Southeastern Maidstone - Blackfriars 2022.

[SE%Traveller]

GTRs timetable hasn’t been uploaded yet, this time next week that should look more populated.

good to know, thanks!

 

[4BEP]

Pretty much all of the Blackfriars services for May 22 have gone, with that 'express' (1A83 I think it was) service from Ashford diverted back into Victoria as per the current timetable as 2A22.

1A90 always was a Victoria service, the now disappeared BFR services from 22 May did include several 1A** via Herne Hill though.

Pretty much all of the Blackfriars services for May 22 have gone, with that 'express' (1A83 I think it was) service from Ashford diverted back into Victoria as per the current

Pretty much all of the Blackfriars services for May 22 have gone, with that 'express' (1A83 I think it was) service from Ashford diverted back into Victoria as per the current timetable as 2A22.

Also just noticed tha with the exception of the previously existing BFR service all of the BFR services are cancelled today. I know this could he weather related but the VIC services are all running.

 

[James H]

The trains did run today

Realtime Trains - Departures from London Blackfriars

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Pictured at Elephant & Castle at lunchtime

 

[CFRAIL]

Saw this yesterday;

 

[cle]

Are these 6 more, or just those 3 return trips (excluding the Ashford) ?

 

[Class 466]

Are these 6 more, or just those 3 return trips (excluding the Ashford) ?

Those 3 return trips are the 6 additional services

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Those 3 return trips are the 6 additional services

Which is one set going backwards and forwards on a 3hr cycle so not much use. They should at least promote the opportunity to connect into TL services at Blackfriars if they really want to make this a success but i suspect they don't.

Travelled daily from M.East to London for 20 years and it was an operational inconvenience then and remains so now despite the main traffic flows to Medway Towns having shifted to HS1 so no excuse on capacity into London now. They should get Hitachi to knock out a few more 395's so M.West can have an hourly HS1 service all day.

 

[4BEP]

Which is one set going backwards and forwards on a 3hr cycle so not much use. They should at least promote the opportunity to connect into TL services at Blackfriars if they really want to make this a success but i suspect they don't.

Travelled daily from M.East to London for 20 years and it was an operational inconvenience then and remains so now despite the main traffic flows to Medway Towns having shifted to HS1 so no excuse on capacity into London now. They should get Hitachi to knock out a few more 395's so M.West can have an hourly HS1 service all day.

I noticed 1A93 madeca sub 60 minute journey between MDE and BFR today, albeit after a delayed start.

 

[SE%Traveller]

I notice that the Gillingham Service is still there in May. I don't know why they don't just run this as a stopping service via Catford, as is it is it takes 20 minutes to Denmark Hill competed to the 24 taken by the stopping Sevenoaks Service so a time cost of 4 minutes. Anyone using that service who wanted to get to Victoria quickly would change at Bromley South same platform for the Ramsaa same and get there 9 minutes earlier

 

[brad465]

I notice that the Gillingham Service is still there in May. I don't know why they don't just run this as a stopping service via Catford, as is it is it takes 20 minutes to Denmark Hill competed to the 24 taken by the stopping Sevenoaks Service so a time cost of 4 minutes. Anyone using that service who wanted to get to Victoria quickly would change at Bromley South same platform for the Ramsaa same and get there 9 minutes earlier

On current timetabling the Victoria-bound journey quickly gets stuck behind a Thameslink before Denmark Hill, but in the other direction is better pathed so is markedly faster. It takes around 30 minutes from BMS-VIC, but 23 mins from VIC-BMS on that service. There maybe some logistical and/or franchise station management reasons why that service doesn't call at more stops via Catford, although in the morning peak some Gillingham-VIC services do add Bellingham and Crofton Park to their calling patterns anyway.

