Southeastern Maidstone - Blackfriars 2022.

[30907]

id hope it goes via bromley south and the mid kent line. will give bromley commuters a much simpler journey to theatreland without needing the tube

It won't, because it's aimed at Maidstone not the Mid Kent, but if you don't like Bromley North then changing Catford/Catford Br isn't difficult.

 

[Chiltern006]

oh seems i’ve caused a bit of confusion haha, what i meant is that it runs fast from bromley south to london bridge via the beckenham spur and mid kent line. yeah i suppose your right about bromley north and catford

 

[4-SUB 4732]

back to the routing the Cannon St service had 30 years ago then. needs to be half hourly really to be of use for onward Tlk connections.

Up until around 2009, I recall, when a (usually) 4 car 465/9 left Cannon Street from 0914-1614, followed by the peak gap, and then a 1914. All went to Ashford.

 

[Class 466]

oh seems i’ve caused a bit of confusion haha, what i meant is that it runs fast from bromley south to london bridge via the beckenham spur and mid kent line. yeah i suppose your right about bromley north and catford

There really isn’t the capacity for a fast train along the Hayes line without it having a terrible path. Also the crossing moves at Beckenham Junction/New Beckenham are just asking for trouble as soon as there’s the tiniest delay somewhere.

 

[bramling]

back to the routing the Cannon St service had 30 years ago then. needs to be half hourly really to be of use for onward Tlk connections.

I remember there was an hourly service in the 90s from Charing Cross which went fast from London Bridge to Maidstone East, then Bearsted, Ashford, Canterbury West and all stations to Margate. Was one of the first services worked by 365s too. Wasn’t particularly well used in those days, especially off-peak. A West Malling call was added subsequently. It changed to Cannon Street at around the time the 365s were concentrated on the Faversham route.

 

[cle]

So would this new Charing Cross/Cannon St train be in place of the sporadic TL, or as well as? And also the 2tph Victoria-Maidstone-Ashford?

Does Maidstone still have St Pancras services? Or are those shacks ones still happening, which were planned for via Dartford (to serve Abbey Wood) ?

 

[dodecahedron67]

So would this new Charing Cross/Cannon St train be in place of the sporadic TL, or as well as? And also the 2tph Victoria-Maidstone-Ashford?

Does Maidstone still have St Pancras services? Or are those shacks ones still happening, which were planned for via Dartford (to serve Abbey Wood) ?

As far as I understand the "sporadic" TL (planned Maidstone E - Cambs via London Bridge) is dead and buried in all but a public announcement

2tph Vic - Maidstone - Ashford (probably 1tph extension along Canterbury W line) + 1tph Maidstone E - Charing X (replacement for TL) is what I believe is happening

Maidstone West still retains its peak St Pancras HS1 services as far as I know

 

[Class 466]

One other thing that I believe is going ahead from this timetable is all HS services to/from Ashford calling at Ebbsfleet. A disappointment if it is still going ahead.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

One other thing that I believe is going ahead from this timetable is all HS services to/from Ashford calling at Ebbsfleet. A disappointment if it is still going ahead.

It makes perfect sense to me. If volumes are down and so are services, then everything should stop there.

 

[4BEP]

It’s been suggested elsewhere as a half-hourly Ashford to Victoria (and wherever else east of Ashford as required by the timetable) and then an hourly Maidstone to Charing Cross.

Would be interesting to see what stops the Maidstone to Charing Cross makes, not least because it could be very useful to certain places.

When the service first started it was from Folkestone Central and only called at Borough Green before the London stops after MDE. The service was usually 365s with the odd CEP/CIG. West Malling was added later with LBG still being reached well under 50 mins, A new service could call West Malling and Borough Green and then fast tp LBG. Remember, at one time the Victoria fasts only called at Borough Green and Bromley South running with HAPs.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

When the service first started it was from Folkestone Central and only called at Borough Green before the London stops after MDE. The service was usually 365s with the odd CEP/CIG. West Malling was added later with LBG still being reached well under 50 mins, A new service could call West Malling and Borough Green and then fast tp LBG. Remember, at one time the Victoria fasts only called at Borough Green and Bromley South running with HAPs.

The service has obviously been quite badly degraded. If you assumed a train leaves Victoria at 12:00, and calls all stations to Maidstone including St Mary Cray and Kemsing (also Barming etc) then you get to Maidstone East at about 13:04.

