Southeastern railcard prosecution

[123r234]

Hi new to this forum, wanted some advice on this situation please:

I was travelling with a 16-25 railcard today to London Victoria from my home station in Kent. The railcard expired in 2022 December and I altered the date to make it 23. I understand this is wrong and accept that, not to excuse but cost of living is tough and as a recent graduate even tougher financially. Unfortunately today a ticket officer scanned the railcard to discover it is expired. I offered to pay the difference for my journey but was issued an MG11 and was told SouthEastern would be in touch in regards to this to potentially prosecute. I was fully cooperative with giving my details and honest with the officer about how frequently I’ve used it. I’ve only used it around 2/3 times maybe 4 maximum this year. And maybe a maximum of 10 last year. Again not to excuse my actions but to give some context, I wasn’t using it every week etc excessively. At times I was using it to travel into university.

How can I resolve this as quickly as possibly without prosecution/ a criminal conviction? How likely are Southeastern to settle it out of court. As its not just general fare evasion, I understand altering the railcard has taken me to the grey area of fraud. I am worried it will result in a criminal conviction and really want to do everything to avoid that. I’m just at the beginning of my postgrad career and do not want a stupid decision based on my current financial hardship to affect my future. What can I do to get them to settle vs prosecute me? I can’t really afford a settlement amount, I’m guessing it will be 1k plus- but I can take out a credit card loan etc and would gladly take that over prosecution.

Please can anyone advise, I would be very grateful.

 

[island]

Southeastern are almost always willing to settle matters like these without the need for court action. Expect to pay £150 plus the full fare for the journeys you made without valid tickets (no credit will be given for the value of the invalid tickets).

 

[John R]

To add to @island ‘s comment about expect to pay the full fare, the railway will almost certainly base its fare calculation on the Anytime Single fare for each individual journey. If your journeys included long distance ones this could be very substantially more than, say, an Advance single fare which you might have bought.

So you might find it useful to go through every journey in your online account and work out (brfares.com will help) the likely settlement cost, to which should be added the £150 mentioned for the railway’s admin cost.

It’ll be a lot more than the £30 you tried to save unfortunately, which after all is only around 10 coffees or 5 pints of beer, so do tell anyone else you know that has done the same thing that it isn’t worth the risk.

 

[123r234]

Southeastern are almost always willing to settle matters like these without the need for court action. Expect to pay £150 plus the full fare for the journeys you made without valid tickets (no credit will be given for the value of the invalid tickets).

This is really reassuring that they are mostly willing to settle. And what did you mean no credit for the value of the invalid tickets- as in I expect to pay that cost as apart of the settlement?

 

[island]

This is really reassuring that they are mostly willing to settle. And what did you mean no credit for the value of the invalid tickets- as in I expect to pay that cost as apart of the settlement?

When they ask you to pay, they will ask you for the full price of tickets for the journeys you took. They will not calculate the difference between what you did pay and what you should have paid, they will consider the invalid tickets to be worthless.

 

[123r234]

To add to @island ‘s comment about expect to pay the full fare, the railway will almost certainly base its fare calculation on the Anytime Single fare for each individual journey. If your journeys included long distance ones this could be very substantially more than, say, an Advance single fare which you might have bought.

So you might find it useful to go through every journey in your online account and work out (brfares.com will help) the likely settlement cost, to which should be added the £150 mentioned for the railway’s admin cost.

It’ll be a lot more than the £30 you tried to save unfortunately, which after all is only around 10 coffees or 5 pints of beer, so do tell anyone else you know that has done the same thing that it isn’t worth the risk.

Thank you for the advice, i will have a look at brfares! Most of my journeys were my station in Kent to London victoria, and sometimes to Stratford (so the highspeed price ). They were generally anytime returns, after 10am ish so off peak hopefully idk if you meant they don’t consider that?

And to the last paragraph I agree, unfortunately yes its true- really frustrating I do wish I just renewed it.

 

[John R]

You will probably have to budget for an Anytime Single, not an Off-Peak Single unfortunately, given Southeastern’s usual practice.

