Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

[SouthernOne]

Yes, effectively the 'good' connections are Brighton to Portsmouth and Arun Valley stopper to Southampton, meaning the Gatwick to Southampton connections are poor.

It probably means, that if you’re travelling from Gatwick to Southampton, you’ll be routed via Clapham Junction. The price is a lot higher than via Barnham!

 

[JonathanH]

It probably means, that if you’re travelling from Gatwick to Southampton, you’ll be routed via Clapham Junction. The price is a lot higher than via Barnham!

Not if you specify "via Barnham" when you book the ticket. Then you would get a 20 minute wait at Barnham, Chichester or Havant.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Very true - despite being a frequent user of the busses, I seem to forget their existence when I'm on this forum!

Convenience likely wins too, with 2bph, and (currently) the £2 flat fare

Indeed. On top of that, the service is usually 3bph during the summer, and even then, stagecoach might be enticed to increased their frequency with the lack of direct trains from Bognor to Littlehampton, which could be by extending some of their Flansham park (some suburb at the edge of Bognor) buses to Littlehampton. Buses may be important from Littlehampton as well, because the lower frequency and the higher fares of the train westbound may also encourage some people to get the bus to Chichester rather than the train, such as if the train is cancelled or you just missed it, not to mention with pensioners with their bus passes, although I suppose an advertised alternative however would be to go via Angmering for a connection from there, which would be a valid route out of Littlehampton.

Not if you specify "via Barnham" when you book the ticket. Then you would get a 20 minute wait at Barnham, Chichester or Havant.

That's right, and southern are always cheaper than SWR in the Portsmouth and Southampton area with services like that. Albeit, it will more likely read something along the lines of "via Three Bridges". Either way, it sucks that Southampton are losing their Gatwick service, but its a luxury as it is, because the southern service from Southampton to London Victoria is just not practical for commuters (which will basically always outnumber airport travellers, particularly for an airport a good distance from Southampton), because it takes almost twice as long as taking SWR these days, despite the cheaper fare. Portsmouth has a better case for keeping the service, because the difference is smaller (generally only around 30-40 minutes compared to the fastest SWR services, compared to 1 hour 10 minutes with Southern vs SWR in southampton), and the price gap is actually justifiable to consider using the service.

 

[OscarH]

Indeed. On top of that, the service is usually 3bph during the summer, and even then, stagecoach might be enticed to increased their frequency with the lack of direct trains from Bognor to Littlehampton, which could be by extending some of their Flansham park (some suburb at the edge of Bognor) buses to Littlehampton. Buses may be important from Littlehampton as well, because the lower frequency and the higher fares of the train westbound may also encourage some people to get the bus to Chichester rather than the train, such as if the train is cancelled or you just missed it, not to mention with pensioners with their bus passes, although I suppose an advertised alternative however would be to go via Angmering for a connection from there, which would be a valid route out of Littlehampton.

Especially with the new 500 for people going Littlehampton to Chichester as well as the 700, I could see that being an appealing option

With your last point, is a ticket from Littlehampton to the west valid via Angmering? I didn't think it was

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Not to mention all the rules in the routeing guide etc etc, journey planners will sell you a normal ticket going west when you specify via Angmering.

 

[MrJeeves]

Not to mention all the rules in the routeing guide etc etc, journey planners will sell you a normal ticket going west when you specify via Angmering.

This will only happen if the station to the west is outside of Ford Group. The route via Angmering is permitted provided the journey is a mapped one (i.e., from and to different routeing points).

If you try to search Littlehampton to Barnham via Angmering, for example, you won't get a through ticket.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Especially with the new 500 for people going Littlehampton to Chichester as well as the 700, I could see that being an appealing option

With your last point, is a ticket from Littlehampton to the west valid via Angmering? I didn't think it was

