Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

[pompeyfan]

Maybe it could work at around xx10 and xx40 from Southampton, the latter would be behind the GWR while the former would be just ahead of the stopper. That would be the only option for an even-interval service, AFAIK.

Times are now on RTT, with the SWR stopping service retimed.

 

[30907]

For Southampton-Gatwick, if you change at Barnham instead of Chichester you can catch the Arun Valley stopper and spend an extra 10min on the train instead of the platform
With a half-hourly connection instead of an hourly through train, the generalised journey time is about 5min longer.

 

[hermit]

Nice to see that the smaller stations between Havant and Chichester get 2tph during school time, those stations are well used by students

From the perspective of IW people the good news is that we will get 2ph trains to/from Portsmouth Harbour. The less good news is that the train that has a reasonable connection off the ferry is the one that stops everywhere between Havant and Chichester. The extended journey time means that we are no better off time wise than we are at present - but at least we avoid a change en route.

 

[swt_passenger]

Brighton to Angmering is definitely an increase, from two to four trains per hour.

Yes, but the post I replied had implied a general doubling everywhere, at least that’s how I read it.

 

[Bikeman78]

Brighton to Portsmouth has not gone anywhere

That is my point. Previously, the plan was half hourly from Brighton to Chichester via Littlehampton but with the latest plan a through train from Brighton to Portsmouth will be retained.

 

[swt_passenger]

Interestingly will it in fact be an even half-hourly service? Presumably paths at the Southampton end may constrain things somewhat, particularly trying to work round the Southampton-Portsmouth stopper.

Maybe it could work at around xx10 and xx40 from Southampton, the latter would be behind the GWR while the former would be just ahead of the stopper. That would be the only option for an even-interval service, AFAIK.

(This of course illustrates why the ex-SR should really have been just one TOC. If that was the case, the whole thing could have been planned from a "pan-Southern" perspective, allowing the Southampton-Portsmouth stopper to be retimed if necessary)

They’d already said in the Southern consultation spiel in post #1 that SWR services would need to be slightly retimed to suit, and the way the TAA reads this was all agreed already, so I think you‘re worrying unnecessarily.

As mentioned by @pompeyfan the half hourly pattern is already uploaded, with SN departing from SOU at xx50 and xx20.

 

[nw1]

They’d already said in the Southern consultation spiel in post #1 that SWR services would need to be slightly retimed to suit, and the way the TAA reads this was all agreed already, so I think you‘re worrying unnecessarily.

As mentioned by @pompeyfan the half hourly pattern is already uploaded, with SN departing from SOU at xx50 and xx20.

Ah ok, thanks.

Presumably the Portsmouth-bound stopper will have to be significantly retimed to allow a path for the xx50, and presumably this may have knock-on effects?

It can't be retimed to xx53 or so because it would then delay the GWR behind it.

I'm guessing it might need to be retimed to around xx35 to allow a clear run for the new Southern service behind it, which would then have knock-on effects of not being able to be formed off the incoming stopper?]

(Looked at RTT but the SWR services are missing).

 

[swt_passenger]

Ah ok, thanks.

Presumably the Portsmouth-bound stopper will have to be significantly retimed to allow a path for the xx50, and presumably this may have knock-on effects?

It can't be retimed to xx53 or so because it would then delay the GWR behind it.

I'm guessing it might need to be retimed to around xx35 to allow a clear run for the new Southern service, which would then have knock-on effects of not being able to be formed off the incoming stopper?

Yes, I’ve been trying to work all that out too. I suppose it’s possible the long layover at PMS involved in the current pattern moves to Southampton somehow.

Of course combined with the Waterloo via Eastleigh service it provides for a fairly balanced SWR 2tph all stations stopping service between Portsmouth and Fareham, so if you move the Southampton stopper too far that half hourly pattern is lost. Will be interesting to see how it pans out.

 

[nw1]

Yes, I’ve been trying to work all that out too. I suppose it’s possible the long layover at PMS involved in the current pattern moves to Southampton somehow.

Of course combined with the Waterloo via Eastleigh service it provides for a fairly balanced SWR 2tph all stations stopping service between Portsmouth and Fareham, so if you move the Southampton stopper too far that half hourly pattern is lost. Will be interesting to see how it pans out.