If a 12:30 leaves and then calls at Bromley, St Mary Cray [don’t much like the current bad spread of departures on fast Victorias, so make sure that extra stop is in there], Swanley, West Malling and Maidstone then you’ve potentially got an arrival at Maidstone of no later than 13:26, and then all stations down to Ashford.

All you have to do then is to gently tuck a Charing Cross to Ashford in behind, which stops at Swanley, Otford (new connections), Borough Green, West Malling, Maidstone, Bearsted and then Ashford and all the people at local stations east of Maidstone are then catered for with a change at Ashford, and you can allow passengers on a fast Victoria to jump ship at Swanley onto the Charing Cross for Otford and Borough Green.

That then allows that Charing Cross to be extended to be the “fast” one, so Ramsgate via Canterbury or whatever. One assumes the journey time would be relatively competitive as well, compared to the current slow service via Tonbridge.

 

[Chiltern006]

is the hayes-victoria service going ahead as mentioned at the start of the thread?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

is the hayes-victoria service going ahead as mentioned at the start of the thread?

Sadly I’m guessing not. It was part of a very wide range of measures in May 2022 as part of the then 2018 franchise let that would have included Maidstone West - Abbey Wood - London trains and then more High Speed Rochester starters and the like. As it is, I suspect most of the stuff except these random little bits are off the menu.

 

[BluePenguin]

id hope it goes via bromley south and the mid kent line. will give bromley commuters a much simpler journey to theatreland without needing the tube

What is wrong with Bromley South to Orpington and then on to Charing Cross on a fast train? This is completely valid on Oyster and contactless

 

[Chiltern006]

that’s a good point, however connections from the bromley train at orpington to the fast charing x train are very bad. was just an idea that’s all

 

[Class 466]

What is wrong with Bromley South to Orpington and then on to Charing Cross on a fast train? This is completely valid on Oyster and contactless

Given the widely commented on (on Twitter at least) plans to drop calls on the fast trains off peak at Orpington, this would be fairly impossible for a lot of people.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

that’s a good point, however connections from the bromley train at orpington to the fast charing x train are very bad. was just an idea that’s all

Well they used to be a lot better when it wasn’t only quarter-hourly. It was supposed to be half-hourly Southeastern east of Bromley to Orpington on completion of Thameslink’s all-day Orpington service. It never happened, and here we are now suffering for it.

 

[4BEP]

The service has obviously been quite badly degraded. If you assumed a train leaves Victoria at 12:00, and calls all stations to Maidstone including St Mary Cray and Kemsing (also Barming etc) then you get to Maidstone East at about 13:04.

If a 12:30 leaves and then calls at Bromley, St Mary Cray [don’t much like the current bad spread of departures on fast Victorias, so make sure that extra stop is in there], Swanley, West Malling and Maidstone then you’ve potentially got an arrival at Maidstone of no later than 13:26, and then all stations down to Ashford.

All you have to do then is to gently tuck a Charing Cross to Ashford in behind, which stops at Swanley, Otford (new connections), Borough Green, West Malling, Maidstone, Bearsted and then Ashford and all the people at local stations east of Maidstone are then catered for with a change at Ashford, and you can allow passengers on a fast Victoria to jump ship at Swanley onto the Charing Cross for Otford and Borough Green.

That then allows that Charing Cross to be extended to be the “fast” one, so Ramsgate via Canterbury or whatever. One assumes the journey time would be relatively competitive as well, compared to the current slow service via Tonbridge.

Yes, degraded they are, in the 1950s a HAL stopper could do Victoria Maidstone East in a little over the hour even with the split at Swanley. When the Charing Cross service started it was originally a diversion from the SEML when the line was being upgraded for Eurostar services, we even had a trolley service then. The attached photo shows an earlier diversion, during the SEML electrification, the Class 2 on the up service has a disc code indicating a Dover Priory to Blackfriars service.

 

[BluePenguin]

that’s a good point, however connections from the bromley train at orpington to the fast charing x train are very bad. was just an idea that’s all

That is a shame, it seems quite a lot of the Tunbridge Wells and Hastings services stop at Orpington. Thought there would be a lot of options

Given the widely commented on (on Twitter at least) plans to drop calls on the fast trains off peak at Orpington, this would be fairly impossible for a lot of people.

