Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[43066]

Ah that explains it! How is it generating so much noise (which is very noticeable as you mention) without any airflow? Is it more realistic that proper ventilation can be installed, assuming actual cooling is too expensive?

When they were introduced it was described as “forced air cooling” or similar. It doesn’t work at all well and, as you’ve noticed, makes a hell of a racket.

When Connex/SE Trains first introduced the 376s they stated that air conditioning wasn’t viable due to the doors opening and closing on metro ops - clearly that wasn’t strictly true based on the London Overground 378s which came in only four years later. Sadly are no plans to retrofit the 376s based on what we’ve seen of the planned interior refurbs.

It’s certainly nice when a 707 turns up at the moment!

 

[Class 466]

Will SWR utilise all the 701s ordered in this post Covid world? Like there’s plenty of frequencies and service groups that aren’t anywhere near what they used to be. I’d love to live in a world where operating “sectors” could be a bit more dynamic with fleet allocation post GBR.

 

[Benjwri]

Will SWR utilise all the 701s ordered in this post Covid world? Like there’s plenty of frequencies and service groups that aren’t anywhere near what they used to be. I’d love to live in a world where operating “sectors” could be a bit more dynamic with fleet allocation post GBR.

Unfortunately the dynamicness of such fleets will likely be limited by crew traction and route knowledge, and what routes a train is cleared on.

 

[brad465]

Will SWR utilise all the 701s ordered in this post Covid world? Like there’s plenty of frequencies and service groups that aren’t anywhere near what they used to be. I’d love to live in a world where operating “sectors” could be a bit more dynamic with fleet allocation post GBR.

I can see a glut in capacity encouraging more travel to fill the excess capacity. That seems to be what developers see when a new road is built, while Southern saw the reverse effect when they binned off the 455s and 313s.

 

[Goldfish62]

Will SWR utilise all the 701s ordered in this post Covid world? Like there’s plenty of frequencies and service groups that aren’t anywhere near what they used to be. I’d love to live in a world where operating “sectors” could be a bit more dynamic with fleet allocation post GBR.

It certainly should be the case. It'll be a failure of the fully integrated railway if that doesn't happen.

 

[frankmoh]

Ah that explains it! How is it generating so much noise (which is very noticeable as you mention) without any airflow? Is it more realistic that proper ventilation can be installed, assuming actual cooling is too expensive?

The trains are 20 years old now so I assume SE doesn't want to be doing anything more other than the refresh they are currently doing with the seats and USB stuff. It's also going to be very difficult to take the 376 fleet out of service to fit AC and leave the metro service down 15 full trains. (have you ever seen a 5-car 376 before? I think not.)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The trains are 20 years old now so I assume SE doesn't want to be doing anything more other than the refresh they are currently doing with the seats and USB stuff. It's also going to be very difficult to take the 376 fleet out of service to fit AC and leave the metro service down 15 full trains. (have you ever seen a 5-car 376 before? I think not.)

18 full trains.
I actually have seen that, yes

 

[Class 466]

The trains are 20 years old now so I assume SE doesn't want to be doing anything more other than the refresh they are currently doing with the seats and USB stuff. It's also going to be very difficult to take the 376 fleet out of service to fit AC and leave the metro service down 15 full trains. (have you ever seen a 5-car 376 before? I think not.)

if they were to fit AC they'd obviously do one unit at a time - lets be realistic. 5 Car 376s are pretty common too - especially at weekends on the Cannon St to Orpington services for example.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, I have seen 376s working solo on occasion.

 

[frankmoh]

18 full trains.
I actually have seen that, yes

Close enough! Where did you see this 5-car (not full) 376? From my experience on metro lines, all the carriages get filled out pretty evenly on a 10-car train when doing up towards London, even during the off-peak.

 

[PGAT]

Yes, I have seen 376s working solo on occasion.

They are pretty standard on the North Kent line off-peak

 

[Geogregor]

Close enough! Where did you see this 5-car (not full) 376? From my experience on metro lines, all the carriages get filled out pretty evenly on a 10-car train when doing up towards London, even during the off-peak.

I have seen one this morning at Sydenham Hill, doing Beckenham Junction to Blackfriars run. Yes, I was surprised...

 

[Benjwri]

Close enough! Where did you see this 5-car (not full) 376? From my experience on metro lines, all the carriages get filled out pretty evenly on a 10-car train when doing up towards London, even during the off-peak.

I perhaps have a bit of an advantage in the SE approach to Victoria being in front of my desk when I work from home, but I see them all the time. In fact I saw multiple yesterday.

 

[Class15]

Hopefully Alstom doesn’t get this, the experience of Aventras on SWR should be enough to put them off. Maybe hitachi with a 385 variant?

 

[frankmoh]

Hopefully Alstom doesn’t get this, the experience of Aventras on SWR should be enough to put them off. Maybe hitachi with a 385 variant?

Seems plausible given SE already run the A-train 395, even though I think the 385 are ugly as sin. Hopefully they will ask for a variant without the front gangway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2025 ==

speaking of the 395s, do you guys think SE will get a new HS1 train any time soon?

 

[Class 466]

Seems plausible given SE already run the A-train 395, even though I think the 385 are ugly as sin. Hopefully they will ask for a variant without the front gangway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2025 ==

speaking of the 395s, do you guys think SE will get a new HS1 train any time soon?

No plans - 395s currently having a massive software/passenger info/CCTV upgrade that pretty much puts them on a level with 80x fleets - so much so that 395027 (when it's released to traffic) and any others after will not be compatible with non-upgraded units.