It's possible some interworking with the Winchester-Southampton and Southampton-Bournemouth stoppers (i.e. the fragments of what remains of the xx39) is done?

For example, the down Winchester-Southampton could form a Portsmouth stopper, then the incoming Portsmouth stopper then forms the Bournemouth stopper.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's possible some interworking with the Winchester-Southampton and Southampton-Bournemouth stoppers (i.e. the fragments of what remains of the xx39) is done?

For example, the down Winchester-Southampton could form a Portsmouth stopper, then the incoming Portsmouth stopper then forms the Bournemouth stopper.

Yes that did occur to me, but I suspect that wouldn’t be a preferred option because interworking between the two routes would be a risk to overall performance. Besides, that Winchester originator might one day revert back to being a through train from Waterloo…

 

[nw1]

Yes that did occur to me, but I suspect that wouldn’t be a preferred option because interworking between the two routes would be a risk to overall performance. Besides, that Winchester originator might one day revert back to being a through train from Waterloo…

Interworking has been standard practice for years on the ex-Southern Region though, and according to the other thread on the xx39s, is still commonplace at Waterloo and indeed Portsmouth Harbour.

However, the point about the potential return of the through Waterloo is a good one (though I wonder whether it would actually be a WAT-SOU rather than going all the way to Poole).

 

[swt_passenger]

It's possible some interworking with the Winchester-Southampton and Southampton-Bournemouth stoppers (i.e. the fragments of what remains of the xx39) is done?

For example, the down Winchester-Southampton could form a Portsmouth stopper, then the incoming Portsmouth stopper then forms the Bournemouth stopper.

You might have been right on this option. I haven’t time yet to check the whole day though, but the times are in RTT now.

That misbalance in the Waterloo and Southampton trains I thought about is now there in both directions as well, they operate about 15 mins apart.

Another noteworthy extra is an SW ECS arrives from Portsmouth with a shunt into Fareham P2, and then forms an extra all stations service to Southampton in the morning peak, 0751. It’s possible that compensates somehow for the SN train that no longer calls at all shacks.

 

[pompeyfan]

Certainly when I spoke to someone back in October, the plan was for the 2E from Portsmouth to continue down to Bournemouth, and the arrival from Winchester to form a 2E to Portsmouth. I’ll have to have a look at RTT.

 

[kw12]

Certainly when I spoke to someone back in October, the plan was for the 2E from Portsmouth to continue down to Bournemouth, and the arrival from Winchester to form a 2E to Portsmouth. I’ll have to have a look at RTT.

From a quick look, the westbound SWR trains generally continue to Bournemouth and then work to Winchester before returning to Southampton and then an eastbound stopping service back to Portsmouth:

xx.46 Portsmouth & Southsea to Southampton Central (arr xx.44)
xx.58 Southampton Central to Bournemouth (arr xx.44)
xx.02 Bournemouth to Winchester (arr xx.24)
xx.49 Winchester to Southampton Central (arr xx.12)
xx.28 Southampton Central to Portsmouth & Southsea (arr xx.26)

The only trains to Bournemouth that start from Winchester are at 08.41 and 16.39.

 

[pompeyfan]

From a quick look, the westbound SWR trains generally continue to Bournemouth and then work to Winchester before returning to Southampton and then an eastbound stopping service back to Portsmouth:

xx.46 Portsmouth & Southsea to Southampton Central (arr xx.44)
xx.58 Southampton Central to Bournemouth (arr xx.44)
xx.02 Bournemouth to Winchester (arr xx.24)
xx.49 Winchester to Southampton Central (arr xx.12)
xx.28 Southampton Central to Portsmouth & Southsea (arr xx.26)

The only trains to Bournemouth that start from Winchester are at 08.41 and 16.39.

That’s my understanding too.

I believe the 0841 is formed off a Portsmouth - Winchester college additional service. I can’t remember where the 1639 comes from.

I’ve mentioned some of the other SWR changes in the June T/T thread as they’re not relevant here.

 

[swt_passenger]

Departures from Fareham to Southampton will be a much better spread around the hour than now, the current 3 fast trains run in fairly quick succession in a group. In June it’s getting a bit closer towards a 15 minute interval service with the GW about half way between the two SN services.