 

[SE%Traveller]

On current timetabling the Victoria-bound journey quickly gets stuck behind a Thameslink before Denmark Hill, but in the other direction is better pathed so is markedly faster. It takes around 30 minutes from BMS-VIC, but 23 mins from VIC-BMS on that service. There maybe some logistical and/or franchise station management reasons why that service doesn't call at more stops via Catford, although in the morning peak some Gillingham-VIC services do add Bellingham and Crofton Park to their calling patterns anyway.

I have to admit the thought occurred as i posted that i hadn't checked the return. On the Down the Ramsgate Service leaves Victoria at XX40 and the Gillingham XX42 with a 9 minute wait at BMS so taking the Gillingham direct would seem preferable. Still think it should be one thing or the other, either run it faster on the UP or run it stopping both ways...

 

[traingeek97]

Am I right in thinking the service being introduced has reduced significantly compared with what Southeastern initially promised/announced? I seem to remember reading that it would be 2tph throughout the day (which did seem slightly excessive). West Malling and Maidstone would benefit more from fast services to/from London Blackfriars in the peak (similar to the services that run fast between London Bridge and Rochester and then to the Kent coast).

 

[James H]

Can anyone explain this text on the Thameslink website about Sutton service reductions from 28 February "to support the introduction of additional Southeastern services at London Blackfriars"?

Does this refer to the Maidstone trains or something else?

London Blackfriars / Luton to Sutton / Wimbledon​

Four trains per hour will continue to run between Sutton and London Blackfriars via Tulse Hill. Two trains per hour will continue to Luton via St Pancras International. However, the following trains will not run from 28 February 2022:

• 11:34 Luton to Sutton
• 13:19 Sutton to Blackfriars
• 13:51 Blackfriars to Sutton
• 14:46 Sutton to Luton

This change is to support the introduction of additional Southeastern services at London Blackfriars.

Train Timetables | Train Times & Timetables | Thameslink

Find train times for your route and download timetables and maps for all Thameslink services.

www.thameslinkrailway.com

 

[SE%Traveller]

Yes I think it's because Suttons are temporarily using the bays at the moment but at the time in question both are needed by other Serivces, namely the Maidstone and the Sevenoaks?

 

[James H]

But the 13:19 from Sutton is currently a through service to St Albans - why would it need to be axed to make way for the Southeasterns?

Any why from next week when the SE service began this week?

 

[Timmyd]

But the 13:19 from Sutton is currently a through service to St Albans - why would it need to be axed to make way for the Southeasterns?

Any why from next week when the SE service began this week?

There is some very confusing stuff on the Thameslink website at the moment - this week's timetable shows half the trains using the bays at Blackfriars when fact all are running through to St Albans. The bays have been empty whenever I've passed through this week. So agree that there seems no reason for these services to be cancelled to make room for SouthEasterns and it would be a very retrograde step to introduce these random hour long gaps on the loop

 

[SE%Traveller]

But the 13:19 from Sutton is currently a through service to St Albans - why would it need to be axed to make way for the Southeasterns?

Any why from next week when the SE service began this week?

For the second issue they are running the regular Sutton St Albans Service so not using the bays, Next week they go back to Running Luton to Sutton Via Mitcham Then Sutton To Blackfriars via Wimbledon

Its very confusing but I think all the cancelled trains are the regular pathings to St Albans. Their replacements to Blackfriars have just been removed from the WTT. If you look at 1hour earlier both the cancelled St Albans train and the replacement Blackfriars train are there.

Seems a bit extreme to just remove the 4 workings when you could either terminate it or more likely the Sevenoaks at Platform 2. I know it's not ideal but 1 off peak train is manageable and the Sevenoaks services do do it on occasion and then reverse at the Smithfield sidings. They have a 20 minute lay over at Blackfriars normally.

sutton to blackfriars

 

[ert47]

There is some very confusing stuff on the Thameslink website at the moment - this week's timetable shows half the trains using the bays at Blackfriars when fact all are running through to St Albans. The bays have been empty whenever I've passed through this week. So agree that there seems no reason for these services to be cancelled to make room for SouthEasterns and it would be a very retrograde step to introduce these random hour long gaps on the loop

Can anyone explain this text on the Thameslink website about Sutton service reductions from 28 February "to support the introduction of additional Southeastern services at London Blackfriars"?