 

[123r234]

Hi new to this forum, wanted some advice on this situation please:

I was travelling with a 16-25 railcard today to London Victoria from my home station in Kent. The railcard expired in 2022 December and I altered the date to make it 23. I understand this is wrong and accept that, not to excuse but cost of living is tough and as a recent graduate even tougher financially. Unfortunately today a ticket officer scanned the railcard to discover it is expired. I offered to pay the difference for my journey but was issued an MG11 and was told SouthEastern would be in touch in regards to this to potentially prosecute. I was fully cooperative with giving my details and honest with the officer about how frequently I’ve used it. I’ve only used it around 2/3 times maybe 4 maximum this year. And maybe a maximum of 10 last year. Again not to excuse my actions but to give some context, I wasn’t using it every week etc excessively. At times I was using it to travel into university.

How can I resolve this as quickly as possibly without prosecution/ a criminal conviction? How likely are Southeastern to settle it out of court. As its not just general fare evasion, I understand altering the railcard has taken me to the grey area of fraud. I am worried it will result in a criminal conviction and really want to do everything to avoid that. I’m just at the beginning of my postgrad career and do not want a stupid decision based on my current financial hardship to affect my future. What can I do to get them to settle vs prosecute me? I can’t really afford a settlement amount, I’m guessing it will be 1k plus- but I can take out a credit card loan etc and would gladly take that over prosecution.

Please can anyone advise, I would be very grateful.

Hello, also I haven’t used the railcard on many other journeys. Additionally, how would they know if I had as physical tickets are not linked to a passenger by name and neither are the tickets on train line. How would they know if I had made previous journeys with this railcard? In a scenario where someone buys tickets for another passenger (for example a disabled younger sibling) using their own card/trainline account and has added a railcard because the passenger who will be using the ticket actually holds a valid railcard, what would happen? Surely they cannot proved that I was the one travelling solely because my card/ trainline account was used?

 

[Narrowgauge725]

It is now May 2024 so 17 months of travelling with an expired card? You could have lots of journeys that were fraudulent.

 

[John R]

It is now May 2024 so 17 months of travelling with an expired card? You could have lots of journeys that were fraudulent.

In the very first post the OP estimates the potential number of journeys involved, so I think is well aware of that aspect of the case.

 

[30907]

Hello, also I haven’t used the railcard on many other journeys. Additionally, how would they know if I had as physical tickets are not linked to a passenger by name and neither are the tickets on train line. How would they know if I had made previous journeys with this railcard? In a scenario where someone buys tickets for another passenger (for example a disabled younger sibling) using their own card/trainline account and has added a railcard because the passenger who will be using the ticket actually holds a valid railcard, what would happen? Surely they cannot proved that I was the one travelling solely because my card/ trainline account was used?

If the person for whom the ticket was purchased had a valid railcard AND you selected the correct railcard when booking, that would be perfectly in order.

Selecting the wrong railcard can lead to problems, as the T&Cs are not identical - and if that railcard is itself invalid, that compounds the potential offence.

That said, train companies may reference the Fraud Act but rarely seem to use it for relatively low-level offences such as altering tickets.

 

[Hadders]

Hello, also I haven’t used the railcard on many other journeys. Additionally, how would they know if I had as physical tickets are not linked to a passenger by name and neither are the tickets on train line. How would they know if I had made previous journeys with this railcard? In a scenario where someone buys tickets for another passenger (for example a disabled younger sibling) using their own card/trainline account and has added a railcard because the passenger who will be using the ticket actually holds a valid railcard, what would happen? Surely they cannot proved that I was the one travelling solely because my card/ trainline account was used?

If you're offered a settlement it's likely they will want to include all the tickets purchased when your railcard was expired. Paying the settlement means they won't prosecute you.

Alternatively, the train company could decide to prosecute you for the single offence where you were caught, which would mean paying a fine based on your income, surcharge, compensation for the fare avoided plus a contribution towards the train compnany's court costs.

 

[123r234]

If you're offered a settlement it's likely they will want to include all the tickets purchased when your railcard was expired. Paying the settlement means they won't prosecute you.

Alternatively, the train company could decide to prosecute you for the single offence where you were caught, which would mean paying a fine based on your income, surcharge, compensation for the fare avoided plus a contribution towards the train compnany's court costs.

I really want to get it settled out of court, I’ve seen on other threads interacting positively and cooperating can help. I was issued the MG11 only on, staff at station said could be up to 3 weeks for Southeastern to get in contact with me via letter. I wanted to write a letter/ email Southeastern explaining im sorry and keen to settle it out of court- did you have any tips on this please?