Another odd SWR service I’ve just spotted is 2Y13 0715 Waterloo to Southampton via Havant, it forms another stopper from Havant to Southampton, following about 10 mins behind the usual SWR train but not stopping at all stations

 

[pompeyfan]

Departures from Fareham to Southampton will be a much better spread around the hour than now, the current 3 fast trains run in fairly quick succession in a group. In June it’s getting a bit closer towards a 15 minute interval service with the GW about half way between the two SN services.

Another odd SWR service I’ve just spotted is 2Y13 0715 Waterloo to Southampton via Havant, it forms another stopper from Havant to Southampton, following about 10 mins behind the usual SWR train but not stopping at all stations

Isn’t the calling pattern for 2Y13 the same as it is now?

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn’t the calling pattern for 2Y13 the same as it is now?

I hadn’t checked. Just seems odd to run so close behind the normal train. Although they’re only 15 mins apart at the moment. I hadn’t noticed that as I’m never up and about at that time of day…

 

[pompeyfan]

I hadn’t checked. Just seems odd to run so close behind the normal train.

I’d imagine the stock is still needed in the Southampton area (possibly for the route learners), but unable to deviate to much on its original path from Waterloo - Woking.

 

[nw1]

You might have been right on this option. I haven’t time yet to check the whole day though, but the times are in RTT now.

That misbalance in the Waterloo and Southampton trains I thought about is now there in both directions as well, they operate about 15 mins apart.

Another noteworthy extra is an SW ECS arrives from Portsmouth with a shunt into Fareham P2, and then forms an extra all stations service to Southampton in the morning peak, 0751. It’s possible that compensates somehow for the SN train that no longer calls at all shacks.

OK thanks. Yes, it looks like this will indeed be the case from recent posts.

The 20-min turnaround at PSS means no long layovers on any of this group of services, presumably, except perhaps at Winchester.

I’d imagine the stock is still needed in the Southampton area (possibly for the route learners), but unable to deviate to much on its original path from Waterloo - Woking.

Those route learners still run, I guess?

I remember one was detached off the 0839 Waterloo-Poole and headed to Guildford and back, I think.

 

[Starmill]

The connection from Fareham (etc.) onto services via Gatwick Airport isn't ideal at 17 minutes. Typical journey times are around 30 minutes longer than today and applies in both directions.

Eastbound there's a connection at Hilsea which shaves off around 10 minutes. Westbound, it appears this connection, or one at Fratton, is not available. I don't think I'd really recommend changing at Hilsea though, apart from the down-at-heel nature of the local area and poor facilities, I don't think it's possible to get between the two platforms without using the stairs or undertaking an incredibly long walk via the main road?

 

[TEW]

Those route learners still run, I guess?

I remember one was detached off the 0839 Waterloo-Poole and headed to Guildford and back, I think.

Yes, although reduced in number from June it seems, as there are a few more passenger services which can fulfil the same function of retaining route knowledge.

At present there are 2 daytime round trips, and 1 evening round trip. That will reduce to 1 daytime round trip and 1 down service in the evening.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Something I have been wondering recently is whether southern will serve any of the intermediate stations between Swanwick and Southampton (other than Woolston, which is now going to be a full service). Currently, they are served by a small number of peak services, but I'm wondering whether that will some services will continue to any extent in the future?

 

[swt_passenger]

Something I have been wondering recently is whether southern will serve any of the intermediate stations between Swanwick and Southampton (other than Woolston, which is now going to be a full service). Currently, they are served by a small number of peak services, but I'm wondering whether that will some services will continue to any extent in the future?

Post #218 explained what will happen:
“Southern will pull out of St Denys, Bitterne, Sholing, Hamble and Bursledon completely”. Netley gets two calls per day towards Southampton only.

But when I checked on RTT a couple of weeks ago most of those stations will get extra peak calls from SWR at a similar time of day, so short distance travel into Southampton should not be affected. There’s an SWR all stations that starts from Fareham P2 at 0751, which is extra compared to the standard hourly pattern.

