks like something a YouTuber has put together based on their speculation.

It isn't clear that Southern are getting any extra stock (eg any 377/5s) as they are proposing cuts to the Redhill to Tonbridge line (from 3 units to 2 units) from December. They might not be doing that if more stock was incoming.

 

[PGAT]

It isn't clear that Southern are getting any extra stock (eg any 377/5s) as they are proposing cuts to the Redhill to Tonbridge line (from 3 units to 2 units) from December. They might not be doing that if more stock was incoming.

With 1tph shuttling there and back doesn't it only require 2 units anyway?

 

[JonathanH]

With 1tph shuttling there and back doesn't it only require 2 units anyway?

Three units at peak time allows a 2tph service. The proposal made to the relevant rail users groups is for there to be a reduction from 3 to 2 units in the peak, with a consequent reduction in peak frequency.

Technically off topic for this thread, but mentioned to indicate that there aren't indications that a reduction in the Southeastern 377 fleet is necessarily agreed.

 

[Minstral25]

With 1tph shuttling there and back doesn't it only require 2 units anyway?

Requires 3 at Peak with half hourly service

 

[87015]

But, in the past, there were rumours saying that Southeastern was going to be losing 12 377/5's but what I saw in the updated version is that Southeastern Railways are going to lose all the 377s if it is true.

Thats all cancelled, GTR have said they dont want/need extra units and SE will not lose 377/5s as a result. The only current cascade in the sector is 707s to SE, but that has no timeline until 701s start/dont start.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Thats all cancelled, GTR have said they dont want/need extra units and SE will not lose 377/5s as a result. The only current cascade in the sector is 707s to SE, but that has no timeline until 701s start/dont start.

That is probably the reason why southern railway has reduced and cut services and also, reduced the formations of coaches which I think is awful. I wonder if this is Southern's doing or the DFT doing but this is bad.

 

[PGAT]

That is probably the reason why southern railway has reduced and cut services and also, reduced the formations of coaches which I think is awful. I wonder if this is Southern's doing or the DFT doing but this is bad.

Considering that the cascade would be really easy and cost virtually nothing it’s probably GTR’s doing

 

[JonathanH]

That is probably the reason why southern railway has reduced and cut services and also, reduced the formations of coaches which I think is awful. I wonder if this is Southern's doing or the DFT doing but this is bad.

On the plus side, and pertinent to Southeastern, it may mean that Southeastern don't need to replace as many units.

 

[PGAT]

The 377/5s were Southern’s last opportunity to add to its fleet. Considering the fleet is already really stretched, the decision to decline extra stock is just a bad idea.

 

[Mikey C]

On the plus side, and pertinent to Southeastern, it may mean that Southeastern don't need to replace as many units.

And it means Southeastern keep the 377s to use on mid distance routes, rather than sending 465/9s out to Ashford which is definitely a plus for those passengers.

 

[Doomotron]

The 377/5s were Southern’s last opportunity to add to its fleet. Considering the fleet is already really stretched, the decision to decline extra stock is just a bad idea.

But a blessing for Southeastern. Both TOCs are suffering from stock shortages.

 

[physics34]

But, in the past, there were rumours saying that Southeastern was going to be losing 12 377/5's but what I saw in the updated version is that Southeastern Railways are going to lose all the 377s if it is true.

There was definate sighting of internal document that stated 12x 377/5 were coming back to Southern from SE in August 2022. That was delayed because of the class 701 debacle on SWR. I have not seen or heard anything official since, whether it will or wont still happen. The only slight news that might be relevant is that Southern expect to increase some services in Dec. This would need more units.

 

[PGAT]

But a blessing for Southeastern. Both TOCs are suffering from stock shortages.

But SouthEastern still has networkers in storage that could be brought back. Southern has absolutely nothing

 

[JonathanH]

The only slight news that might be relevant is that Southern expect to increase some services in Dec. This would need more units.

They might well increase some services at the expense of others - eg a shuffle of the units between services with less custom and those with more, therefore not needing extra units.

But SouthEastern still has networkers in storage that could be brought back. Southern has absolutely nothing

I think the idea that the 465/2s could come back has been dismissed.

 

[physics34]

They might well increase some services at the expense of others - eg a shuffle of the units between services with less custom and those with more, therefore not needing extra units.


I think the idea that the 465/2s could come back has been dismissed.

Id disband the gat ex, but thats a different thread lol

 

[ScotGG]

Still reckon govt will insist the Networkers carry on and they'll get to 40 years in service before replacement.

Wouldn't be surprised if they don't see any refurb either.

Surely it's cheaper to lease 30 year old stock for another 5-10 years than new given the era of cheap finance is over even accounting for reliability?

 

[CFRAIL]

There was definate sighting of internal document that stated 12x 377/5 were coming back to Southern from SE in August 2022. That was delayed because of the class 701 debacle on SWR. I have not seen or heard anything official since, whether it will or wont still happen. The only slight news that might be relevant is that Southern expect to increase some services in Dec. This would need more units.

And SE have stated all 707's will be in service by end of 2023 so that may explain it.

 

[Mikey C]

Still reckon govt will insist the Networkers carry on and they'll get to 40 years in service before replacement.

Wouldn't be surprised if they don't see any refurb either.

Surely it's cheaper to lease 30 year old stock for another 5-10 years than new given the era of cheap finance is over even accounting for reliability?

Personally I don't think the Networkers need replacement, they just need the sort of major refurb the 455s got.

The 707s will allow the worst ones to be scrapped and provide a buffer to allow units to be taken out of service and refurbed.

Of course, the need to keep factories open might tip the balance towards replacement.

 

[brad465]

But SouthEastern still has networkers in storage that could be brought back. Southern has absolutely nothing

Southeastern can't expand its fleet without more stabling being built/opened, this, along with covid suppressing demand, is why 465/2s went off to storage when the first 707s arrived, rather than them being an addition.

 

[Minstral25]

There was definate sighting of internal document that stated 12x 377/5 were coming back to Southern from SE in August 2022. That was delayed because of the class 701 debacle on SWR. I have not seen or heard anything official since, whether it will or wont still happen. The only slight news that might be relevant is that Southern expect to increase some services in Dec. This would need more units.

Interesting that Southern are increasing some services as they are planning cuts to Tonbridge services to save a unit. Not for this thread though.