 

[Haywain]

I really want to get it settled out of court, I’ve seen on other threads interacting positively and cooperating can help. I was issued the MG11 only on, staff at station said could be up to 3 weeks for Southeastern to get in contact with me via letter. I wanted to write a letter/ email Southeastern explaining im sorry and keen to settle it out of court- did you have any tips on this please?

It is best to wait until you receive a letter from Southeastern.

 

[123r234]

It is best to wait until you receive a letter from Southeastern.

Really? I saw someone here in a similar situation who said they wrote to southeastern the same day of the mg11

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Really? I saw someone here in a similar situation who said they wrote to southeastern the same day of the mg11

Our experience is that waiting until the railway are in touch with you does no harm - and those of us who have worked in the sort of offices that get letters from the public* know that an unsolicited letter without a reference number on is a nuisance to get attached to the right file.

Of course, there may be a couple of reasons to try and get things moving faster:
- to minimise the stress of having to wait. But our experience in similar organisations(* again) is that the time you wait to get the papers all together may mean that this won't be very effective in reducing the time
- you have employed a solicitor. We tend to suggest that for most cases a solicitor isn't necessary: most of the time that's about us trying to save you some money but I do worry a little that sometimes we put ourselves about as being as good as solicitors - which is an argument that I'm not sure we would necessarily win. But I suspect that the railway may take a letter from a solicitor 'seriously' in the sense that it may get prioritised for processing. Against this, using a solicitor is expensive (there's been a case in the last couple of days where it cost £750, on top of the amount of the settlement) so for a lot of people it's sensible to let things take a bit longer and not pay out that much money.

*Not necessarily railway offices!

 

[island]

Really? I saw someone here in a similar situation who said they wrote to southeastern the same day of the mg11

That's essentially skipping the queue.

 

[123r234]

Hi new to this forum, wanted some advice on this situation please:

I was travelling with a 16-25 railcard today to London Victoria from my home station in Kent. The railcard expired in 2022 December and I altered the date to make it 23. I understand this is wrong and accept that, not to excuse but cost of living is tough and as a recent graduate even tougher financially. Unfortunately today a ticket officer scanned the railcard to discover it is expired. I offered to pay the difference for my journey but was issued an MG11 and was told SouthEastern would be in touch in regards to this to potentially prosecute. I was fully cooperative with giving my details and honest with the officer about how frequently I’ve used it. I’ve only used it around 2/3 times maybe 4 maximum this year. And maybe a maximum of 10 last year. Again not to excuse my actions but to give some context, I wasn’t using it every week etc excessively. At times I was using it to travel into university.

How can I resolve this as quickly as possibly without prosecution/ a criminal conviction? How likely are Southeastern to settle it out of court. As its not just general fare evasion, I understand altering the railcard has taken me to the grey area of fraud. I am worried it will result in a criminal conviction and really want to do everything to avoid that. I’m just at the beginning of my postgrad career and do not want a stupid decision based on my current financial hardship to affect my future. What can I do to get them to settle vs prosecute me? I can’t really afford a settlement amount, I’m guessing it will be 1k plus- but I can take out a credit card loan etc and would gladly take that over prosecution.

Please can anyone advise, I would be very grateful.

Hi all, thanks for the newer replies I haven’t been on the forum for a while but am catching up with the posts now. Its been just about a month now and I have not heard anything from SouthEastern by way of a letter- the staff at time of incident advised me it could be up to 3 weeks. Is it just a case of waiting it out even though its been 4 weeks now? My original sentiment still stands and I really would like to get this resolved out of court asap if possible.

 

[MotCO]

When you get the letter from South Eastern (or its agents), it would be helpful if you posted a copy of this forum with personal details (name, address, case no etc) obscured. The letter may ask for your side of the story, but it may also indicate what offence they are considering.

I am also a bit confused about the railcard. It expired in 2022, and you changed it to 2023. But you still used it in 2024 despite it being out of date on the changed date. Is that correct? if so, it will be difficult to argue that you did not know that it had expired.

 

[123r234]

When you get the letter from South Eastern (or its agents), it would be helpful if you posted a copy of this forum with personal details (name, address, case no etc) obscured. The letter may ask for your side of the story, but it may also indicate what offence they are considering.