Admittedly doing this would speed up my already very slow journey to Charing Cross, although I appreciate Orpington is an important stop for many people

 

[4BEP]

That is a shame, it seems quite a lot of the Tunbridge Wells and Hastings services stop at Orpington. Thought there would be a lot of options


Admittedly doing this would speed up my already very slow journey to Charing Cross, although I appreciate Orpington is an important stop for many people

Orpington and Sevenoaks stops are very unpopular with passengers travelling to the Kent coast. Prior to 2009 the fastest semis ran non stop between Waterloo East and Tonbridge, and then Paddock Wood and Staplehurst to Ashford.

 

[cle]

Will something else run up to Blackfriars instead? Clearly there is some capacity. Is the Victoria-Denmark Hill-Dover (abridged!) service still operating?

 

[4BEP]

Up until around 2009, I recall, when a (usually) 4 car 465/9 left Cannon Street from 0914-1614, followed by the peak gap, and then a 1914. All went to Ashford.

I think those 465/9s were actually 365s, 465/9s to/from Maidstone only ran to Victoria.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I think those 465/9s were actually 365s, 465/9s to/from Maidstone only ran to Victoria.

I can definitely confirm I did some of the last ones that were 465/9s and ran between Cannon Street and Ashford. 365s were gone a long time before 2009.

 

[Class 466]

I think those 465/9s were actually 365s, 465/9s to/from Maidstone only ran to Victoria.

365s were gone by 2004, so 465/9s were used

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Will something else run up to Blackfriars instead? Clearly there is some capacity. Is the Victoria-Denmark Hill-Dover (abridged!) service still operating?

No nothing else will run to Blackfriars instead.

And yes the Victoria to Gillingham service is still running.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

As far as I understand the "sporadic" TL (planned Maidstone E - Cambs via London Bridge) is dead and buried in all but a public announcement

2tph Vic - Maidstone - Ashford (probably 1tph extension along Canterbury W line) + 1tph Maidstone E - Charing X (replacement for TL) is what I believe is happening

Maidstone West still retains its peak St Pancras HS1 services as far as I know

This will be good if it goes ahead.

But if these services are no longer to serve Canterbury West (outside the peaks) then surely, a Margate/Ramsgate-Canterbury West to Charing Cross needs to be restored?

 

[Class 466]

This will be good if it goes ahead.

But if these services are no longer to serve Canterbury West (outside the peaks) then surely, a Margate/Ramsgate-Canterbury West to Charing Cross needs to be restored?

I believe the trains to Charing X that start/terminate at Ashford currently will run from Ramsgate via Canterbury (all stations) from December with the Maidstone East Line only running to/from Ashford.

 

[Horizon22]

There really isn’t the capacity for a fast train along the Hayes line without it having a terrible path. Also the crossing moves at Beckenham Junction/New Beckenham are just asking for trouble as soon as there’s the tiniest delay somewhere.

Not to mention Ladywell and trying to find a (reliable) path in and around Lewisham!

Sadly I’m guessing not. It was part of a very wide range of measures in May 2022 as part of the then 2018 franchise let that would have included Maidstone West - Abbey Wood - London trains and then more High Speed Rochester starters and the like. As it is, I suspect most of the stuff except these random little bits are off the menu.

I’ve always thought this was a weird option anyway - most passengers south of New Beckenham that wanted Victoria would just take a service from Orpington. Okay there’s a new connection to Denmark Hill but the mid-Kent is already not miles away. Was more of a capacity and planning benefit that anything else.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Not to mention Ladywell and trying to find a (reliable) path in and around Lewisham!



I’ve always thought this was a weird option anyway - most passengers south of New Beckenham that wanted Victoria would just take a service from Orpington. Okay there’s a new connection to Denmark Hill but the mid-Kent is already not miles away. Was more of a capacity and planning benefit that anything else.

The assumption amongst many was that it made the Hayes line deliberately reduce in passenger numbers and therefore made the Bakerloo line extension the “saviour” to people…

 

[brad465]

I believe the trains to Charing X that start/terminate at Ashford currently will run from Ramsgate via Canterbury (all stations) from December with the Maidstone East Line only running to/from Ashford.

Will the alternating calling patterns remain the same (i.e. one service is semi-fast to Maidstone/Bearsted then all stations to Ashford, and vice versa for the other)?