Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[Thirteen]

Out of interest, is the Alstom Xtrapolis which is being used for DART+ in Ireland and Melbourne suitable for SouthEastern?

 

[NSEWonderer]

Out of interest, is the Alstom Xtrapolis which is being used for DART+ in Ireland and Melbourne suitable for SouthEastern?

It will most likely be a Variant. Not that my personal tastes matter but these look like Tanks on Rails.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Out of interest, is the Alstom Xtrapolis which is being used for DART+ in Ireland and Melbourne suitable for SouthEastern?

It will most likely be a Variant. Not that my personal tastes matter but these look like Tanks on Rails.

The Melbourne Xtrapolis currently in service in Melbourne are absolutely horrible, and tiny. The new ones look much better from the mock ups but we’re yet to see how customers will take to them.

 

[TRAX]

Out of interest, is the Alstom Xtrapolis which is being used for DART+ in Ireland and Melbourne suitable for SouthEastern?

Adessia is precisely the new name of the X’Trapolis platform (and more…).

 

[dorsetdesiro]

If Siemens are successful with this to assemble the new fleet at Goole, if the Desiro City has been discontinued then would it be impossible to have the new fleet, Verve or whatever name, to be compatible with the 707s?

It would have made more sense to manufacture more Desiro City's which is probably more unlikely as the focus would be on the new design moving away from the 20 year old Desiro UK platform.

So the 707s seem to be doomed as a micro-fleet, probably destined for likes of the Bromley North branch?

 

[Recessio]

Scrap the bodies and build new on the underframes...

You joke, but this was considered in the early days of privatisation - the class 424 "Networker Classic" was essentially a Networker body bodged onto a slam-door underframe, aimed at the then Connex franchises who needed to replace the slam-door stock.

As with most of these situations though, it turned out to be barely cheaper than ordering a new train. So I don't think it's an option for the current Southeastern tender, even if interest rates have made leasing new stock less affordable than it used to be.

 

[Stephen42]

If Siemens are successful with this to assemble the new fleet at Goole, if the Desiro City has been discontinued then would it be impossible to have the new fleet, Verve or whatever name, be compatible with the 707s?

It would have made more sense to manufacture more Desiro City's which is probably more unlikely as the focus would be on the new design moving away from the 20 year old Desiro UK platform.

So the 707s seem to be doomed as a micro-fleet, probably destined for likes of the Bromley North branch?

There will be little desire to couple the new fleet to the 707s, it's likely the new fleet would be in even number of 20m vehicles and the 707s are odd number. A pair of 707s will be sufficient for many peak services and there are sidings where 10-car is the maximum that can be accommodated. Cost wise the 707s would be cheaper than the new fleet at a guess and the vehicle count implies only the networkers will be replaced. Emergency coupling would be required but that's about it.

The Bromley North branch is likely to remain as the shortest useable unit all Grove Park drivers sign rather than a separate fleet. I doubt Southeastern will have large fixed formation trains for the new fleet so there may 4-cars that can replace the equivalent networker in the new fleet.

 

[MML]

It would make sense for Southeastern to re-equip with a new single uniform fleet. 707 could then move to Southern Metro services giving commonality with GTR 700 and 717 fleet. 377 and 387 could then cascade to strengthen Southern or Great Northern outer services.

 

[GeekyJamez]

It would make sense for Southeastern to re-equip with a new single uniform fleet. 707 could then move to Southern Metro services giving commonality with GTR 700 and 717 fleet. 377 and 387 could then cascade to strengthen Southern or Great Northern outer services.

That would make sense so probably won't happen!

 

[Mikey C]

It would make sense for Southeastern to re-equip with a new single uniform fleet. 707 could then move to Southern Metro services giving commonality with GTR 700 and 717 fleet. 377 and 387 could then cascade to strengthen Southern or Great Northern outer services.

That would make sense, but there's also the 376s to consider. Replace all the metro trains, and there's 2 fleets needing homes. Just replace the Networkers, and Southeastern end up with a horribly diverse metro fleet.

 

[Wolfie]

It would make sense for Southeastern to re-equip with a new single uniform fleet. 707 could then move to Southern Metro services giving commonality with GTR 700 and 717 fleet. 377 and 387 could then cascade to strengthen Southern or Great Northern outer services.

