Southeastern train passengers stuck for 3 hours as train fails yards from Victoria

[Dieseldriver]

I suppose if the brakes were stuck "on" (as part of the fail-safe mechanism), guessing it would be difficult to get a spare 465 out the shed and push (or drag) the errant unit...would that be so?

But odd re the gapping issue - how many years have modern 4-car units been in and out of the station?

The gapping isn't really odd. If you think about it, there are probably hundreds of unknown potential gapping locations that haven't yet caused an issue out of pure luck. For example, a spurious brake application occurs which gaps the unit or even a unit with a fault which temporarily affects traction.

 

[bramling]

The gapping isn't really odd. If you think about it, there are probably hundreds of unknown potential gapping locations that haven't yet caused an issue out of pure luck. For example, a spurious brake application occurs which gaps the unit or even a unit with a fault which temporarily affects traction.

Absolutely, and add to that different driving techniques, and the possibility of shoes being missing or high, and the possibility of the juice rails being misaligned. Underground trains gap occasionally, and they tend to have 8 shoes on each side (albeit not linked by a through bus line).

As regards moving a unit with brakes stuck on, there are only really two options - find a way of releasing them, or isolating them. In the first case this might be possible through defect handling, eg isolating one or more circuits, or cutting out equipment, or perhaps with an assisting train if the problem is lack of air. However if all this fails and brakes need to be isolated then one needs to consider how the now unbraked part of the train will be protected against a runaway should a coupling fail. One also needs to consider things like having a safe system for communication if the train isn’t able to be braked from the leading end. Apart from specific cases where brakes are designed to be “driven through” (normally parking brakes) it’s not feasible to push a train stuck with its brakes hard on - in any case the assisting train in many cases wouldn’t have the power to do it. In any recovery scenario one can probably guarantee the train will throw in a curved ball or two. In essence, it’s rarely simple, and thus rarely quick...

 

[bramling]

LU of course don't have bus bars, so there is a shoe per power bogie out of necessity. Typically on a mainline EMU, with a few exceptions, all the shoes are connected together so provided one is on the juice all the motors will work.

Not quite a shoe for each motor bogie. The two shoes on each side of a car feed the car as a whole. Thus each motor car will be fully functional with any one +ve and any one -ve shoe on current. However there’s no through 630vDC cables running through the train.

As an aside, this isn’t to say that such cables don’t run from one car to another - there are numerous cases where 630vDC equipment is mounted on one car but fed from another - the obvious example being compressors. On the Jubilee and Northern there’s the interesting but logical setup that the compressors (car 2) and auxiliary converters (car 3) are both fed from car 1, even though car 3 has its own set of shoes. Watch people plug gap leads into car 3 and wonder why the brakes won’t come off!

 

[philthetube]

LU of course don't have bus bars, so there is a shoe per power bogie out of necessity. Typically on a mainline EMU, with a few exceptions, all the shoes are connected together so provided one is on the juice all the motors will work.

This does not prevent more shoes though, or receptacle boxes to enable jump leads to be plugged into the train.

 

[LAX54]

Fair point, but passengers were pulling the door controls because THEY WEREN'T KEPT INFORMED. How difficult would it have been for the driver to leave the inner sanctum of their cab and walk down the train telling passengers what was going on. Most passengers are reasonable people, but keep them (literally) in the dark and they take matters into their own hands. It happened at Lewisham and at Dock Junction on Thameslink, simply because the railway was so busy doing "railway things" the people in charge forgot to keep their customers informed.

It's not the 1940's anymore. Passengers aren't content to defer to authority in the form of some spotty oik wearing a fluorescent orange vest. They demand (and deserve) to be told why they're not getting home, quickly and with updates at regular intervals. It's how things work in the 21st Century, but unfortunately the railways are struggling to keep up.

If the first egress was operated after 29 mins or so, then it was a done job after that !, As others have said Emergency Isolation of the lines, blocks to other trains etc, and I have no doubt any info given would have been ignored, and whilst it's not the 1940's, the rules still apply, only idiots would clamber out of a train in such a busy area ! agreed more info might be nice, but the Driver I have no doubt is busy doing other things at the time ! or is it also partly a symptom of DOO ? (but then most of the public seem happy with DOO!)

 

[Robertj21a]

If the first egress was operated after 29 mins or so, then it was a done job after that !, As others have said Emergency Isolation of the lines, blocks to other trains etc, and I have no doubt any info given would have been ignored, and whilst it's not the 1940's, the rules still apply, only idiots would clamber out of a train in such a busy area ! agreed more info might be nice, but the Driver I have no doubt is busy doing other things at the time ! or is it also partly a symptom of DOO ? (but then most of the public seem happy with DOO!)

Why can't the train PA system be accessed remotely by someone who can find the time to explain what is going on, or at least provide reassurance that various matters are in hand ?. I really can't understand why this isn't already a routine practice.

 

[edwin_m]

Why can't the train PA system be accessed remotely by someone who can find the time to explain what is going on, or at least provide reassurance that various matters are in hand ?. I really can't understand why this isn't already a routine practice.

We've established further back up the thread that this is possible (battery charge permitting) but not actually done.

I would guess, like the driver, the signalling/control staff are also fairly tied up with trying to resolve the incident. Perhaps worthwhile to look into designating a "passenger communications" role to do this in the even of an incident? However this would be another person in the control, probably with not much to do when things are running smoothly, so would obviously cost money...

