Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

[OscarH]

The 377/3s have first class available

In which case I'm not sure why they wouldn't all be marked as first available as the reason not to is gone

 

[weeklycommuter]

In which case I'm not sure why they wouldn't all be marked as first available as the reason not to is gone

It is declassified on standard class only routes. See

https://www.southernrailway.com/tickets/ticket-types-explained/first-class

Portsmouth Harbour/Portsmouth & Southsea and Littlehampton (First Class is de-classified)

The fastest service from Cosham and Fareham to Southampton Central is the GWR Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central service which runs nonstop Fareham to Southampton Central and is standard class only. Why would anyone want to buy a first class ticket from Cosham or Fareham to Southampton Central to travel on a Southern or SWR train that is slower? I see no point in first class on GTR or SWR services, GTR and SWR should follow the example of Southeastern and abolish first class.

 

[Bikeman78]

This was long the case due to the 313s anyway, so it's not new confusion. Do the 377/3s not have first? That would explain it I think

My point is, there will be 377/3 running, some with first, some without, along the same line. Hopefully the revenue protection staff will be suitably trained.

 

[Sun Chariot]

My point is, there will be 377/3 running, some with first, some without, along the same line. Hopefully the revenue protection staff will be suitably trained.

It's very confusing for the casual traveller on Southern: Here's a quick glance on services (Up and Down diagrams) during a 1-hour period today:

Southampton - Brighton / Horsham: conveys First.
Portsmouth - Brighton: declassified First.
Portsmouth - Horsham: conveys First.
Portsmouth - Littlehampton / Barnham: within the one-hour sampled period (see attached), 3 services declassified First and 1 service conveys First.

377/1, /2, /3 & /4 all run in these parts. The average traveller won't distinguish a sub-class to know whether First is in use.

 

[leytongabriel]

St Denys really seems to have lost out over the years. Interesting to contrast the rather sad state of local services around Southampton with the efforts being made around say Bristol or Exeter.

 

[TrainBoy98]

St Denys really seems to have lost out over the years. Interesting to contrast the rather sad state of local services around Southampton with the efforts being made around say Bristol or Exeter.

That's the issue with Southampton, there's plenty of routes, competing operators, add freight too, and it's trying to do too much all at once. Sadly, some places therefore lose out

 

[nw1]

St Denys really seems to have lost out over the years. Interesting to contrast the rather sad state of local services around Southampton with the efforts being made around say Bristol or Exeter.

St Denys has (or certainly had) a massive problem of having the two trains per hour to Southampton Central leaving more or less simultaneously.

In the other direction they were within a few minutes of each other.

This was for the standard 2004-19 pattern, I presume the times haven't changed radically.

Arguably at least one of these new Southern services should stop at St Denys. It's in a well-populated area and close to Portswood, which has a lot of student accommodation.

They could have done so much more with St Denys just by stopping extra trains (or, rather, one specific service) there. In the sensible days when the xx39 Waterloo-Poole and v.v. were running, these could, I believe, have stopped there without losing their path, particularly in the up direction where they stopped at peak times anyway. The down services arrived SOU at xx12 with the following Weymouth fast not arriving until xx22, which presumably would have given plenty of time for the service to call at Swaythling and St Denys. This would also have restored a direct service from Waterloo to the two stations (and a reasonably fast one, too), which could have been useful with the large student population near both stations.

St Denys had its best ever service in the early 90s. Around 1990 and 1991 it had 3tph: the Portsmouth stopper, the Waterloo '93' stopper and a SOU-Eastleigh shuttle which was provided as a productive way of utilising what would otherwise have been a 55-odd min layover at SOU of the unit(s) forming the '93'.

There was a phase more recently when there were better connections at Parkway into and out of Waterloo trains and a better spread of services between Southampton Central and St Denys. I think it was immediately after Chandlers Ford opened and the local service had a better slot in the hour for connections (in both directions).

