Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[dorsetdesiro]

I find it strange that Stagecoach are partnering with Alstom, given that they had a close partnership with Siemens, when they ran SWT, also they had reliability mishaps with the Juniper units.

Is it true that Alstom and Siemens are merging, is that going ahead? Siemens would perhaps be the bigger partner in this possible merger then would have more influence in the building of the trains therefore better reliability?

 

[ComUtoR]

I don't doubt this (especially coming from you!) but is there a public source on this?

It will most likely be in the group standards somewhere. They can be a nightmare to search through. I also think it was **part of the agreement when the 376 was brought in. No journeys over an hour, which is why you see 57 minutes mentioned on the wiki and I've only ever known it as max 59 mins. I wish there was something I could quote but its anecdotal evidence only at this time.

Initial search effort...

https://www.rssb.co.uk/library/improving-industry-performance/2016-08-key-train-requirements.pdf

3.10 Toilets
3.10.1 Whilst the provision of toilets on trains is now very much the accepted norm, it should not be automatically assumed that this is appropriate for all types of train operating all types of duty cycle. As an example, passenger capacity on metro is frequently a critical factor in train design and the installation of toilets inevitably occupies a significant amount of space. It is therefore common practice worldwide not to provide toilets where this type of train is operating
intensive services with frequent stops into and across large conurbations. It is therefore recommended that, when considering the provision of toilets, consideration is given to typical journey times and to the potential availability of toilets at stations and other locations nearby.

https://www.rssb.co.uk/library/grou...-technical-requirements-for-rolling-stock.pdf

3.8.2
Given the critical importance of toilets to passenger comfort, particularly on longer journeys, toilet provision, in terms of the ratio of seats to toilets, requires careful consideration. It is suggested that the minimum acceptable level of provision should be:

For intercity or inter-urban services, 85 seats per toilet

For short distance / commuter services, 125 seats per toilet

There is also a recommendation that when passengers are stranded that they need to be able to access toilets within an hour. You would have to go back to the design spec for 376s and check if there are any derogation's.

**Edit

More quick google research is coming up with SE agreeing to add more toilets on stations to compensate for running without toilets. That aligns with the key train requirements but again, nothing specifically mentioning a 57 minute limit. Its written somewhere but hell if I can find it.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

The lack of toilets does limit their use to routes that take no more than roughly an hour's duration. Definitely seen this elsewhere in the past, but struggling to locate the material myself. The VIC-ORP route wouldn't have a problem, as it runs end-to-end in about 38 minutes.

Instead, what really stops the 376s from routinely running the VIC-ORP route is because at 10 coaches long, a 10-coach 376 would not fit on some of the platforms - including the Southbound platform at Brixton, or Herne Hill and AFAIK, the trains aren't kitted out for proper ASDO. Brixton in particular is _really_ tight - the back of an 8-coach networker is on the ramp, beyond the "No trespassing" sign.

If ever, the only time you'll see a 376 doing the Orpington to Victoria route is if a Networker has somehow become unavailable and a spare 376 just so happens to be sitting around, ready to run as a 5-coach. Running it as a 10-coach isn't really possible unless they choose to skip the short stations.

 

[ComUtoR]

You also can't run 10-cars in service due to it being against operational instructions.

 

[swt_passenger]

The subject of a time limit has come up with respect to other stock without toilets operating routes longer than one hour, such as Southern 313s, and SWT 455s, and no ‘rule’ has ever been found in all the many discussions in these forums.

Even if the latest guidance implies a one hour limit, it doesn’t read as if it is retrospective.

 

[Barn]

Even if it isn't a legal / RSSB requirement, it's still a perfectly sensible policy for Southeastern to choose to implement when deciding on its rolling stock allocations.

 

[bramling]

The subject of a time limit has come up with respect to other stock without toilets operating routes longer than one hour, such as Southern 313s, and SWT 455s, and no ‘rule’ has ever been found in all the many discussions in these forums.

Even if the latest guidance implies a one hour limit, it doesn’t read as if it is retrospective.

Up until May we had 313s doing Letchworth to Moorgate which is over an hour. Albeit few would do the whole journey.

I suspect it’s something which may be regarded as good practice when drawing up rolling stock diagrams, but no more than that.

 

[ComUtoR]

With 'Good Practice' and 'Guidance' and 'Recommendations' They are still rules as such and shouldn't be ignored. The guidance regarding accessing a toilet within an hour came from the guidance for 'when passengers are stranded' Considering that also came up in the Lewisham thread and was a contributory factor in people egressing; I don't believe that guidance should be easily dismissed.

