Southeastern to become "the first regional integrated railway"?

[eldomtom2]

I noticed this in the Guardian's recent article about GBR. Most of the discussion about the article has been about what it says about SWR and the GBR-vinyled 701, but this seems like a much more major step towards GBR.

Will Labour’s shake-up really fix Great Britain’s ailing railways?

As South Western becomes the latest operator to be renationalised, there are questions about whether the changes will lead to lower fares

www.theguardian.com

The first steps are yet to be officially announced but Southeastern – nationalised after an accounting scandal in 2021 – is expected next month to become the first regional integrated railway, with track and train becoming the ultimate responsibility of a single managing director in Kent.

 

[izvor]

Interesting - Southeastern might be a good company for a trial (if that's what it is) as it is relatively self-contained. Is this proposal widely known about in the industry?

 

[brad465]

Interesting - Southeastern might be a good company for a trial (if that's what it is) as it is relatively self-contained. Is this proposal widely known about in the industry?

c2c would surely be the easier as that's both self-contained and smaller. As it happens that's up for nationalisation soon, so presumably if the trial with SE is working it could be quickly expanded to c2c.

 

[A S Leib]

c2c would surely be the easier as that's both self-contained and smaller. As it happens that's up for nationalisation soon, so presumably if the trial with SE is working it could be quickly expanded to c2c.

How does it currently work for Merseyrail and London Overground / Elizabeth line (well, except Stratford – Shenfield, Paddington – Heathrow / Reading, the southern East London line and around Euston and Liverpool Street high level)?

 

[Bald Rick]

I noticed this in the Guardian's recent article about GBR. Most of the discussion about the article has been about what it says about SWR and the GBR-vinyled 701, but this seems like a much more major step towards GBR.

Will Labour’s shake-up really fix Great Britain’s ailing railways?

As South Western becomes the latest operator to be renationalised, there are questions about whether the changes will lead to lower fares

www.theguardian.com

This was announced some time ago. Steve White will be the MD.

Same for South Western - Lawrence Bowman.

Both take charge of the respective combined TOC + infrastructure organisations in the next few weeks.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

How does it currently work for Merseyrail and London Overground / Elizabeth line (well, except Stratford – Shenfield, Paddington – Heathrow / Reading, the southern East London line and around Euston and Liverpool Street high level)?

As you correctly identify, the parts of Crossrail not on legacy mainlines is the "Central Operating Section" and is, I believe, owned by RfIL (Rail for London (Infrastructure) limited) which is a subsidiary company of TfL responsible for the operation and maintenance of the Crossrail core infrastructure. There's another subsidiary of TfL called Rail for London Ltd which oversees the concessions (Elizabeth Line and London Overground) and their tendering out to private companies to operate them. For Elizabeth Line, that's currently MTR EL - but will soon be transferred over to GTS Rail Operations. For London Overground it's currently Arriva Rail London, before 2016 it was LOROL. These companies are subsidiaries specifically conjured up to fulfil specific concessions and then cease to exist when those contracts end - this is the case even if they are fully owned by a single company (most are joint ventures though).

From a technical standpoint, when trains cross into the Pudding Mill Lane boundary they specifically exit Network Rail infrastructure and signalling/electrical control/route control changes from Liverpool Street IECC/Romford ECR/NwR Anglia to Crossrail Route Control Centre (integrates signalling/electrical control/traffic control at one desk). At Westbourne Park it transfers to Thames Valley Integrated Control Centre/Didcot ECR/Western Region which actually might be in the same building. Of course all these parties have had deeply integrated operational procedures since day one - for instance, the main source of traction power the Crossrail core is from a Network Rail owned feeder station at Pudding Mill Lane; Network Rail sell RfIL 25kV traction power from it.