 

[Timmyd]

I have seen one this morning at Sydenham Hill, doing Beckenham Junction to Blackfriars run. Yes, I was surprised...

One of the two morning diagrams every day now is a 376, has been since December. First time I’ve seen anything other than Networkers on SE stopping services on that line since the EPBs.

 

[frankmoh]

One of the two morning diagrams every day now is a 376, has been since December. First time I’ve seen anything other than Networkers on SE stopping services on that line since the EPBs.

Speaking of old services involving Beckenham Junction, does the route for New Beckenham to Beckenham Junction get used still? I've heard pre-COVID they ran it sometimes in the early morning but I don't know about 2025. Perhaps they only use it when stuff is being worked on from Clock House to Hayes? (although I seem to recall a story of a service terminating at Elmers End for some reason)

 

[Doomotron]

Seems plausible given SE already run the A-train 395, even though I think the 385 are ugly as sin. Hopefully they will ask for a variant without the front gangway.

The 385 is an AT200, which is the equivalent of a 375. If Hitachi won the contract for the Networker replacement they'd undoubtedly build AT100s, of which none have been built yet. I believe that's only offered without a front gangway but I could be wrong. There are a few renders released by Hitachi of the trains, but I can't find them.

speaking of the 395s, do you guys think SE will get a new HS1 train any time soon?

There was talk (nothing official obviously) of a limited number of bi-mode AT300s being ordered for the hypothetical Marshlink high speed services. Of course, they're not happening and likely never will so it's just a proposal. Beyond that, there's nothing about new high speed trains for Southeastern. I wouldn't expect to hear anything for at least another 15 years, unless something major happens.

 

[frankmoh]

Can anyone tell me if the yellow 376s have gone extinct now as per the refurbs? I assume they have all been put in the new blue livery?

 

[Class15]

Can anyone tell me if the yellow 376s have gone extinct now as per the refurbs? I assume they have all been put in the new blue livery?

No most are still in yellow & white

 

[frankmoh]

No most are still in yellow & white

Really? I have only seen blue ones since last month on the Hayes Line. Does anyone have any photos of the yellow ones from the past month?

 

[brad465]

No plans - 395s currently having a massive software/passenger info/CCTV upgrade that pretty much puts them on a level with 80x fleets - so much so that 395027 (when it's released to traffic) and any others after will not be compatible with non-upgraded units.

Yes they are probably only mid-life at the moment; their 30th birthday is 2039 (or the year before if when testing began is included).

Close enough! Where did you see this 5-car (not full) 376? From my experience on metro lines, all the carriages get filled out pretty evenly on a 10-car train when doing up towards London, even during the off-peak.

Since the timetable change the 08:47 Crayford-Blackfriars now appears to be a 5-car 376. This cannot be a 10-car as all intermediate stations after Lewisham are 8-car max. I believe one of the Beckenham Jct-Blackfriars' allocations is a 5-car 376 as well, again not able to be 10-car as no platforms on this route can take that length.

 

[frankmoh]

Yes they are probably only mid-life at the moment; their 30th birthday is 2039 (or the year before if when testing began is included).


Since the timetable change the 08:47 Crayford-Blackfriars now appears to be a 5-car 376. This cannot be a 10-car as all intermediate stations after Lewisham are 8-car max. I believe one of the Beckenham Jct-Blackfriars' allocations is a 5-car 376 as well, again not able to be 10-car as no platforms on this route can take that length.

SE continues to baffle me by not running 8-car trains on metro routes for stations with only 8 car length platforms. During morning peak times too!

 

[Class 466]

SE continues to baffle me by not running 8-car trains on metro routes for stations with only 8 car length platforms. During morning peak times too!

Literally everything else is an 8 car - the Beckenham Jn to Blackfriars & the Crayford to Blackfriars do not warrant that formation based on loadings.

 

[wls1]

last newest one i saw was 016 out this week/late last week so still plenty to do.

also there are plenty of 5 car 376s out for the may timetable. all the Beckenham Junction - Blackfriars morning extras are single 376s, as well as a lot of Cannon St - Cannon St rounder services, Cannon St - Dartford and a number of peak extras over the Sidcup line are now single 376

 

[frankmoh]

The 376s are (rightfully) maligned for having no AC, but I never hear people complaining about then being warm in the winter! Seriously though, why did SE not give the 376 AC unlike the 375s or 377s? (yes I know the 377s were from other operators but still)

 

[Class 466]

The 376s are (rightfully) maligned for having no AC, but I never hear people complaining about then being warm in the winter! Seriously though, why did SE not give the 376 AC unlike the 375s or 377s? (yes I know the 377s were from other operators but still)

Connex/SET ordered them without. Hence the opening windows. The 2006 Kent Integrated Franchise didn’t include funding to refurbish 376s at all - that finished in June 2018 and was replaced by a Direct Award which included basically no funding for any improvements at all - and then Covid happened, then the franchise was nationalised in 2021. At no point has there been the funding to do it.

 

[CarrotPie]

Close enough! Where did you see this 5-car (not full) 376? From my experience on metro lines, all the carriages get filled out pretty evenly on a 10-car train when doing up towards London, even during the off-peak.

I got one on a Cannon St rounder last week - coming into London Bridge at about 1600 on a weekday, it was pretty empty.

 

[ScotGG]

Goodness the 376s are horrible in this hot weather. No air con was such a mistake. They've been horrible to use with warm temperatures for months and we still have months to go of potential heat.

At least the networkers get a decent breeze going (mostly) and have the vents. The 376s have no respite wherever you sit. With 20 years of life left it's a shocker they aren't getting air con.