Perhaps operational sense. I seriously doubt that HMT or DfT would agree that it makes financial sense.

 

[LUYMun]

Scrap the bodies and build new on the underframes...

Class 387 body on a Networker chassis, anyone?

 

[meld3]

A close relative who is a senior auditor / civil servant in the Treasury, has never heard of the expression "buy cheap, buy twice" and thinks I've just made it up.....
It just about sums everything up !!

 

[Minstral25]

It would make sense for Southeastern to re-equip with a new single uniform fleet. 707 could then move to Southern Metro services giving commonality with GTR 700 and 717 fleet. 377 and 387 could then cascade to strengthen Southern or Great Northern outer services.

Idea is plausible except where would they be maintained, commonality won't work on Southern due to depot locations and uses.

Three Bridges is right sized for the Thameslink 700 fleet and Hornsey for the 700 and 717 fleet. Selhurst the main maintenance depot for Southern Metro Services currently only deals with Electrostars of various varieties plus deals with mainline outer units as well.

 

[Notchapple]

(Deleted)

 

[brad465]

Recently Networkers stored at Worksop have been following what the 465/2s experienced in their early storage time and being moved from there to Ely. At least 3 units have gone (465921, 466005 and 465905), if they're being moved does this mean they were actually in warm storage in Worksop?

 

[43096]

Recently Networkers stored at Worksop have been following what the 465/2s experienced in their early storage time and being moved from there to Ely. At least 3 units have gone (465921, 466005 and 465905), if they're being moved does this mean they were actually in warm storage in Worksop?

Or that the Worksop storage was for SouthEastern and they are moving to Ely when they are taken off lease.

 

[Stephen42]

Or that the Worksop storage was for SouthEastern and they are moving to Ely when they are taken off lease.

This seems the most likely. A recent FOI request confirms that all the out of service stored Networkers on lease are at Worksop and that a significant number are now off lease (spreadsheet is as of start of this month).

Southeastern haven't specified the location of any with Angel Trains as its not their data, many of those off lease have been reported to be at Ely.

 

[brad465]

Or that the Worksop storage was for SouthEastern and they are moving to Ely when they are taken off lease.

I see, did 465235 go straight from Worksop to Doncaster to be a parts donor then, so Southeastern technically didn't take it back? I'm pretty sure the 466 donor meets this as until now 466s never ventured to Ely. If they can't get all the remaining MetCam units off lease when the 377s come over they could well need more part donor units on standby.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Although they will most likely act as part donors for the /9s and 466s still in service, there is a very small chance they could be repairing them at Ely. I believe 465912 was repaired at Ely in 2022?

 

[brad465]

Although they will most likely act as part donors for the /9s and 466s still in service, there is a very small chance they could be repairing them at Ely. I believe 465912 was repaired at Ely in 2022?

912 went to Ely for a time, but that was while a couple of 465/2s were inspected at Doncaster works, the latter location is where most of the heavy maintenance/repairs for MetCam units takes place.

 

[ScotGG]

I've lost track of this. Tender announced about two years and three months ago. Is that normal to wait so long? When/if will any decision be announced?

Hope I'm wrong but I can see DfT cuts putting the blockers on. Lease costs will be high with interest rates being what they are and the treasury doesn't seem too keen to fund the higher subsidies that will require.

With 13 Class 377's heading over that could displace Networkers as part donors could that keep the overall fleet going for another 5-10 years?

 

[Thirteen]

I've lost track of this. Tender announced about two years and three months ago. Is that normal to wait so long? When/if will any decision be announced?

Hope I'm wrong but I can see DfT cuts putting the blockers on. Lease costs will be high with interest rates being what they are and the treasury doesn't seem too keen to fund the higher subsidies that will require.

They'll need to replace the Networkers either way unless we want clapped out trains until the next election.

 

[JonathanH]

They'll need to replace the Networkers either way unless we want clapped out trains until the next election.

Huh? It is way down the list of the things voters make decisions based on. Does anyone consider that the use of Networkers is the fault of the government?

 

[43066]

With 13 Class 377's heading over that could displace Networkers as part donors could that keep the overall fleet going for another 5-10 years?