I think the East London Line is a bit different, as far as I can tell it's owned directly by Rail for London (notice not Rail for London (infrastructure) which has only existed since Crossrail) but is operated by Network Rail. It's signalled by a mysterious East London Line Signalling Control Centre (where is this!?) with electrical control from Lewisham ECR despite being under Anglia region of Network Rail - I guess this is an arrangement not too dissimilar from HS1? Interestingly, the East London Line sections that are owned by RfL (Dalston West Curve to between Silewood Junction and Old Kent Road Junction) are redacted in the public sectional appendix.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think the East London Line is a bit different, as far as I can tell it's owned directly by Rail for London (notice not Rail for London (infrastructure) which has only existed since Crossrail) but is operated by Network Rail. It's signalled by a mysterious East London Line Signalling Control Centre (where is this!?) with electrical control from Lewisham ECR despite being under Anglia region of Network Rail - I guess this is an arrangement not too dissimilar from HS1? Interestingly, the East London Line sections that are owned by RfL (Dalston West Curve to between Silewood Junction and Old Kent Road Junction) are redacted in the public sectional appendix.

East London Line is signalled by NR under contract to TfL, from a building in New Cross Gate depot.

From a technical standpoint, when trains cross into the Pudding Mill Lane boundary they specifically exit Network Rail infrastructure and signalling/electrical control/route control changes from Liverpool Street IECC/Romford ECR/NwR Anglia to Crossrail Route Control Centre (integrates signalling/electrical control/traffic control at one desk). At Westbourne Park it transfers to Thames Valley Integrated Control Centre/Didcot ECR/Western Region which actually might be in the same building.

the Crossrail control centre is in Romford ROC.

 

[zwk500]

It's signalled by a mysterious East London Line Signalling Control Centre (where is this!?) with electrical control from Lewisham ECR despite being under Anglia region of Network Rail - I guess this is an arrangement not too dissimilar from HS1? Interestingly, the East London Line sections that are owned by RfL (Dalston West Curve to between Silewood Junction and Old Kent Road Junction) are redacted in the public sectional appendix.

The East London Line has transferred to the Sussex Route, SO511 Highbury & Islington to New Cross Gate. It's very much visible in the public Sectional Appendix though (pp484 for SO511-001). It was Anglia region for historic reasons but does make far more sense as part of Southern/Sussex.

 

[WAB]

A number of senior people now wear both TOC and NR lanyards in various parts of the country.

 

[swt_passenger]

c2c would surely be the easier as that's both self-contained and smaller. As it happens that's up for nationalisation soon, so presumably if the trial with SE is working it could be quickly expanded to c2c.

But can c2c really be expected to remain a separate organisation under GBR? Just about every forum idea, from NSE recreation to NR routes to regional sectorisation - none of them point to c2c being stand alone…

 

[Class15]

c2c would surely be the easier as that's both self-contained

Apart from running into Liverpool Street on Crossrail tracks and the dozens of freight trains out of London Gateway per day!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Apart from running into Liverpool Street on Crossrail tracks and the dozens of freight trains out of London Gateway per day!

You and your freight!

They run into Liverpool Street on weekends only. It would be extremely pedantic to consider c2c anything other than self-contained.

 

[yorksrob]

South Eastern is a good choice as a comparatively contained microcosm of the wider railway.

It has a web of different main lines, suburban services and London stations. It even has high speed trains.

I remember reading somewhere that the SE division runs more trains than Switzerland ! (Can't remember where though - sorry).

 

[Class15]

You and your freight!

It’s quite a big thing for C2C particularly with the recent increase in freight levels out of London Gateway.

I would say that passenger traffic should always take priority over freight, but unfortunately that’s not how it works.

They run into Liverpool Street on weekends only. It would be extremely pedantic to consider c2c anything other than self-contained.

Okay - and what about London Overground at Barking?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Okay - and what about London Overground at Barking?

As I said, extremely pedantic. What could possibly cause London Overground services to delay c2c?

 

[Class15]

As I said, extremely pedantic. What could possibly cause London Overground services to delay c2c?

Say a freight at Gospel Oak turns up a few minutes late onto the GOBLIN (Gospel Oak to Barking line). The GOBLIN train then is a few minutes late into Barking Platform 7, meaning that the C2C train behind it gets delayed.

A line like this might seem self-contained, but there can be ripple (no pun intended!) delays onto the C2C traffic.

