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Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

Robski_

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Southeastern has announced that Alstom, Siemens, CAF, Hitachi and Stadler have been shortlisted for an "Invitation to negotiate" for the SE metro fleet replacement or improvement. Proposed (but not guaranteed) features include air con, toilets, level boarding of some sort, and on-board batteries.

Press release attached below.

One of the UK’s biggest and busiest passenger train operators is delighted to announce it has taken an important step towards delivering a multi-million-pound investment to improve its fleet of Metro trains.

Southeastern, which provides up to half a million journeys every day across south-east London, Kent and parts of Sussex, operates a mixed fleet of trains across Highspeed, longer distance Mainline services and its commuter-style, Metro, services.

Southeastern’s Metro services link busy London terminals such as Victoria, Charing Cross and Cannon Street with south-east London and parts of Kent, including Dartford, Sevenoaks, Grove Park and Gillingham.

As part of Southeastern’s goal of building a better, more reliable and sustainable railway, Southeastern has now published an Invitation to Negotiate with a number of shortlisted bidders. This includes a range of options, including new trains, trains cascaded in from other parts of the country or upgrading the current fleet.

This could be the largest investment in Southeastern for decades, but would also benefit taxpayers in the south-east and beyond as a new or improved Metro fleet would reduce maintenance and repair costs and be more energy efficient - all helping to reduce taxpayer subsidy and, in turn, encourage more people to travel by train.

The precise details of the improved fleet will be developed during the next stage of the procurement process but improvements could include:
  • Improved accessibility to maximise unassisted boarding – developed alongside The Rail Safety & Standards Board, Network Rail and manufacturers
  • Brighter and more spacious interiors in order to provide more space for more customers on our growing railway
  • Air conditioning to provide a better and more comfortable environment, particularly as our summers become warmer
  • Improved customer information to keep customers up-to-date and to plan onward journeys
  • More reliable trains with improved acceleration and braking to help deliver a more punctual and low-cancellation railway
  • Onboard batteries to keep trains running in the event of power supply failure as well as enhancing safety in stations, depots and sidings
The timescales for the introduction of the trains will also be developed as part of the procurement process. However, Southeastern has set bidders challenging targets to deliver as soon as possible.

Rail Minister Huw Merriman said:
“This is great news for the rail manufacturing industry and forms part of an estimated £3.6bn to support the sector in the coming years, making us one of the largest in Europe by the end of the decade.
“This Government continues to back rail manufacturers and today’s announcement demonstrates the UK market is a strong one, supporting high skilled jobs and boosting the economy right across the country.
“Modernising rolling stock is crucial to delivering a sustainable, reliable and growing rail network, encouraging more people to travel by train, and I’m pleased millions of passengers will be able to benefit from this investment for generations to come.”
Steve White, Managing Director, Southeastern, said:
“As part of our commitment to building a better, more reliable and sustainable railway we are pushing forward with our plans to develop our Metro operation into a high-performing railway.
“We are working at pace, with our partners at Network Rail, to improve performance, expand our timetable, enhance our stations and increase staffing levels. The final piece of the jigsaw will be the replacement of our aging Metro fleet.
“Despite the sterling work of our people to keep our current Metro fleets in service, our customers will know only too well that many of the trains are tired and, in terms of accessibility and customer facilities, have fallen behind what is available elsewhere on the Southeastern network and across the country.
“We are now inviting competitive offers from our short-listed suppliers and want to bring modern rolling stock to our railway for the benefit of customers and taxpayers.
“To ensure we make the right choice we will be working closely with Network Rail, the Rail Safety and Standards Board, our Accessible Travel Advisory Panel, the Trades Unions and the Department for Transport. There is a lot of work ahead, but the prize is significant.”
Southeastern is inviting competitive offers for new, refurbished or modern cascaded rolling stock for the benefit of customers and taxpayers. In this video, our Managing Director, Steve White explains the potential customer benefits of new trains.

It is too early to confirm specific designs or principles but when more information is available we will inform our customers and stakeholders. However, we can confirm the following manufacturers have been shortlisted for the Invitation to Negotiate for the potential manufacturer of new trains:
  • Alstom
  • CAF
  • Hitachi
  • Siemens
  • Stadler
Southeastern has also produced a customer FAQ to answer any further questions customers or stakeholders may have – it is available on our Train Improvements Page

 
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R

RailUK Forums

jojoseph72

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Would like to see them get additional 707’s manufactured for them.
Would be unlikely as IIRC the assembly line for that family of trains is now closed - could be restarted but would come at a higher cost. Is do-able and not unheard of, but with this government wanting to do everything on the cheap and the Derby factory desperate for orders its unlikely Siemens would be the cheapest option.

I would hedge my bets on Alstom winning it as the combo of Alstom desperation for orders and the want from the government for orders to arrive ASAP could lead to a good deal being struck, plus the Political side of things (e.g. the idea the government has come and saved the Derby Factory).

Personally I would prefer either Siemens or Stadler winning the order.
 