Does this refer to the Maidstone trains or something else?

Train Timetables | Train Times & Timetables | Thameslink

Find train times for your route and download timetables and maps for all Thameslink services.

www.thameslinkrailway.com

1) This week the timetable is modified due to the Brighton mainline block, the Sutton terminators in the bay go back to the temp timetable from around the beginning of Jan

2) The trains listed are all one circuit - they form the next train listed. Hazard a guess, one of the SE services take up a pathway between Blackfriars and Cambria Junction (just north of Loughborough Jn Station) that the cancelled Thameslink occupied.

For the second issue they are running the regular Sutton St Albans Service so not using the bays, Next week they go back to Running Luton to Sutton Via Mitcham Then Sutton To Blackfriars via Wimbledon

Its very confusing but I think all the cancelled trains are the regular pathings to St Albans. Their replacements to Blackfriars have just been removed from the WTT. If you look at 1hour earlier both the cancelled St Albans train and the replacement Blackfriars train are there.

Seems a bit extreme to just remove the 4 workings when you could either terminate it or more likely the Sevenoaks at Platform 2. I know it's not ideal but 1 off peak train is manageable and the Sevenoaks services do do it on occasion and then reverse at the Smithfield sidings. They have a 20 minute lay over at Blackfriars normally.

sutton to blackfriars

There isn’t enough time to terminate and empty out the Sevenoaks service on platform 2 as the arrival times are close to the Luton service from Rainham which is followed 3 mins after by a Peterborough service. It will cause too much of a knock on to other services.

 

[SE%Traveller]

1) This week the timetable is modified due to the Brighton mainline block, the Sutton terminators in the bay go back to the temp timetable from around the beginning of Jan

2) The trains listed are all one circuit - they form the next train listed. Hazard a guess, one of the SE services take up a pathway between Blackfriars and Cambria Junction (just north of Loughborough Jn Station) that the cancelled Thameslink occupied.


There isn’t enough time to terminate and empty out the Sevenoaks service on platform 2 as the arrival times are close to the Luton service from Rainham which is followed 3 mins after by a Peterborough service. It will cause too much of a knock on to other services.

Well they have 5 mins to do it as per the timetable and in practice it's nearer 7 as the Sevenoaks service comes in at xx:27 (only needing 3 of the 5 minutes allowed from Elephant) with the Rainham getting there at xx34.

it's not ideal but 1 train off peak shoudn't cause an issue, the passangers on that service are expecting to get off it so they don't hang about, i've not observed it being an issue when they've had to detrain in platform 2 in the past....

 

[OFFDN]

When you terminate in plat 2 then where are you going to go from there…?

 

[SE%Traveller]

When you terminate in plat 2 then where are you going to go from there…?

They'll run it to the Smithfields sidings, reverse it and then run it back to Platform 1 for the return working to Sevenoaks

 

[Peregrine 4903]

They'll run it to the Smithfields sidings, reverse it and then run it back to Platform 1 for the return working to Sevenoaks

They defintely won't do that.

 

[adrock1976]

They'll run it to the Smithfields sidings, reverse it and then run it back to Platform 1 for the return work

They defintely won't do that.

Would it be feasible (based on the new timetable) to send the train to Kentish Town?

The Sevenoaks via Swanley and Catford Loop were extended to Kentish Town from Blackfriars when the station was being rebuilt.

 

[OFFDN]

They'll run it to the Smithfields sidings, reverse it and then run it back to Platform 1 for the return working to Sevenoaks

You could put the train into smith field but you would never get it out. To come out you have to run bang line through City TL, no way youre ever doing that during the day, there would be no gaps. Even if there were it would be a massive performance risk. It looks like the return circuit to Sutton has been removed due to South Eastern being in platform 4 from half 1 to half 2.