 

[Bald Rick]

Apart from running into Liverpool Street on Crossrail tracks and the dozens of freight trains out of London Gateway per day!

They don’t run on any Crossrail tracks.

They do run on the ‘Electric’ Lines, which they share with the Elizabeth Line for about 2 miles.

I remember reading somewhere that the SE division runs more trains than Switzerland ! (Can't remember where though - sorry).

A railway myth. Albeit one that gained some traction about 15 years ago.

Southeastern run just short of 1,800 trains per day. If you include the Thameslink, Southern, Overground and Freight services that stray onto ‘Southeastern’ metals it gets to about 3,000.

SBB run nearly 8,000 trains a day. Then there’s BLS and the myriad other railways in the country.


I was at an internal ‘all hands’ event where the then Route MD of Kent said that ‘we run about the same number of trains as Switzerland’; I winced a little, as I felt it could not be correct (albeit I didn’t know at the time).

Unfortunately someone in the audience stuck his hand up at questions and said [NASAL VOICE] “you said that Kent runs more trains than Switzerland, just so you know the Swiss run…(etc.)” /[NASAL VOICE].

Acute embarrassment all round. That MD retired over a decade ago and this event was a long time before then.

 

[yorksrob]

They don’t run on any Crossrail tracks.

They do run on the ‘Electric’ Lines, which they share with the Elizabeth Line for about 2 miles.




A railway myth. Albeit one that gained some traction about 15 years ago.

Southeastern run just short of 1,800 trains per day. If you include the Thameslink, Southern, Overground and Freight services that stray onto ‘Southeastern’ metals it gets to about 3,000.

SBB run nearly 8,000 trains a day. Then there’s BLS and the myriad other railways in the country.


I was at an internal ‘all hands’ event where the then Route MD of Kent said that ‘we run about the same number of trains as Switzerland’; I winced a little, as I felt it could not be correct (albeit I didn’t know at the time).

Unfortunately someone in the audience stuck his hand up at questions and said [NASAL VOICE] “you said that Kent runs more trains than Switzerland, just so you know the Swiss run…(etc.)”
/[NASAL VOICE].

Acute embarrassment all round. That MD retired over a decade ago and this event was a long time before then.

Ah that's interesting. Thanks for pointing it out - I can lay it to rest.

I wouldn't be surprised if NSE (or its successors) run more than 8000 trains a day though. Might be more realistic

 

[Bald Rick]

Ah that's interesting. Thanks for pointing it out - I can lay it to rest.

I wouldn't be surprised if NSE (or its successors) run more than 8000 trains a day though. Might be more realistic

Yes they do, by a long way!

It’s clouded a bit as GA, GWR and WMT all run ex NSE services but also Long distance and regional services.

But just GTR, SWR, Southeastern, London Overground and the Elizabeth Line run nearly 10,000 trains a day between them (weekdays). They also carry 2/3rds of all passengers on the whole network.

 

[Class15]

But just GTR, SWR, Southeastern, London Overground and the Elizabeth Line run nearly 10,000 trains a day between them (weekdays). They also carry 2/3rds of all passengers on the whole network.

That is an incredible statistic, and it does show very well where the most used lines are. It therefore slightly puzzles me that so much money goes into projects like the Transpennine upgrade when 67% of passengers use commuter railways in the Southeast!

 

[A S Leib]

It therefore slightly puzzles me that so much money goes into projects like the Transpennine upgrade when 67% of passengers use commuter railways in the Southeast!

Because if passenger numbers in London are so much higher than in northern England, even factoring in things like urban population differences, it suggests that the number of northern passengers could be a lot higher with better infrastructure?

 

[JamesT]

Because if passenger numbers in London are so much higher than in northern England, even factoring in things like urban population differences, it suggests that the number of northern passengers could be a lot higher with better infrastructure?

But that urban population is the key. Public transport works when you have a dense enough population to make use of it. https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/...pulation-density/persons-per-square-kilometre is a useful illustration of the differences in density across England. (Though it would be better if it had more gradation down the bottom, Eden at 26 people/km2 is the same colour as Hart which is 462 people/km2). A third of the UK's population lives in London and the Southeast.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

It therefore slightly puzzles me that so much money goes into projects like the Transpennine upgrade when 67% of passengers use commuter railways in the Southeast!