Milo T.K

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I would hedge my bets on Alstom winning it as the combo of Alstom desperation for orders and the want from the government for orders to arrive ASAP could lead to a good deal being struck, plus the Political side of things (e.g. the idea the government has come and saved the Derby Factory).

Personally I would prefer either Siemens or Stadler winning the order.
I second this. Dear god help us if CAF gets it
 

jojoseph72

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Is there a chance that the new trains could have 100% longitudinal seating?
Unlikely - these train would be expected to mainly cover metro services, but be to be able to cover all services across the whole SE Network except SE Highspeed IF needed (e.g. be able to cover for 377/375s if they failed).
It would likely see a 2+2 and some 1+1 seating layout to allow for more standing space - I would say similar to what is seen on the Class 730/0s.
 

RealTrains07

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“Challenging targets to deliver as soon as possible”

Thats doesn't sound like the way to get good results from a process like this.

I would be very surprised if a manufacturer other than Alstom wins the contract for this tbh given the current climate
 

Snow1964

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Could the order be changed if southeastern metro services go over to TFL? That could happen when labour get in.
Rather depends on when contract is signed and election is held.

The current Government might rush it through, and contract could have some very expensive variation clauses (and quicker it is negotiated the less squeezing these down is likely), which would make amending expensive.
 

Snow1964

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More prospective work for Derby then?

Potentially yes, (depending on price and availability timescales).

Although there is question of do they build a class 710 clone (perhaps not troublesome 701) or maybe build version of the Ireland BEMU under construction (I think they are being built in Poland), or perhaps build a version of coradia stream (even if now called adessia). Having used the ones in southern Italy (branded as Pop) I'm very impressed with level boarding and raised seating at the ends that gives good view.

If the Italian ones can take 305 seating and 534 standing in 84m length, what could a SouthEastern version at about 200-210m length accommodate?

 
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TT-ONR-NRN

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Potentially yes, (depending on price and availability timescales).

Although there is question of do they build a class 720 clone (perhaps not troublesome 701) or maybe build version of the Ireland BEMU under construction (I think they are being built in Poland), or perhaps build a version of coradia stream (even if now called adessia). Having used the ones in southern Italy (branded as Pop) I'm very impressed with level boarding and raised seating at the ends that gives good view.

If the Italian ones can take 305 seating and 534 standing in 84m length, what could a SouthEastern version at about 200-210m length accommodate?

I had thought Alstom had closed production of Aventras, meaning it'd probably some sort of Adessia.
 

jojoseph72

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More prospective work for Derby then?
Very likely. From Alstom's perspective they are desperate for orders, From the Government perspective they can try and spin the order as them swooping in and saving Derby.
Siemens is safe a couple of years is safe with the LO order and Hitachi is safe for a bit while longer (IDK how long) as they still have a chunk of 80Xs to deliver.

Potentially yes, (depending on price and availability timescales).

Although there is question of do they build a class 720 clone (perhaps not troublesome 701) or maybe build version of the Ireland BEMU under construction (I think they are being built in Poland), or perhaps build a version of coradia stream (even if now called adessia). Having used the ones in southern Italy (branded as Pop) I'm very impressed with level boarding and raised seating at the ends that gives good view.
Likely it will be something that is already running on the UK railways as rolling stock from Mainland Europe may not be suitable for UK gauge. I'd hedge my bets on 701s or adapted 710s.

I had thought Alstom had closed production of Aventras
I think the Aventra production line is open but without orders - hence rumour of a handful of Class 345s for EL to save the factory from closing. So this order would be a saving grace for Derby.
 

brad465

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Is this an update on the tender notice SE issued a while back or an entirely new attempt to order a new fleet?
 

hwl

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Potentially yes, (depending on price and availability timescales).

Although there is question of do they build a class 720 clone (perhaps not troublesome 701) or maybe build version of the Ireland BEMU under construction (I think they are being built in Poland), or perhaps build a version of coradia stream (even if now called adessia). Having used the ones in southern Italy (branded as Pop) I'm very impressed with level boarding and raised seating at the ends that gives good view.

If the Italian ones can take 305 seating and 534 standing in 84m length, what could a SouthEastern version at about 200-210m length accommodate?

It won't be 720 clone as the loading gauge on SE is very restrictive and only allows 20m vehicles hence potentially a 701 or 710 clone.

It remains to be seen how much of the 701 issues are Alstom and how much is SWR / SWR staff / DfT not wanting to fund staff training before an election related in addition.

As reminder low floor units substantial reduce floor area and hence standing capacity and Alstom/Bombardier, CAF. Hitachi and Siemens all bid for the HS2 contract which required high floors and angled underfloor mounted gap fillers to meet the level boarding requirement - level boarding doesn't equate to low floor unless you are Stadler.

Very likely. From Alstom's perspective they are desperate for orders, From the Government perspective they can try and spin the order as them swooping in and saving Derby.
Siemens is safe a couple of years is safe with the LO order and Hitachi is safe for a bit while longer (IDK how long) as they still have a chunk of 80Xs to deliver.