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

It's very confusing for the casual traveller on Southern: Here's a quick glance on services (Up and Down diagrams) during a 1-hour period today:

Southampton - Brighton / Horsham: conveys First.
Portsmouth - Brighton: declassified First.
Portsmouth - Horsham: conveys First.
Portsmouth - Littlehampton / Barnham: within the one-hour sampled period (see attached), 3 services declassified First and 1 service conveys First.

377/1, /2, /3 & /4 all run in these parts. The average traveller won't distinguish a sub-class to know whether First is in use.

To be fair, the reality is that not many passengers will know about the first class rules, and when in doubt, I suspect most will sit in standard class anyway, leaving an empty first class cabin, regardless of whether First Class rules are in effect.

There are even some guards who may give out penalty fares if the first class is not in use, as I implicitly believed on a Portsmouth & Southsea Fratton to Brighton train, where the guard stated it was on use (when I asked if it was in use on the service), but after aiming some tweets at southern, they said what the guard told me was wrong (considering their website, which was updated after I had aimed some other tweets about outdated information a few weeks before), and that they would (apparently) get the whole thing sorted and staff briefed on declassified first class cabins.

The only way that they can make people actually aware would be to have announcements at stations about declassified first class cabins, and only then would people understand, like how they sometimes do on Thameslink trains (such as those around the Sutton loop, where I sat in the front first class cabin with many other people who probably wouldn't have bought first class tickets considering its in the fare zones for the whole of that part of the journey) and on some announcements where you get the ATOS announcer saying first class is not available.

On balance, Southern (and Great Northern and Gatwick Express as well for that matter) really should just follow in southeastern's footsteps, and take first class off their trains, because for what you get, its a waste of money, with hardly any benefit with guaranteeing a seat, particularly when people break the rules, or you are in London, where they can't really enforce their own fare rules (considering they are set by TfL at that point).

Thameslink is a different case, considering first class has clear advantages, but I can't see who would buy first class tickets when you can just sit at the back and get the same benefits.

 

[weeklycommuter]

I agree that Govia Thameslink Railway should remove First Class from all their services as Southeastern and London North Western have already done.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

I agree that Govia Thameslink Railway should remove First Class from all their services as Southeastern and London North Western have already done.

The only exception should be Thameslink, because the seats are more comfortable, and you get plug sockets and tables, so you can't really declassify it.

I even think that declassifying the back compartment is odd, and a better case could probably be made for doing this on southern (say in the case of gangways that are in use, where you would get people having to pass through, particularly before a train division). Southern, GX and Great Northern are clear contenders.

The fact is, comparing southern's to SWR is like night and day, because SWR put actual effort into making their first class more worthwhile. To be fair, though, this is largely a matter that probably ought to be discussed on another thread.

On the timetable change, first class is apparently going to be added to Brighton to Portsmouth & Southsea services, which is currently declassified (a relic of the class 313 days on the route). I'm not sure whether that is worth it for many people, though.

 

[LudwigTails]

That's right, and southern are specifically basing it on door-to-door journeys. The reality is, allighting at Woolston and getting a bus to your location in the south city centre will work out quicker than staying on to Southampton Central, and then doing a double-back to reach your actual destination, either by bus or on foot.

What is door to door journeys?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

What is door to door journeys?

The journey as a whole for example from when you leave your door at home to arrive at the office door.

 

[weeklycommuter]

The only exception should be Thameslink, because the seats are more comfortable, and you get plug sockets and tables, so you can't really declassify it.

The rear first class on Thameslink trains is always declassified and on many Thameslink services both front and rear first class is declassified.
Clearly it was a mistake to build these metro and commuter service trains with first class seating when they are driver only operation, go through London and have a large part of their routes served by contactless and Oyster. Half or all of the first class seats are declassified because they would otherwise be left empty and not contribute to the seating capacity provided by the trains. There are clearly not enough first class ticket sales to fill both first class sections even on the longer distance services.

