Southern Class 455 Withdrawal

[Surreytraveller]

Rare to see anything else on Beckenhams still.

One of the three diagrams on a Saturday is 377s

 

[bluegoblin7]

Any withdrawn unit will be taken out of service one day and be withdrawn the next. It hasn't been unknown in the past for units to go out of service one day and be at the scrapyard within a matter of days.

When lul were running down the C stock fleet it wasn't unknown for trains to go for scrap straight from service!

 

[physics34]

Fancy getting some 455s Saturday, are they still regularly used on the Beckenham jn services? What sort of impact will these hove and Horsham stored units have ?

Youll have no shortage of 455s on a Saturday until may

 

[Southern Dvr]

The 455s aren’t being used as intensively now as before Covid. The current E Croydon-Bridge service was a Coulsdon Town service, there were Victoria-Sutton services which no longer operate outside the peaks and a few other workings that used 455s. Since covid the 455s haven’t been worked as intensively and losing the 5 units we’ve lost today shouldn’t have a major impact. Also, they’re warm stored, probably cut in and if something took another unit or two out the game prematurely these could be used.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The 455s aren’t being used as intensively now as before Covid. The current E Croydon-Bridge service was a Coulsdon Town service, there were Victoria-Sutton services which no longer operate outside the peaks and a few other workings that used 455s. Since covid the 455s haven’t been worked as intensively and losing the 5 units we’ve lost today shouldn’t have a major impact. Also, they’re warm stored, probably cut in and if something took another unit or two out the game prematurely these could be used.

Indeed. They were only moved as they were in the way in Selhurst Depot

 

[IKB]

377 puts out 1,600hp via 3 (on a 4 car) MCMs..

455 puts out 860hp via 1 Motor Coach ...

377's deffo get off the mark faster!

Intersting stats. I can only speak from the perspective of having driven them, but I've always found a 455 quicker off the mark up to 35-40mph, after that the acceleration flattens out and 377 wins. That's on the flat, on a rising gradient forget it. And assuming you don't experience a 3rd rail gap.

 

[physics34]

Intersting stats. I can only speak from the perspective of having driven them, but I've always found a 455 quicker off the mark up to 35-40mph, after that the acceleration flattens out and 377 wins. That's on the flat, on a rising gradient forget it. And assuming you don't experience a 3rd rail gap.

I assume 377s are restricted to avoid wheelslip

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There is a huge reduction in demand and a need to reduce costs. The previous level of service cannot be maintained at an acceptable cost to the taxpayer so some units are surplus to requirements. The oldest units drop out the bottom leaving a simplified fleet. A simplified and leaner fleet carries less cost to the operation.

Not sure there will be a huge reduction in demand now that restrictions lifted demand will recover although the high peak is consigned to history so less need for peak hour extras. Many of the 455 routes have been overcapacity for years but TOCs were obliged to operate them but now DofT is in charge and needs to make savings its going for easy targets by getting rid of any stock that is an easy to terminate lease which is sensible and curtailing ferquencies as a result. However, they ought to mothball at least half the fleet so they have something in reserve just in case demands comes back more than they forecast. ie fuel prices are going to spike up a lot more may result in increased ridership.

 

[43096]

However, they ought to mothball at least half the fleet so they have something in reserve just in case demands comes back more than they forecast. ie fuel prices are going to spike up a lot more may result in increased ridership.

Who pays for that mothballing? Unless there is a reasonable prospect of re-use, the ROSCO won't, particularly on near 40-year-old stock.

 

[D365]

I assume 377s are restricted to avoid wheelslip

Why would that be necessary when they have wheelslip protection?

The restriction is to limit power draw.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Who pays for that mothballing? Unless there is a reasonable prospect of re-use, the ROSCO won't, particularly on near 40-year-old stock.

DofT pays for it as it will be far cheaper than having to find additional stock. In the grand scheme of things this is a modest cost and lets be realistic it takes time to process scrapped trains so get rid of the top half closest to an exam and keep the other half. If ridership plays out as they've forecast then let the other half go in 12mths.

 

[43096]

DofT pays for it as it will be far cheaper than having to find additional stock. In the grand scheme of things this is a modest cost and lets be realistic it takes time to process scrapped trains so get rid of the top half closest to an exam and keep the other half. If ridership plays out as they've forecast then let the other half go in 12mths.