I am also a bit confused about the railcard. It expired in 2022, and you changed it to 2023. But you still used it in 2024 despite it being out of date on the changed date. Is that correct? if so, it will be difficult to argue that you did not know that it had expired.

Southeastern have finally contacted me- but they said they would have within 3-4 weeks its now 4 months later. I have a few questions, 1) is this still valid given the timeframe? 2) what can I do to avoid persecution eg settling this out of court asap?

Hi new to this forum, wanted some advice on this situation please:

I was travelling with a 16-25 railcard today to London Victoria from my home station in Kent. The railcard expired in 2022 December and I altered the date to make it 23. I understand this is wrong and accept that, not to excuse but cost of living is tough and as a recent graduate even tougher financially. Unfortunately today a ticket officer scanned the railcard to discover it is expired. I offered to pay the difference for my journey but was issued an MG11 and was told SouthEastern would be in touch in regards to this to potentially prosecute. I was fully cooperative with giving my details and honest with the officer about how frequently I’ve used it. I’ve only used it around 2/3 times maybe 4 maximum this year. And maybe a maximum of 10 last year. Again not to excuse my actions but to give some context, I wasn’t using it every week etc excessively. At times I was using it to travel into university.

How can I resolve this as quickly as possibly without prosecution/ a criminal conviction? How likely are Southeastern to settle it out of court. As its not just general fare evasion, I understand altering the railcard has taken me to the grey area of fraud. I am worried it will result in a criminal conviction and really want to do everything to avoid that. I’m just at the beginning of my postgrad career and do not want a stupid decision based on my current financial hardship to affect my future. What can I do to get them to settle vs prosecute me? I can’t really afford a settlement amount, I’m guessing it will be 1k plus- but I can take out a credit card loan etc and would gladly take that over prosecution.

Please can anyone advise, I would be very grateful.

Hi all thanks for all the replies. I have an update:

Southeastern have finally contacted me- but they said they would have within 3-4 weeks its now 4 months later. I have a few questions, 1) is this still valid given the timeframe? 2) what can I do to avoid persecution eg settling this out of court asap?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Southeastern have finally contacted me- but they said they would have within 3-4 weeks its now 4 months later. I have a few questions, 1) is this still valid given the timeframe? 2) what can I do to avoid persecution eg settling this out of court asap?


Hi all thanks for all the replies. I have an update:

Southeastern have finally contacted me- but they said they would have within 3-4 weeks its now 4 months later. I have a few questions, 1) is this still valid given the timeframe? 2) what can I do to avoid persecution eg settling this out of court asap?

1) Practically speaking, the railway have six months to go to court, so they still have until November.
2) You now need to convince the railway that you have learnt your lesson and won’t fare dodge again. That means writing back to them to explain this, politely and briefly. @Hadders has some great suggestions on this: either look through other threads, or they may be along sometime to give you a tailored version of their advice.

It’s probably worth noting that the railway seem only to want to know about the time when they caught you - so while it’s not a good idea to lie (saying ‘this is the first time I have done this’ would be a lie) you don’t have to talk about the previous times you have fare dodged.

 

[Haywain]

2) what can I do to avoid persecution eg settling this out of court asap?

It's prosecution you are looking to avoid. Some might say that you are already being persecuted but I think that would be rather harsh.

 

[Hadders]

I suggest a short, concise reply mentioning the following:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and TfL's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

It might be worth looking at some letters in other threads to see how they should be set out. If you post a draft copy of your reply in thisthread forum members will proof read it for you.

 

[123r234]

1) Practically speaking, the railway have six months to go to court, so they still have until November.
2) You now need to convince the railway that you have learnt your lesson and won’t fare dodge again. That means writing back to them to explain this, politely and briefly. @Hadders has some great suggestions on this: either look through other threads, or they may be along sometime to give you a tailored version of their advice.

It’s probably worth noting that the railway seem only to want to know about the time when they caught you - so while it’s not a good idea to lie (saying ‘this is the first time I have done this’ would be a lie) you don’t have to talk about the previous times you have fare dodged.