In all logic, it should realistically be an allowed route. This is based on many other instances where you effectively do a "double back" with some journeys, and Angmering should count as one, provided you immediately get off the train at Angmering, because if you were going any further, that is off-route, and therefore invalid. To be fair though, there are other instances in the same area where it should be alright, such as going via Littlehampton (and changing there) being a valid route east-west (or vice versa), or going through Fratton to travel from Southampton to somewhere east such as Littlehampton, such as a time when I was travelling from Bognor to Southampton, and I ended up going via Fratton, and that was alright. In all honesty, I cannot see a guard issuing a penalty fare for going via Angmering on a Littlehampton to Chichester ticket unless they caught you further down the line (such as at Worthing) without another ticket or the train skipping Angmering (as they have done occasionally when the train is running behind schedule). The worst they would do would be to remind you that you need to get out at Angmering.
The main reason it doesn't happen now is because there are generally enough westbound trains from Littlehampton which can mitigate the need, combined with the present 30-minute gap between services at Littlehampton (because both of the westbound services from Littlehampton run between London services, rather than having one before a London service, and one after a London service, which they likely would have done if the original idea of 2 tph Brighton to Chichester had gone ahead).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Also posted in June 24 Timetable Change

One (fairly insignificant but interesting to note) consequence of the Southern changes which I haven't seen mentioned yet is that Southern will pull out of St Denys, Bitterne, Sholing, Hamble and Bursledon completely.

Currently St Denys, Woolston and Netley get three or four services per day. As we know, Woolston will go up massively to 2tph, but Netley will be cut to 1tpd in each direction, and St Denys will be cut altogether. The daily service that stops at all stations will also be cut.

We already knew Bedhampton was losing its regular weekday Southern service, of course (a shame as my family and I use it as a Gunwharf Quays Park and Ride just off the A3(M)) but to clarify, the limited service it will retain is a single morning call in both directions around 6am, and a single evening call in both directions around 11pm.

Here's where it gets interesting. Currently on Sundays, Southern stopping services skip Hilsea, and the Sunday pattern is not proposed to change, so they will skip Bedhampton yet serve Hilsea hourly Mon-Sat, and skip Hilsea yet serve Bedhampton hourly on Sundays.

 

[swt_passenger]

Currently St Denys, Woolston and Netley get three or four services per day. As we know, Woolston will go up massively to 2tph, but Netley will be cut to 1tpd in each direction, and St Denys will be cut altogether. The daily service that stops at all stations will also be cut.

I haven’t checked fully, but the existing SN all stations train operates outside their normal timings, and currently it follows behind the normal SWR stopper in the down direction. So it might as well stop as it cannot overtake the SWR. It’s highly likely with more consistent half hourly SN departures from Southampton it just no longer works.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I haven’t checked fully, but the existing SN all stations train operates outside their normal timings, and currently it follows behind the normal SWR stopper in the down direction. So it might as well stop as it cannot overtake the SWR. It’s highly likely with more consistent half hourly SN departures from Southampton it just no longer works.

Stop at Woolston was put in for the good bus connections there.

 

[swt_passenger]

Stop at Woolston was put in for the good bus connections there.

We know that, (it’s explained in the original post in this thread from last June), but that isn’t the point I was answering, which was about the removal of the only SN all stations stopper.

 

[winks]

if Southern are doubling services on Westcoastway after June , does this mean a corresponding increase in OBS staff ?

 

[swt_passenger]

if Southern are doubling services on Westcoastway after June , does this mean a corresponding increase in OBS staff ?

They aren’t really doubling the number of trains at the particular destinations, they’re rearranging the origin/destination pairs. Both Southampton services will be to Brighton, and both Victoria services will be to Portsmouth Harbour. Portsmouth & Southsea retains a third service to Brighton.

 

[pompeyfan]

Is there any sections of line that actually sees an increase of trains per hour? From my understanding Chichester - Barnham now sees 6 tph vice the current 5. I’ve not really looked in detail at stations east of Barnham.

 

[nw1]

Not if you specify "via Barnham" when you book the ticket. Then you would get a 20 minute wait at Barnham, Chichester or Havant.

That does significantly impact upon the attractiveness of the train for reaching Gatwick from Southampton, you either have a more expensive journey via Clapham or a less-than-optimal connection via Barnham.

If there had never been a through service, it wouldn't be such a problem - but there has been an hourly through service since 1990 (i.e. Solent electrification). If there was a quick connection at Barnham it would be considerably more attractive though I recognise this may not be possible.