When it comes to implementing promises into a new franchise I think that letting a TOC act in good faith and working together to set their own rules and working practices goes much further than setting hard and fast rules that often become more detrimental in the long term.

 

[brad465]

In light of today's announcement of the government reviewing the rail system, could there be another extension to the current Southeastern franchise until this review (however effective it will be) is complete? I can see the review taking more time than there is left till the November decision, maybe even threatening the April 2019 handover date.
Given it's been done before in other franchises, it wouldn't be a surprise, but not ideal either.

 

[ScotGG]

It'll be about the 4th extension if so and a bit ridiculous. Yet more time with networkers falling apart and the network going nowhere.

It'll only see more continuing to call for TfL devolution of Metro routes. When Grayling finally goes the new transport sec would find many London Tories supporting that (plus some funds to assist perhaps). Tory politicians in London would certainly get a short term boost from such a decision.

 

[brad465]

Yes I agree it would be a stupid idea to extend it, but considering all the problems with the railway in general and franchise management especially, I'm personally not ruling it out. I've lost count of the number of years/times the West Coast franchise has been extended since the apparent "bidding flaw" years ago

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Most of it is behind a paywall, but the Telegraph has put out an article about the candidates having to re-submit their bids:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...haos-looms-bidding-south-eastern-faces-delay/

Abellio, Stagecoach and Govia have been asked to re-submit bids for the multibillion-pound South Eastern franchise, The Sunday Telegraph understands.

The decision could have grave implications for the vital rail artery that links London and the South-East, carrying 180 million passengers a year. With Govia, the incumbent operator, threatened with losing its operating licence, ministers could be left with no option but to renationalise the network as the delayed selection process is completed.

Insiders expect this summer’s retendering process – which required them to make new guarantees over workers’ pensions – to push back an already delayed timetable

Looks like we'll be waiting a bit longer, then.

 

[KingJ]

It will most likely be in the group standards somewhere. They can be a nightmare to search through. I also think it was **part of the agreement when the 376 was brought in. No journeys over an hour, which is why you see 57 minutes mentioned on the wiki and I've only ever known it as max 59 mins. I wish there was something I could quote but its anecdotal evidence only at this time.

Initial search effort...

https://www.rssb.co.uk/library/improving-industry-performance/2016-08-key-train-requirements.pdf


https://www.rssb.co.uk/library/grou...-technical-requirements-for-rolling-stock.pdf


There is also a recommendation that when passengers are stranded that they need to be able to access toilets within an hour. You would have to go back to the design spec for 376s and check if there are any derogation's.

**Edit

More quick google research is coming up with SE agreeing to add more toilets on stations to compensate for running without toilets. That aligns with the key train requirements but again, nothing specifically mentioning a 57 minute limit. Its written somewhere but hell if I can find it.

Thank you very much for finding these documents - i'd not seen them before and they do make for interesting reading, especially comparing how the recommendations align with reality! (not to mention on areas beyond toilets, they're quite extensive documents).

 

[HH]

1. The bids have been re-submitted already.
2. DfT already have the option for extending the current extension for another 3 months.
3. Although DfT took the opportunity of issuing instructions on Pensions (which it should have done originally), the main reason for the re-bid was train plan issues.

Anyway, it's not yet a disaster. Who are the "some" who think the decision may be delayed until after Easter 2019, I wonder? What would be the point in delaying it so long?

 

[Barn]

Has the specification changed (especially the service pattern requirements) or is it just that different bids have now been made against broadly the same requirements?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Explains why DOR2 Ltd has come into being...

 

[Mollman]

I know it is the DfT we are talking about but even they can't be stupid enough to withdraw Go-Ahead's licence leaving South Eastern with no operator. Anyway as ThamesLink etc. is a management franchise doesn't that means that DfT is ultimately responsible?

 

[OxtedSignaller]

I'd expect another reason for the delay is relating to the Glacier inquiry if Govia are found to be considerably negligent and at fault for the Thameslink timetabling fiasco I cannot see the government wanting to award them another lucrative contract especially judging by their track record. But then on the other hand they have also got Stagecoach bidding who also recently lost a contract but due to it being more financial reasons I can see the government being more sympathetic.

I'd say it's highly unlikely they lose their operating licence especially if you look at the special relationship the DfT and Govia seemingly share however it cannot be ruled out so it would be silly to plan on the assumption it won't until its confirmed not to be the case.

 

[HH]

Has the specification changed (especially the service pattern requirements) or is it just that different bids have now been made against broadly the same requirements?