Hello

Here is a draft of a reply considering the advice on the thread- would greatly appreciate any suggestions and feedback :


Dear [],

I am writing in response to your letter regarding the incident on 06 May in which I was travelling with an invalid 16-25 railcard. I would like to express my sincerest apologies for the incident. I fully understand the seriousness of my actions and deeply regret any inconvenience this has caused Southeastern.

This situation has served as a strong reminder of the importance of complying with the regulations, and I can assure you that I will be more diligent in the future to ensure this does not happen again.

I am eager to resolve the matter without the need for court action and would be more than willing to pay the outstanding fare as well as Southeastern’s administrative costs in handling the case.

Thank you for your time and consideration, and I look forward to your guidance on how to bring this matter to a close.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hello

Here is a draft of a reply considering the advice on the thread- would greatly appreciate any suggestions and feedback :


Dear [],

I am writing in response to your letter regarding the incident on 06 May in which I was travelling with an invalid 16-25 railcard. I would like to express my sincerest apologies for the incident. I fully understand the seriousness of my actions and deeply regret any inconvenience this has caused Southeastern.

This situation has served as a strong reminder of the importance of complying with the regulations, and I can assure you that I will be more diligent in the future to ensure this does not happen again.

I am eager to resolve the matter without the need for court action and would be more than willing to pay the outstanding fare as well as Southeastern’s administrative costs in handling the case.

Thank you for your time and consideration, and I look forward to your guidance on how to bring this matter to a close.

It's always possible to fine-tune these things, but I think that's fine.

 

[Haywain]

I am eager to resolve the matter without the need for court action and would be more than willing to pay the outstanding fare as well as Southeastern’s administrative costs in handling the case.

Just tweak this to make it a request, rather than a statement. Perhaps instead of “I am eager”, say “I would appreciate the opportunity”, or something similar.

 

[Wolfie]

Hello

Here is a draft of a reply considering the advice on the thread- would greatly appreciate any suggestions and feedback :


Dear [],

I am writing in response to your letter regarding the incident on 06 May in which I was travelling with an invalid 16-25 railcard. I would like to express my sincerest apologies for the incident. I fully understand the seriousness of my actions and deeply regret any inconvenience this has caused Southeastern.

This situation has served as a strong reminder of the importance of complying with the regulations, and I can assure you that I will be more diligent in the future to ensure this does not happen again.

I am eager to resolve the matter without the need for court action and would be more than willing to pay the outstanding fare as well as Southeastern’s administrative costs in handling the case.

Thank you for your time and consideration, and I look forward to your guidance on how to bring this matter to a close.

Are you still eligible for the Railcard and, if so, will you likely use the railway often enough to make use of it. If so get a new one and tell them that you have.

 

[123r234]

Hi all , again thank you for all the suggestions

Here is a (hopefully) final draft , again would really appreciate any feedback on this


Dear [],

I am writing in response to your letter regarding the incident on 06 May in which I was travelling with an invalid 16-25 railcard. I would like to express my sincerest apologies for the incident. I fully understand the seriousness of my actions and deeply regret the inconvenience this has caused Southeastern. This situation has served as a strong reminder of the importance of complying with the regulations. Since then, I have purchased a brand new 16-25 Railcard to ensure this never happens again.

I would appreciate the opportunity to resolve the matter without the need for court action. I would be more than willing to pay the outstanding fare as well as Southeastern’s administrative costs in handling the case. Once again, I would like to apologize for my actions and any inconvenience caused.

Thank you for your time and consideration, and I look forward to your guidance on how to bring this matter to a close.


Also, in regards to sending this as a reply- shall I attach it with my original letter? And shall I email it too?

 

[Hadders]

I think the letter is fine. You can return it with the letter you were sent, simply write 'see attached letter' where it asks for your comments. Make sure the letter has the case reference number and your name and address on it in case it gets separated from the letter they sent you. Keep a copy of both letters just in case you need them in future.

There's no need to email it as well as posting it but you can do both if you want to.

 

[123r234]

Hello all, i sent my letter back on Monday with special delivery to ensure it reaches the office promptly. Slightly confused i have received effectively the same letter today? (My og letter was dated 11th September this one is dated 24th) Do i have to also reply to this letter. Obviously want to ensure i am engaging with the process as positively and promptly as possible but this has confused me. I would appreciate any advice on how to proceed! Thank you