First Class | Thameslink Railway

Upgrade to First Class on Thameslink for your season ticket, day ticket or Travelcard.

www.thameslinkrailway.com

Thameslink services on our long distance routes have first class accommodation. Routes with and without first class are shown below. Where first class is available, this can be found at the very front of the train. The first class compartment at the rear of Thameslink trains is always declassified.
Routes with first class operate between;
Bedford and Brighton
Bedford and Gatwick Airport
Cambridge and Brighton
Peterborough and Horsham
Bedford and East Grinstead
Routes with standard class only operate between;
Luton / St Albans and Sutton
Luton / St Albans and Wimbledon
Luton and Rainham
Luton / St Albans / London Blackfriars and Sevenoaks / Orpington

On the timetable change, first class is apparantly going to be added to Brighton to Portsmouth & Southsea services, which is currently declassified (a relic of the class 313 days on the route). Im not sure whether that is worth it for many people though.

Real time trains currently shows the Portsmouth and Southsea to Brighton and the new Chichester-Littlehampton-Brighton Monday to Saturday services will both be standard class only in the June 2024 timetable. However the Sunday Portsmouth Harbour to Brighton service will continue to have first class. Examples

Realtime Trains | 1S14 0828 Brighton to Portsmouth & Southsea | 05/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1S14 0828 departure from Brighton to Portsmouth & Southsea on 05/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1S17 1014 Portsmouth Harbour to Brighton | 09/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1S17 1014 departure from Portsmouth Harbour to Brighton on 09/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

The rear first class on Thameslink trains is always declassified and on many Thameslink services both front and rear first class is declassified.
Clearly it was a mistake to build these metro and commuter service trains with first class seating when they are driver only operation, go through London and have a large part of their routes served by contactless and Oyster. Half or all of the first class seats are declassified because they would otherwise be left empty and not contribute to the seating capacity provided by the trains. There are clearly not enough first class ticket sales to fill both first class sections even on the longer distance services.



Real time trains currently shows the Portsmouth and Southsea to Brighton and the new Chichester-Littlehampton-Brighton Monday to Saturday services will both be standard class only in the June 2024 timetable. However the Sunday Portsmouth Harbour to Brighton service will continue to have first class. Examples

That is slightly unusual with those Sunday services, because that contradicts Southern's own website that says first class is declassified on Brighton to Portsmouth services, with no clarification on what days it is classified on.

In general, I would say don't look at real time trains for first class, because it is only a fan website after all, not made by National rail, Network rail or train companies.

In terms of what services will actually include first class, I think it would be best to wait for timetables to come out, which tell you whether first class is on that particular train.

It's generally one matter that train companies have control over, at least on their services (if not with ticket types which can be bought as standard or first class regardless of whether a route has first class).

 

[paul1609]

Real time trains currently shows the Portsmouth and Southsea to Brighton and the new Chichester-Littlehampton-Brighton Monday to Saturday services will both be standard class only in the June 2024 timetable. However the Sunday Portsmouth Harbour to Brighton service will continue to have first class. Examples

That's really nothing new. Coastway services have been standard class only going back to BR days even though they have intermittently had trains with first class accommodation. The longer distance London trains have always had 1st and Standard. I think that at one time Haywards Heath had the highest 1st Class revenue on the BR system.

 

[LudwigTails]

The journey as a whole for example from when you leave your door at home to arrive at the office door.

ooh i see.

 

[JonathanH]

In general, I would say don't look at real time trains for first class, because it is only a fan website after all, not made by National rail, Network rail or train companies.

It takes a feed of data supplied by Network Rail and the train companies. Someone at GTR will have populated the underlying data regarding the provision of first class.

 

[Horizon22]

It takes a feed of data supplied by Network Rail and the train companies. Someone at GTR will have populated the underlying data regarding the provision of first class.

Which is fine if the start of the day's service has come out of depots as expected and in the right order & orientation, less so if there is disruption and/or units are swapped throughout the day.