Isn't this view another form of survivorship bias? The vast majority of major rail projects over the last 40 years have been in London or the home counties, ergo they have strong rail ridership. You wouldn't justify the need for a bridge based on the number of people swimming across the river. If you go back to the 1980s a lot of London's rail infrastructure was in a poor shape and of little use to potential riders - especially things like the North London Line at that time. Over the years long running large projects like Network Southeast itself, the (entire) DLR, Croydon Tramlink, Jubilee Line extension, Heathrow Express, London Overground, Oystercard, Thameslink Programme, 4LM, and of course Crossrail - are all massive and very expensive projects that have progressively turned London & SE into the highly successful rail system it is today.

 

[yorksrob]

But that urban population is the key. Public transport works when you have a dense enough population to make use of it. https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/...pulation-density/persons-per-square-kilometre is a useful illustration of the differences in density across England. (Though it would be better if it had more gradation down the bottom, Eden at 26 people/km2 is the same colour as Hart which is 462 people/km2). A third of the UK's population lives in London and the Southeast.

The trans Pennine belt across England already has a fairly dense distribution of population, which is why those routes can sustain multiple trains an hour, often with four to six carriages.

 

[zwk500]

The trans Pennine belt across England already has a fairly dense distribution of population, which is why those routes can sustain multiple trains an hour, often with four to six carriages.

Agreed, the whole area from Chester/Liverpool/Preston through Manchester to the South Yorks and West Yorks urban areas and onto both sides of the humber have dense populations, multi-centric economies and a lot of movement between the towns. It's somewhere the rail upgrades are long overdue (especially electrification). And then there's connections to Wearside and the North East ...

 

[GraphitProjekt]

I've heard it said that the urban North has a population/population density roughly equivalent to that of the Netherlands

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed, the whole area from Chester/Liverpool/Preston through Manchester to the South Yorks and West Yorks urban areas and onto both sides of the humber have dense populations, multi-centric economies and a lot of movement between the towns. It's somewhere the rail upgrades are long overdue (especially electrification). And then there's connections to Wearside and the North East ...

Yes, electrification should have happened decades ago IMO.

Still, at least its happening now.

 

[cle]

TPE services should be far longer, to begin with. Billion pound capacity projects seem extraneous to me when services are 3-6 car, and 3-5tph. That frequency is fine for the core (Manchester-Leeds, arguably York) but the stock is wrong. And wires are a no brainer given those three main cities and stations are wired themselves.

I don’t know that the random passing loops and platforms around Mirfield etc would make as much difference as longer stock for the fasts (and some slows)

But services on the BML etc are already 12 cars, so what’s next?

 

[zwk500]

TPE services should be far longer, to begin with. Billion pound capacity projects seem extraneous to me when services are 3-6 car, and 3-5tph. That frequency is fine for the core (Manchester-Leeds, arguably York) but the stock is wrong. And wires are a no brainer given those three main cities and stations are wired themselves.

I don’t know that the random passing loops and platforms around Mirfield etc would make as much difference as longer stock for the fasts (and some slows)

TPE is also about freight, of which there is plenty running, hence the capacity works.

But we're getting away from the topic

 

[A S Leib]

I've heard it said that the urban North has a population/population density roughly equivalent to that of the Netherlands

Unless I've made a mistake, Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Lancashire and South and West Yorkshire collectively have ~9.7 mn people and 8575 km² giving a population density of 1128/km² compared to 520/km² for the Netherlands (and that's including areas like Lancaster and Ribble Valley whilst excluding Halton and Warrington). The Randstad has an urban density of 1135/km².

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2025 ==

TPE services should be far longer, to begin with. Billion pound capacity projects seem extraneous to me when services are 3-6 car, and 3-5tph.

How many relevant stations don't have sufficient platforms for 9-10 carriage services? railwaydata.co.uk/stations/overview/?TLC=HUD suggests that there aren't currently any platforms of at least 200 metres, for example (but with at least some extended to that length under current plans).