 

[Dieseldriver]

We've established further back up the thread that this is possible (battery charge permitting) but not actually done.

I would guess, like the driver, the signalling/control staff are also fairly tied up with trying to resolve the incident. Perhaps worthwhile to look into designating a "passenger communications" role to do this in the even of an incident? However this would be another person in the control, probably with not much to do when things are running smoothly, so would obviously cost money...

To be honest if it costs money then the TOC should think themselves lucky that it costs less than a Guard on each train making announcements and assisting the Driver while they try and rectify the fault.
There are more and more high profile serious incidents of this nature involving DOO trains yet there appears to be no effort to try and improve things.
That being the case, when an egressing passenger gets mown down by a train or electrocuted on the third rail in the event of a train failure, I would hope charges of corporate manslaughter are brought against the TOC in question.

 

[Robertj21a]

We've established further back up the thread that this is possible (battery charge permitting) but not actually done.

I would guess, like the driver, the signalling/control staff are also fairly tied up with trying to resolve the incident. Perhaps worthwhile to look into designating a "passenger communications" role to do this in the even of an incident? However this would be another person in the control, probably with not much to do when things are running smoothly, so would obviously cost money...

Yes, that's what I said above. My assumption is that there is at least one person in a control room (somewhere) who can access the train's PA system - it doesn't need to be anybody who is already struggling to resolve the situation, just somebody who has all the facts (something more akin to a PR/media bod perhaps ?).

I still don't understand why this isn't already routine.......

 

[ScotGG]

What some may not be aware of is that Networker PAs are extremely poor and often inaudible even if someone there to offer advice over them. That's before power goes down and they can't be used, which seems to be around an hour. The train would be DOO too in this instance.

 

[Robertj21a]

What some may not be aware of is that Networker PAs are extremely poor and often inaudible even if someone there to offer advice over them. That's before power goes down and they can't be used, which seems to be around an hour. The train would be DOO too in this instance.

Perhaps someone should be tasked with sorting the problems out !

 

[LAX54]

Yes, that's what I said above. My assumption is that there is at least one person in a control room (somewhere) who can access the train's PA system - it doesn't need to be anybody who is already struggling to resolve the situation, just somebody who has all the facts (something more akin to a PR/media bod perhaps ?).

I still don't understand why this isn't already routine.......

Do Control have direct access to the GSM-R PA facility ? not sure, and as for the Signalling Centre, both the Signaller dealing with the incident at the Shift Manager will be well busy with other things.

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes, that's what I said above. My assumption is that there is at least one person in a control room (somewhere) who can access the train's PA system - it doesn't need to be anybody who is already struggling to resolve the situation, just somebody who has all the facts (something more akin to a PR/media bod perhaps ?).

I still don't understand why this isn't already routine.......

Perhaps because Network Rail doesn't have spare bodies hanging around to do this. Everyone in the Centre is going to be busy, either sorting out the problem or signalling other lines.

 

[bramling]

Yes, that's what I said above. My assumption is that there is at least one person in a control room (somewhere) who can access the train's PA system - it doesn't need to be anybody who is already struggling to resolve the situation, just somebody who has all the facts (something more akin to a PR/media bod perhaps ?).

I still don't understand why this isn't already routine.......

Sometimes can't win. London Underground, for example, have an "information" role in their control rooms. They can't and don't make PAs directly to trains, however they do disseminate information to places like stations, and are there precisely for the purpose of disseminating information during disruptions.

However, this means they will spend quite a bit of time with little immediate workload when there isn't anything going on - cue criticism that they're a waste of money...

I'd suggest that the bigger issue on the mainline is that resources are too thinly stretched across the board. One can understand in rural areas that it isn't going to be feasible to have an incident manager who can just appear at short notice in the middle of nowhere (although to be fair in this case there will almost always be a guard on the train), however there's less excuse in urban DOO areas, let alone south London! In all the recent cases a couple of suitably trained station staff able to walk to the train, make contact with the driver, and deal with the passengers would have made a difference - the only issue perhaps being if the trains were too heavily crowded for staff to get through, but even then there's ways and means.

 

[Taunton]

As there were likely conductor rails just out of reach, either behind or on an adjacent track, can a good jump lead not be provided, either in the cab or in lineside boxes at known trouble points like this one (where it seems a continuing problem). Given that crews are trained to use short-circuiting bars, it is surely not beyond the engineers' wits to come up with something which is both practical and safe to use.

 

[Dieseldriver]

On LUL gap jumper leads are kept in locked cabinets at strategic locations across the network.

 

[bramling]

As there were likely conductor rails just out of reach, either behind or on an adjacent track, can a good jump lead not be provided, either in the cab or in lineside boxes at known trouble points like this one (where it seems a continuing problem). Given that crews are trained to use short-circuiting bars, it is surely not beyond the engineers' wits to come up with something which is both practical and safe to use.

The obvious stumbling block is that leads require two people to use, partly due to the weight when carrying them.

It’s just about feasible for one person to carry out the process from start to finish, especially with the latest magnetic version - in fact preferable if the alternative is working with people who don’t know what they’re doing - but I don’t think that would stand any chance of getting approved as an official safe system of work.

There’s a lot to deal with, not least sorting out the traction current and protection arrangements - so whilst all that’s going on the announcements certainly won’t be being made!

So in essence we’re back to the issue that it still requires a competent trained person to come out to the stricken train.