I reckon running to Kentish Town would make you ‘step back’ the stock and introduce an extra unit into the mix, so not feasible.

 

[James H]

Is this gap in the Sutton service likely to persist till the May timetable change? Or...?

 

[Gerard92]

You could put the train into smith field but you would never get it out. To come out you have to run bang line through City TL, no way youre ever doing that during the day, there would be no gaps. Even if there were it would be a massive performance risk. It looks like the return circuit to Sutton has been removed due to South Eastern being in platform 4 from half 1 to half 2.

I reckon running to Kentish Town would make you ‘step back’ the stock and introduce an extra unit into the mix, so not feasible.

Another option could be to spin the 9Y at Elephant & Castle platform 2 but would depend if there was a driver change at Blackfriars but this is only usually undertaken if the up service is running late or bay platforms are blocked and is same driver in & out

 

[AlbertBeale]

Another option could be to spin the 9Y at Elephant & Castle platform 2 but would depend if there was a driver change at Blackfriars but this is only usually undertaken if the up service is running late or bay platforms are blocked and is same driver in & out

Skipping one of the Sutton loop services means an hour's gap (given it's only 2ph each way). Not so bad on the Mitcham side of the loop, with Victoria trains up and down there as well, but on the Wimbledon side of the loop, that makes for a real problem. People who use the loop services from time to time tend to know what times past the hour they run from their station (they have to with only 2ph), and no doubt go to the station at the relevant time past the hour whenever they need to travel - but at certain times of day they'll find their expected train simply isn't there. Pretty bad for an infrequent - but otherwise regular - London suburban service which locals might rely on.

 

[SE%Traveller]

You could put the train into smith field but you would never get it out. To come out you have to run bang line through City TL, no way youre ever doing that during the day, there would be no gaps. Even if there were it would be a massive performance risk. It looks like the return circuit to Sutton has been removed due to South Eastern being in platform 4 from half 1 to half 2.

I reckon running to Kentish Town would make you ‘step back’ the stock and introduce an extra unit into the mix, so not feasible.

In the regular timentable the Sevenoaks Serives is pathed north anyway for when it is a Welwyn peak and again on it's return.As already discussed pn these forums those paths are are still in the timetable.

They defintely won't do that.

I have to admit i'm making an assumption on turring around at Smithfield. It's base on observed facts that the train detrained at platform 2, and that Unit was observed in the Smithfields sidings as i went past on the next northbound. i don't know for fact that it did the return working after that (but that it did run from platform 1), hence i thought it ws a reasonable assumption. Others would involves extra Units i'd have thought which given this is done usually as the bays are blocked R

It's the least worse option to do this i think. SE trains are no longer clearned and Sutton passangers are expecting to stay on. Biggest issue on the sevenoks services is stopping people boarding.

also bear in mind that there's about 10 tph though the core just now, not 22!

 

[Timmyd]

Does anyone know why TL and Southern are going back to a temporary timetable on Sutton, Beckenham etc next week? Can't be Covid absences surely? As a daily commuter on the line the through trains were rammed before the full service was resumed last week and there is no customer info the that effect at the stations

 

[whoosh]

Does anyone know why TL and Southern are going back to a temporary timetable on Sutton, Beckenham etc next week? Can't be Covid absences surely? As a daily commuter on the line the through trains were rammed before the full service was resumed last week and there is no customer info the that effect at the stations

The train planning work on this week for the major block at Three Bridges was done ages ago and based on the December 2021 timetable.
A modified timetable (COVID) has been running but it was too late to do any train planning work to alter the work already done for this week to the modified timetable and then modify the modified timetable to reflect the major engineering works, so this week ran as the original timetable, but altered for the works.

Hope that was clear, lol!!

Next week goes back to the modified timetable (COVID reductions).