To be honest I do wonder whether they should have just left things as they were, as the "least worst" solution. Perhaps with longer turnarounds at Southampton (e.g. Victoria and Brighton interworking) to improve reliability.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Is there any sections of line that actually sees an increase of trains per hour?

The section of line with by far the highest customer demand is going from 4tph (off-peak) to 6tph.

 

[PGAT]

Is there any sections of line that actually sees an increase of trains per hour? From my understanding Chichester - Barnham now sees 6 tph vice the current 5. I’ve not really looked in detail at stations east of Barnham.

Barnham to Havant remains 5tph. Angmering to Hove doubles from 3tph to 6.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Is there any sections of line that actually sees an increase of trains per hour? From my understanding Chichester - Barnham now sees 6 tph vice the current 5. I’ve not really looked in detail at stations east of Barnham.

Good question, so as far as I understand, here are the frequency changes
- Barnham to Ford - 8 tph - unchanged, but with 1 fewer service to Littlehampton and 1 additional train to Brighton from Portsmouth (avoiding Littlehampton), still 1 to Littlehampton which reverses then continues to Brighton.
- Ford to Littlehampton - 1 tph - down from 2 tph due to the Brighton to Portsmouth service being reinstated but now avoiding Littlehampton.
- Ford to Angmering - 3 tph - up from 2tph (1 of which doesnt even call at Ford anyway, the existing Brighton to Portsmouth service)
- Littlehampton to Angmering - 3 tph - up from 2 tph with the 2 existing London (via Hove) services and 1 new service to Brighton
- Angmering to Hove - 6 tph - up from 4 tph with 2 additional services into Brighton (1 each from Southampton and Chichester (via Littlehampton)), which also restores the pre-covid levels between Hove and West Worthing with the stoppers.
- Hove to Brighton - 4 tph - unchanged because Hove shuttles will no longer run, with their paths being taken up by the additional trains from west of Hove, as mentioned above, albeit, that is a reduction from pre-covid levels, which were 6 tph when combined with the west worthing stoppers, I'm sure how evenly spaced though.
Generally, there's not too much difference, but the section from Worthing to Brighton, one of the busiest routes will be increasing in frequency back to pre-covid levels, from when the West Worthing stopping services ran that were withdrawn in 2022. They are increasing frequency where it matters most, that is on balance a good increase in frequency.

They aren’t really doubling the number of trains at the particular destinations, they’re rearranging the origin/destination pairs. Both Southampton services will be to Brighton, and both Victoria services will be to Portsmouth Harbour. Portsmouth & Southsea retains a third service to Brighton.

There's no doubling in the west, because the increase is meant to be in the east, which is busier for southern, particularly as they are the only major operator there.

That does significantly impact upon the attractiveness of the train for reaching Gatwick from Southampton, you either have a more expensive journey via Clapham or a less-than-optimal connection via Barnham.

If there had never been a through service, it wouldn't be such a problem - but there has been an hourly through service since 1990 (i.e. Solent electrification). If there was a quick connection at Barnham it would be considerably more attractive though I recognise this may not be possible.

To be honest I do wonder whether they should have just left things as they were, as the "least worst" solution. Perhaps with longer turnarounds at Southampton (e.g. Victoria and Brighton interworking) to improve reliability.

It will of course make it less attractive, but there is simply fewer people that use the service from southampton compared to the service from Littlehampton. Southern looked at keeping it, but its not possible. There is not enough airport traffic to justify the service on its own. I think this an unfortunate case where they probably have to get used to a future without trains to Gatwick Airport. In regards to the status quo, that is not an option, because longer turnaround times have been mentioned time and time before, as evidence by a list southern made of changes made to the London Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour via Horsham service with some of the changes dating back as far as 2015. None of these plans worked, and southern have argued that the best option now is a radical timetable change to sort out reliability and increase capacity on busy routes. From personal experience, with your idea of having longer turnarounds at Southampton, I really think that is impractical with the station layout. If the station was larger, you could have a separate unit always at Southampton Central station for the next service, so therefore, you can avoid the issue of short turnaround time by allowing a late train to arrive late, and the next train to depart on time. However, with platform space, as well as siding space and the number of units that southern currently have, that is just impossible to achieve, and therefore majorly retiming for longer turnaround time is probably the best option at this time.