That seems likely. Presumably we’d be looking at a few years even if the decision was taken to order a new fleet tomorrow, especially given the large size of the Networker fleet.

They'll need to replace the Networkers either way unless we want clapped out trains until the next election.

They could justify sprucing the interiors up if it was known the fleet would be in use for another decade.

 

[brad465]

They could justify sprucing the interiors up if it was known the fleet would be in use for another decade.

Southeastern prior to OLR life has been setback by chopping and changing operators and/or short-term contract extensions that deters proper investment. Connex was terminated 8 years early, then it was nationalised for 3 years. Govia took over in 2006 for 8 years, which was the longest period of relative stability, before getting a 4-year extension. The, things got really messy as extensions happened every 6 months until 2020, when an 18-month extension was granted that was ultimately the last before becoming an OLR.

This period was not devoid of refurbishment and fleet investment, the 8-year period saw the HS1 services introduced (even if they were confirmed before Govia took over), then the following 4-year period saw the very successful 375 mid-life refurbishment. But the Networkers were only given up to 3 light-touch refurbishments: the 465/9 creation, a general seat moquette change and exterior vinyl change around the 2010 mark, and the PRM requirement work. Then of course the 376s are now about to get their first ever refurb work since introduction. The short-term contract extensions were enough to allow small fleet increases/replacements, like 377/5s, 707s and soon to be 377/1s, but not enough for major replacements/refurbishments. If Southeastern had been given a much longer contract in 2014 or 2018, I'd be willing to bet the Networkers would all be gone by now, along with the 376s if going for a common fleet (unless their replacements were 701s).

 

[Mikey C]

Alternatively, if the Networkers had been given a comprehensive refurbishment, and even retractioning of the GEC ones, then maybe they'd be good for another 5-10 years. The SWT/SWR 455s have had a LOT more work done to them, while the Chiltern and GWR 165s have had air cooling fitted.

 

[43066]

Southeastern prior to OLR life has been setback by chopping and changing operators and/or short-term contract extensions that deters proper investment. Connex was terminated 8 years early, then it was nationalised for 3 years. Govia took over in 2006 for 8 years, which was the longest period of relative stability, before getting a 4-year extension. The, things got really messy as extensions happened every 6 months until 2020, when an 18-month extension was granted that was ultimately the last before becoming an OLR.

This period was not devoid of refurbishment and fleet investment, the 8-year period saw the HS1 services introduced (even if they were confirmed before Govia took over), then the following 4-year period saw the very successful 375 mid-life refurbishment. But the Networkers were only given up to 3 light-touch refurbishments: the 465/9 creation, a general seat moquette change and exterior vinyl change around the 2010 mark, and the PRM requirement work. Then of course the 376s are now about to get their first ever refurb work since introduction. The short-term contract extensions were enough to allow small fleet increases/replacements, like 377/5s, 707s and soon to be 377/1s, but not enough for major replacements/refurbishments. If Southeastern had been given a much longer contract in 2014 or 2018, I'd be willing to bet the Networkers would all be gone by now, along with the 376s if going for a common fleet (unless their replacements were 701s).

The investment in refurbishment or fleet replacement ultimately requires sign off from the DfT, though, so I’m not sure how much impact contract length, and latterly OLR stewardship, will have had.

The SWT/SWR 455s have had a LOT more work done to them, while the Chiltern and GWR 165s have had air cooling fitted.

This is my thinking. No reason in principle why stock of any age can’t be maintained to a level where it’s reliable and continues to provide a decent passenger experience.
The 455s are a good example of this.

Equally the 376s are 10-15 years younger than the Networkers and I would say have worse interiors than the better Networker examples.

 

[gmaguire]

The 465/0/1/2 and 466 have had an interior refresh, but it was so long ago that they now look tired again. I think they repainted the walls and seat backs. There used to be NSE artwork at the carriage ends. The light covers and advert boards were changed from grey to blue. Lots of the windows were replaced because of heavy etching.

The 465/2s had new lino fitted in 2010s. Would’ve been nice if they also did the others, I do like the original floor pattern though.

 

[Thirteen]

This is my thinking. No reason in principle why stock of any age can’t be maintained to a level where it’s reliable and continues to provide a decent passenger experience.

You do need to replace rolling stock eventually once it's become more expensive to maintain it rather than replace it.