Likely it will be something that is already running on the UK railways as rolling stock from Mainland Europe may not be suitable for UK gauge. I'd hedge my bets on 701s or adapted 710s.
It won't be and SE have very restrictive loading gauge issues
I think the Aventra production line is open but without orders - hence rumour of a handful of Class 345s for EL to save the factory from closing. So this order would be a saving grace for Derby.
I may end up being a suspiciously similar product just badged as Adessia

Is this an update on the tender notice SE issued a while back or an entirely new attempt to order a new fleet?
update
 

cav1975

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Given the emphasis on toilets in the video, hopefully the 707s will be retro-fitted if they are staying in the fleet.
 

ScotGG

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Is this an update on the tender notice SE issued a while back or an entirely new attempt to order a new fleet?
An update but saying little more than was said back in 2022. Not really sure what the point is. It's not an actual order.

If an order is made - and that's a big IF - will they go for trains that maximise 12-car formation? I doubt it. In fact I'd expect fewer seats so what is now a 10-car will be 8 with same capacity.

Then watch rail grow massively so when eventually introduced in 5 years it'll be a squeeze. Same thing happened with the original networker order with numbers cut back and that was short sited causing problems down the line.
 

jojoseph72

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It won't be and SE have very restrictive loading gauge issues
Both 701s and 710s would fit the restrict speck I believe - both trains coaches are 20m on average, which is what is currently seen on the SE Metro network.

I may end up being a suspiciously similar product just badged as Adessia
I still hedge my bets on it being an Aventra family train but most probably it’s final order for that family - but could be wrong.

If an order is made - and that's a big IF - will they go for trains that maximise 12-car formation? I doubt it. In fact I'd expect fewer seats so what is now a 10-car will be 8 with same capacity.
I can imagine the order being 10 cars units with maybe an option to extend them to 12 cars if exercised - but I think that’s too optimistic.
 
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As much as I'd like to see some sort of Aventra, they don't offer level boarding, so that's off the cards. Although... this seems a lot like PR speak doesn't it. People are hailing this to be some great new focus on passengers while I see it as just some sort of funny stunt.
 

Lockwood

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Aren't there a load of 5/10 car units sat idle at the moment? Low milage, one careful owner, smoke-free and pet-free environment
 

jojoseph72

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As much as I'd like to see some sort of Aventra, they don't offer level boarding, so that's off the cards. Although... this seems a lot like PR speak doesn't it. People are hailing this to be some great new focus on passengers while I see it as just some sort of funny stunt.
If SE actually get some level boarding trains (and that’s a big IF), I’d be genuinely surprised because that means for once the government didn’t pursue the cheapest quickest option but actually put some thought into it.
 
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If SE actually get some level boarding trains (and that’s a big IF), I’d be genuinely surprised because that means for once the government didn’t pursue the cheapest quickest option but actually put some thought into it.
In the video Steve makes a point about the level boarding prospect. But he also makes it clear the amount of other work which would be required. I was just sitting there thinking "they're never going to approve funding for all of that..."
 

Snow1964

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whoosh

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"Challenging targets to deliver as soon as possible."

Obviously going to be Alsthom product from Derby... and they'll obviously find it challenging!
 

Jturner98

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Anyone know who will be doing the maintenance? Will it be Southeastern or the manufacturer?
 

Mikey C

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The other question is whether the 376s and 707s will also be replaced, and if so, what happens to them.
 

Energy

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Thats doesn't sound like the way to get good results from a process like this.

I would be very surprised if a manufacturer other than Alstom wins the contract for this tbh given the current climate
Public tendering rules mean that the tender has to have the marking criteria and the contract is awarded based on the criteria.

Alstom may win, but it would have to be because it is a good bid. You can't award it to a bid that scored terribly just because it would be popular.

Local benefits can be part of the marking criteria but Siemens and Hitachi also have their own factories here.
Would be unlikely as IIRC the assembly line for that family of trains is now closed - could be restarted but would come at a higher cost. Is do-able and not unheard of, but with this government wanting to do everything on the cheap and the Derby factory desperate for orders its unlikely Siemens would be the cheapest option.
AFAIK Desiro City is still offered.
As reminder low floor units substantial reduce floor area and hence standing capacity and Alstom/Bombardier, CAF. Hitachi and Siemens all bid for the HS2 contract which required high floors and angled underfloor mounted gap fillers to meet the level boarding requirement - level boarding doesn't equate to low floor unless you are Stadler.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was standard 20m units and humps on the platform.
 

Robski_

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More details from Southeastern MD through Twitter, providing clarification on the specification:
Spec has been developed with NR and our technical advisers. We are inviting competitive offers for a high performance metro fleet with air con, toilet, level boarding and battery.
 

Bletchleyite

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It remains to be seen how much of the 701 issues are Alstom and how much is SWR / SWR staff / DfT not wanting to fund staff training before an election related in addition.

This is a good point given that London Overground introduced 20m Aventras without a hint of problems. The longer cab variant to be fair, but if that's the issue just order that. The 730 interior would be a perfect fit.
 

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