When the objective is to save cost, what do you think the chances of that are? It doesn't strike me as a good use of taxpayers money.

 

[physics34]

Why would that be necessary when they have wheelslip protection?

The restriction is to limit power draw.

Which is set on '2' on all units

 

[JonathanH]

If ridership plays out as they've forecast then let the other half go in 12mths.

Putting old trains in a siding for 12 months is not a good idea if you are hoping to use them again.

Besides, the 379s (and the speculated cascade) are the potential fleet to fill the gap if demand recovers.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

DofT pays for it as it will be far cheaper than having to find additional stock.

But not having the stock at all is even cheaper.

 

[Mikey C]

Would 5 car trains work on Southern Metro routes, or even with a carriage removed (using the spare carriages to lengthen a small number of 8 car 700s?

It still would seem more obvious to me to have moved the 707s to Southern rather than Southeastern - if fewer units are needed now, then there's slack to actually refurbish the Networkers and 376s properly, and then replace them properly in a few years when the various rail factories in the UK are running low on orders

I've said it before, but it feels inconsistent to have high density Metro stock like the 701s, 707s and 376s on SWR and SE routes, and indeed the Thameslink 700s, but have 377s with low standing space on the Southern routes. Southern losing the 455s and gaining the loaned 377s back from SE is a very different fleet shift from SE gaining the 707s and losing a few Networkers and 377s.

And for that matter, will SWR really need all the high capacity 701s, assuming they ever arrive?

 

[JonathanH]

And for that matter, will SWR really need all the high capacity 701s, assuming they ever arrive?

Arguably not. I wonder if some might find their way to Southeastern to displace old stock there.

 

[brad465]

Arguably not. I wonder if some might find their way to Southeastern to displace old stock there.

Southeastern have enough micro fleets as it is, and I doubt enough 701s could go to Southeastern to eliminate all the remaining Networkers. Then there's the issue of Southeastern being more a 8/12 car railway than a 10 car one.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Putting old trains in a siding for 12 months is not a good idea if you are hoping to use them again.

Besides, the 379s (and the speculated cascade) are the potential fleet to fill the gap if demand recovers.

Thats a fair point although they might be wise shifting the 379's out of the salt laden environment of Harwich.

 

[hwl]

Thats a fair point although they might be wise shifting the 379's out of the salt laden environment of Harwich.

That needs siding space elsewhere though! Hence GTR starting off releasing some by getting rid of the 455s

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Would 5 car trains work on Southern Metro routes, or even with a carriage removed (using the spare carriages to lengthen a small number of 8 car 700s?

It still would seem more obvious to me to have moved the 707s to Southern rather than Southeastern - if fewer units are needed now, then there's slack to actually refurbish the Networkers and 376s properly, and then replace them properly in a few years when the various rail factories in the UK are running low on orders

I've said it before, but it feels inconsistent to have high density Metro stock like the 701s, 707s and 376s on SWR and SE routes, and indeed the Thameslink 700s, but have 377s with low standing space on the Southern routes. Southern losing the 455s and gaining the loaned 377s back from SE is a very different fleet shift from SE gaining the 707s and losing a few Networkers and 377s.

And for that matter, will SWR really need all the high capacity 701s, assuming they ever arrive?

There not going to remove a carriage and 5 car more than adequate for majority of day but despite the prevalent view that wfh has changed the landscape reality is somewhat different so you need cater for increased demand at the beginning and end of the working day so you end up needing 8's or 10's. What i suspect we will see with SN May 22 TT is an attempt to run with shorter formations and accept overcrowding but then make the case to DofT to import the 387/1's.

With the 701's its pretty evident there will be too many which its why its bizarre they are refurbing 458's would have been better converting the later batches to outer suburban configuration. Of course you could see them as a modern day EPB and just spread them around the SE/SC/SW divisions!!

Its also a certainty that 133 720's are too many for GA as well so perhaps an opportunity to stick some shoegear on some of them for use on the SR.