 

[JonathanH]

To be honest I do wonder whether they should have just left things as they were, as the "least worst" solution.

Something had to be done with the wasteful use of four units to provide local services between Littlehampton Bognor and Portsmouth, which could be better used at the Brighton end of the line, where demand is greater.

 

[OneOfThe48]

That does significantly impact upon the attractiveness of the train for reaching Gatwick from Southampton, you either have a more expensive journey via Clapham or a less-than-optimal connection via Barnham.

If there had never been a through service, it wouldn't be such a problem - but there has been an hourly through service since 1990 (i.e. Solent electrification). If there was a quick connection at Barnham it would be considerably more attractive though I recognise this may not be possible.

To be honest I do wonder whether they should have just left things as they were, as the "least worst" solution. Perhaps with longer turnarounds at Southampton (e.g. Victoria and Brighton interworking) to improve reliability.

Most people from Southampton going to Havant and beyond where the Southern trains are your only option (at 15-45 minute intervals I think) are going to Havant, Chichester or towards Brighton, rather than up to Gatwick.

It'll be a pain for the people going to Horsham or Gatwick, but on the whole I think the even half-hourly to Brighton will benefit the majority of people.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Something had to be done with the wasteful use of four units to provide local services between Littlehampton Bognor and Portsmouth, which could be better used at the Brighton end of the line, where demand is greater.

Quite right, I have often used those services, with Bognor services, the 8:15 is overcrowded up to Barnham because of Philip Howard school, but then empty from Barnham to Littlehampton, therefore, running it only as far as Barnham would likely be far enough. Littlehampton to Portsmouth services usually only somewhat busy as far as Chichester (as i found out from looking at destination data a few months ago, if someone could dig up that website, that would be much appreciated for further analysis of these plans), when it empties out, then passengers for the quiet stations board. This latter task is to be fulfilled by the extra London Victoria to Portsmouth service, so the service from Littlehampton is redundant. In general, one of three services serving only a single station branch line from a three point split, and that station being only an average sized town like Littlehampton (rather than a major city such as in the case of Brighton) is just an ineffective use of resources which could have clearly been moved further east.

 

[Bikeman78]

They aren’t really doubling the number of trains at the particular destinations, they’re rearranging the origin/destination pairs. Both Southampton services will be to Brighton, and both Victoria services will be to Portsmouth Harbour. Portsmouth & Southsea retains a third service to Brighton.

Brighton to Angmering is definitely an increase, from two to four trains per hour.

Something had to be done with the wasteful use of four units to provide local services between Littlehampton Bognor and Portsmouth, which could be better used at the Brighton end of the line, where demand is greater.

Has anyone attempted to calculate how many extra units the new timetable requires? I am surprised that five trains per hour have been retained between Barnham and Havant. It seems that losing the through train from Brighton to Portsmouth was a step too far, even with a half hourly same platform change option.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I note that Amberley goes from 1tph to 2 tph.

 

[PGAT]

Brighton to Angmering is definitely an increase, from two to four trains per hour.


Has anyone attempted to calculate how many extra units the new timetable requires? I am surprised that five trains per hour have been retained between Barnham and Havant. It seems that losing the through train from Brighton to Portsmouth was a step too far, even with a half hourly same platform change option.

Brighton to Portsmouth has not gone anywhere

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I note that Amberley goes from 1tph to 2 tph.

Christ's hospital does as well.

 

[ollie_hunt1660]

Nice to see that the smaller stations between Havant and Chichester get 2tph during school time, those stations are well used by students

 

[driverd]

Just for context here, could anyone advise what the situation was previously for Southampton Central - Horsham/Gatwaick/East Croydon?

I've seen much ado made about the connection up thread, but looking at RTT, I'm seeing a 16 minute connection in one direction and 19 minutes in the other, which, in northern land, is absolutely fantastic (especially every half hour). Is the journey time in one direction substantially longer now (I'm assuming Portsmouth trains used to be the fast portion toward London rather than Bognor)?