 

[paul1609]

The connection from Fareham (etc.) onto services via Gatwick Airport isn't ideal at 17 minutes. Typical journey times are around 30 minutes longer than today and applies in both directions.

Eastbound there's a connection at Hilsea which shaves off around 10 minutes. Westbound, it appears this connection, or one at Fratton, is not available. I don't think I'd really recommend changing at Hilsea though, apart from the down-at-heel nature of the local area and poor facilities, I don't think it's possible to get between the two platforms without using the stairs or undertaking an incredibly long walk via the main road?

I wouldn't faff around with SWR at all. Both Southampton to Brighton up services have a 4 minute connection to the Gatwick Express service at Brighton with a Cambridge service as back up 5 mins later.
In the down direction the connection is 9 minutes from the Gatwick Express to Southampton. If you are at the front of the trains on arrival at Brighton all of these connections are easily achievable it's a matter of walking around the buffer stops.
The through journey time is around 2 HR 20 ISH this way vice just under 2 HR for the direct current train, the new service is 2tph and will hopefully be loads more robust.

 

[Starmill]

I wouldn't faff around with SWR at all. Both Southampton to Brighton up services have a 4 minute connection to the Gatwick Express service at Brighton with a Cambridge service as back up 5 mins later.
In the down direction the connection is 9 minutes from the Gatwick Express to Southampton. If you are at the front of the trains on arrival at Brighton all of these connections are easily achievable it's a matter of walking around the buffer stops.
The through journey time is around 2 HR 20 ISH this way vice just under 2 HR for the direct current train, the new service is 2tph and will hopefully be loads more robust.

For those in the know regarding sub-threshold connections, of course.

For the other 99% of potential passengers they'll face the choice I said.

 

[paul1609]

For those in the know regarding sub-threshold connections, of course.

For the other 99% of potential passengers they'll face the choice I said.

The Southern to Southern connection time at Brighton is 4 mins and I regularly use the advertised cross coastway connections which are exactly 4 mins. The West Coastway to Victoria connection is about a 1/3 of the walking distance whether journey planners will show the connection between a GTR train branded as Gatwick Express but operated by the Southern Brand and a GTR train branded as Gatwick Express operated by the Gatwick Express Brand to the Southern Brands ticket regulations south of Gatwick I don't know! I suspect that due to the Brighton lines much higher frequency the journey planners will almost always show connections at Barnham/Hove/Brighton over Hilsea though.

 

[Starmill]

The Southern to Southern connection time at Brighton is 4 mins and I regularly use the advertised cross coastway connections which are exactly 4 mins. The West Coastway to Victoria connection is about a 1/3 of the walking distance whether journey planners will show the connection between a GTR train branded as Gatwick Express but operated by the Southern Brand and a GTR train branded as Gatwick Express operated by the Gatwick Express Brand to the Southern Brands ticket regulations south of Gatwick I don't know!

Well you do now. The answer is no. The ticket restriction doesn't come into it, it's simply a matter of the timetable data being different for GX and TL to SN.

Minium connection times aren't really based on how far it actually is to walk, or how long that might reasonably take. They're just numbers in a table that get checked.

I suspect that due to the Brighton lines much higher frequency the journey planners will almost always show connections at Barnham/Hove/Brighton over Hilsea though.

You suspect incorrectly I'm afraid. Hilsea is shown, Brighton is not. I can't see any permitted connections at Brighton which would beat the Hilsea time.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I've always found it ridiculous that Southern to Southern at Brighton is 4 mins despite the only Southern connection there (East to West coastway and vice versa) being the furthest you can possibly walk, with the BML connections being 10 mins. I can't see any reason other their belief that the BML has worse performance so better to cut out tight connections and minimise delay repay.

 

[paul1609]

I've always found it ridiculous that Southern to Southern at Brighton is 4 mins despite the only Southern connection there (East to West coastway and vice versa) being the furthest you can possibly walk, with the BML connections being 10 mins. I can't see any reason other their belief that the BML has worse performance so better to cut out tight connections and minimise delay repay.

My home football commute this year has had the 4 minute Brighton connection from a Portsmouth to Eastbourne train on the return journey. Much to my surprise I've not missed it once and although I don't have any luggage even from the normal platform 2 to 8 it's doesn't seem that tight a connection.