 

[7ransport]

I haven’t heard anything but:
- Milton Keynes requires ten 377s and keeps being axed

- Portsmouth and Southampton to Brighton will be simply Chichester to Brighton from May

- All Brightons are currently 387

And among plenty of other cuts and considering the 455s are fairly loosely diagrammed to require just fifteen pairs a day for all day diagrams, I reckon it’s possible if the 377s are very much stretched and some 4 car services replace longer formations. It would mean the 313s’d need to cling on for longer though, surely?

I thought some fast Brighton services used 377s? ie the 17:09 Brighton - Victoria and some weekend services?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I thought some fast Brighton services used 377s? ie the 17:09 Brighton - Victoria and some weekend services?

Weekends will obviously require less units.

 

[ScotGG]

It's a shame we cannot see current levels of demand on Southern, SW and SE Metro to ascertain return to normality.

TfL break it down and while the tube is only at 65% and buses nearing 75%, tube stations in poorer areas have recovered quicker than say west London where more working from home. TfL also show variations with LO, trams and DLR.

Southern Metro and SE Metro serve some of the poorest parts of London don't they? It'd be interesting to see current passenger levels at peak and off peak.

Then again TfL have retained a decent service while metro rail routes from SE, SWR and Southern have been badly hit with cuts which will already hamper return to usage.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It's a shame we cannot see current levels of demand on Southern, SW and SE Metro to ascertain return to normality.

TfL break it down and while the tube is only at 65% and buses nearing 75%, tube stations in poorer areas have recovered quicker than say west London where more working from home. TfL also show variations with LO, trams and DLR.

Southern Metro and SE Metro serve some of the poorest parts of London don't they? It'd be interesting to see current passenger levels at peak and off peak.

Then again TfL have retained a decent service while metro rail routes from SE, SWR and Southern have been badly hit with cuts which will already hamper return to usage.

Indeed but ORR do provide a qtrly passenger usage release which is broken down by operator and overall ticket type. Next release for Q3 is due 17/3 but Q2 is here. Its showed the above operators at 50-53% pre covid levels and that season tickets are now 15% of tickets sold down from 35-40% so that is why revenue loss is so acute. However, also of interest is the release of support to individual operators which has been updated to Oct 21 recently and that showed GTR's support down to 40% of the 2020 level for same period with SWR worse at 47%. I would expect Q3 to show a modest improvement but Omicron would have impacted it as well.

It is interesting that TfL have pretty well held service frequency very close to pre covid levels yet National Rail Operators are largely (except LNER which still is at 44% revenue support compared to 2020) being required to cull services to reduce costs which is understandable although many still have train crew shortfalls which will take at least a year to remedy.

Also some Southern Metro stations even pre 2019 were't exactly well used give the population density with the Epsom Downs and Beckenham Jcn services particularly well down on the station usage lists yet merited half hourly services. So you can see where the soft targets are for reducing services to facilitate removal of 455's although im pretty sure it will only be achieved by allowing overcrowding at periods of higher demands.

 

[ScotGG]

Thanks for that link. Useful but as you state quite old data now. I'd expect metro routes have more pay as you go than season ticket sales?

On the subject of 455 routes, I was passing South Bermondsey station and despite being somewhat off-putting as a station and area with historically modest usage, 1000 student rooms are being built next door. Students won't really have many other decent forms of transport to quickly reach central London campuses as buses are so slow. I wonder if those planning cut backs are thinking of things like that?

 

[Snapper]

Now the Southern 455s are on their way out I'm compiling a new photo blog looking back over their days with both Connex and Southern. https://paulbigland.blog/2022/03/10/the-end-of-the-line-beckons-southerns-br-built-class-455s/

 

[tricky18jan]

Reported at Hove yard in store 455809/830

Hi all,

Are these units still at Hove ?

Are they easily viewed from the station or elsewhere?

I will be in London next Friday, i need 455830 for sight!

Any help or info appreciated

Thanks
Rich

 

[D1012]

Hi all,

Are these units still at Hove ?

Are they easily viewed from the station or elsewhere?

I will be in London next Friday, i need 455830 for sight!

Any help or info appreciated

Thanks
Rich

Went through Hove yesterday. These units were in the siding nearest the station, clearly visible from the train and platform.

 

[tricky18jan]

Went through Hove yesterday. These units were in the siding nearest the station, clearly visible from the train and platform.

Thanks for confirming!