Obviously if a more expensive route is now the faster, I can understand how that could be off-putting for many customers as many wouldn't be savy enough to manipulate ticket booking apps etc.

 

[ollie_hunt1660]

Just for context here, could anyone advise what the situation was previously for Southampton Central - Horsham/Gatwaick/East Croydon?

I've seen much ado made about the connection up thread, but looking at RTT, I'm seeing a 16 minute connection in one direction and 19 minutes in the other, which, in northern land, is absolutely fantastic (especially every half hour). Is the journey time in one direction substantially longer now (I'm assuming Portsmouth trains used to be the fast portion toward London rather than Bognor)?

Obviously if a more expensive route is now the faster, I can understand how that could be off-putting for many customers as many wouldn't be savy enough to manipulate ticket booking apps etc.

There is currently a service to Gatwick and London once every hour, however before 2007 this service ran via Worthing and hove

 

[nw1]

I note that Amberley goes from 1tph to 2 tph.

A contrast from one point in the 80s when it had one train every 2 or 3 hours!

The 1985 Arun Valley timetable was:

xx08 (ish) Victoria to Bognor calling at Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and all to Bognor EXCEPT Faygate, Christs Hospital and Amberley
xx40 (ish) Victoria to Horsham calling at Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Purley, Redhill, Horley, and all to Horsham EXCEPT Faygate, with occasional extensions to Littlehampton, every 2 or 3 hours, providing the only service to Christs Hospital and Amberley

1985 was more generally the worst timetable of the 80s across the Southern Region, very much a timetable of cuts. I guess a lag-effect of the early-80s recession.

That was it! To be fair it didn't last long: there were 3tph in 1983 (Portsmouth/Bognor semi-fast, Bognor stopping, providing the hourly service calling at Amberley, and Horsham terminator) and 3tph again in 1986 (a Bognor and two Horsham terminators) though IIRC Amberley didn't regain an hourly service until 1990 when Portsmouth/Bognor portion working resumed.

Just for context here, could anyone advise what the situation was previously for Southampton Central - Horsham/Gatwaick/East Croydon?

Through services began in 1990 with an hourly service which provided both a fast service along the coast and a Gatwick connection, routed via Hove. It was genuinely limited stop (Havant - Chichester - Barnham - Worthing - Shoreham - Hove - Haywards Heath - Gatwick - East Croydon - Clapham Junction - Victoria, IIRC) and, with a connection at Hove, provided for both the Gatwick and the Brighton market. This departed Southampton Central around xx22, a departure time which changed little for many years.

Prior to 1990 this same service went to Portsmouth Harbour instead. In 1990 the Portsmouth via Arun Valley was resumed, last seen in 1983/4.

The 1990 pattern persisted more or less throughout the remaining years of the slam-door era, and for a while the service was extended to and from Bournemouth producing a true "south coast express". The current pattern (one Victoria via Arun Valley and one Brighton) was introduced sometime in the mid-00s though I confess I can't remember exactly what year. It was well-established by around 2012, though.

Most people from Southampton going to Havant and beyond where the Southern trains are your only option (at 15-45 minute intervals I think) are going to Havant, Chichester or towards Brighton, rather than up to Gatwick.

It'll be a pain for the people going to Horsham or Gatwick, but on the whole I think the even half-hourly to Brighton will benefit the majority of people.

Interestingly will it in fact be an even half-hourly service? Presumably paths at the Southampton end may constrain things somewhat, particularly trying to work round the Southampton-Portsmouth stopper.

Maybe it could work at around xx10 and xx40 from Southampton, the latter would be behind the GWR while the former would be just ahead of the stopper. That would be the only option for an even-interval service, AFAIK.

(This of course illustrates why the ex-SR should really have been just one TOC. If that was the case, the whole thing could have been planned from a "pan-Southern" perspective, allowing the Southampton-Portsmouth stopper to be retimed if necessary)

 

[JonathanH]

The current pattern (one Victoria via Arun Valley and one Brighton) was introduced sometime in the mid-00s though I confess I can't remember exactly what year. It was well-established by around 2012, though.

2007