It's largely about fixing certain errors in the submitted train plans, i.e. the timetables, unit diagrams, etc. TBH what's submitted in the bid and what actually gets run are "not identical" (British understatement), but I guess since the GTR TT fiasco, DfT have got rather nervous about TTs that don't work.

 

[Class 466]

If the DFT are about to launch a review into how Railway franchising works in the UK - it (to me at least) would seem a little odd to issue a franchise on the current terms whilst that review is ongoing... but stranger things have happened!

 

[Barn]

Unless the franchise was let with this flexibility built in, I suspect that each extension (or 'direct award') given to the current franchisee is effectively unlawful, and the DfT has just worked on the basis that they know who the industry players are and that they are unlikely to bring a challenge whilst the DfT is actively procuring the replacement. That might not last forever, though.

 

[hwl]

Explains why DOR2 Ltd has come into being...

No - DOR 1 was used up on VTEC. They always keep one ready and waiting. They already have DOR3-6 set up and in the freezer.

 

[hwl]

If the DFT are about to launch a review into how Railway franchising works in the UK - it (to me at least) would seem a little odd to issue a franchise on the current terms whilst that review is ongoing... but stranger things have happened!

It will be about 3 years before any franchises start that have taken on board the results of the review. DfT have been improving with every franchise at the moment so plenty of lessons already learnt without a root and branch review.

 

[KashmireHawker]

Rail Review only affect's CrossCountry franchise comp, which has been terminated, according to the DfT's statement.

 

[HH]

But there is a re-bid to the re-bid on this one (more Pensions stuff I understand, so shouldn't delay things much further).

 

[Japan0913]

Everyone, always thank you.
New franchisor Where is likely ?
This time, it is determined?

 

[HH]

As I understand it, the re-re-bid has not yet been submitted; the LSER extension has not been called; no-one's admitting nothing.

I predict however, that the extension will be called, but that we will be seeing a new franchisee come the end of next June.

 

[KingJ]

Ashford station to Chart Leacon is 90mph, Chart Leacon to Postern is 100mph, Postern to Tonbridge is 90mph. The bulk of that is Chart Leacon to Postern at 25 miles so a simple calculation with a 'small margin for error' would suggest it possible to complete that section in 17 minutes so Ashford to Tonbridge could be done in less than 21 minutes. Add in a Paddock Wood call and it's probably only 25-26 minutes even with a 1 minute dwell time.

I know i'm quoting an older bit of the discussion, but there was a good example on Thursday (4/10/18) night of how quickly a train in passenger service can make the journey between Tonbridge and Ashford without making any intermediate stops.

I was on 2R78 (the 2210 London Charing Cross to Ramsgate), which picked up a 36 minute delay at Sevenoaks due to a passenger falling ill and needing the attendance of the ambulance service. Due to the length of the delay, the following service (2R80, the 2240 London Charing Cross to Dover Priory) caught up to it and overtook.

What followed is honestly what i'd consider to have been a good use of skip stopping to improve things for passengers. It was announced that 2R78 would be running fast from Tonbridge to Ashford, but that 2R80 would be making all intermediate stops as usual. 2R80 which had overtaken was routed in to Platform 2 at Tonbridge instead of Platform 3 as usual. It was then held there for a short while as 2R78 followed and went in to Platform 3. Any passengers on 2R78 could then transfer to 2R80 (if they hadn't already at Sevenoaks), whereas any passengers for Ashford and beyond could remain on 2R78. 2R78 was then dispatched first, and had a fast clear run to Ashford completing the journey in 23½ minutes instead of the regular 38 minutes - reducing the delay on departure from Tonbridge of 38 minutes to just 23 minutes upon departure from Ashford. I'm sure this is something that passengers who were travelling further afield were grateful of, especially given the late hour, and it didn't cause a tremendous disadvantage to passengers who wanted intermediate stops (beyond picking up a small delay and having to change trains). I've attached screenshots of the relevant bits of the schedule from RTT for anyone reading this in the near future when the data has dropped off of display on RTT!

Needless to say of course, hopefully the passenger who was taken ill was able to receive the appropriate medical attention and is now doing well.

 

[uxm]

I find it strange that Stagecoach are partnering with Alstom, given that they had a close partnership with Siemens, when they ran SWT, also they had reliability mishaps with the Juniper units.

Is it true that Alstom and Siemens are merging, is that going ahead? Siemens would perhaps be the bigger partner in this possible merger then would have more influence in the building of the trains therefore better reliability?

That got cancelled.

 

[Mollman]

That got cancelled.

Which bit, the Stagecoach with Alstom or the Alstom - Siemens merger?