Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

[ThameslinkUser]

This doesn't make sense on any level.

The services that have no first class are the ones that are booked to have either entirely or partially 3 car operation. It will be to boost capacity and makes sense.

 

[MrJeeves]

All the rolling stock has first class labelled as such.

I mean it's no different to Class 700s, except those were procured with the ability to have a special message noting the area is declassified for approximately 10 seconds every 5 minutes...

 

[Bikeman78]

The services that have no first class are the ones that are booked to have either entirely or partially 3 car operation. It will be to boost capacity and makes sense.

If all three car trains are standard only then at least there is some logic. Hopefully they won't be labelled up as first. Given that all Southern trains are 377s or 387s now, I'd be inclined to introduce first on all routes. Some people might upgrade in order to get a seat. Otherwise abolish it entirely.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Otherwise abolish it entirely.

As established already, this is the option all parties (seemingly aside from the Treasury) want.

 

[Kite159]

As established already, this is the option all parties (seemingly aside from the Treasury) want.

I'm surprised 1st class has lasted on Southern considering it was axed by South Eastern & London Northwestern services which probably had a similar volume of 1st class season ticket holders or other genuine 1st class passengers (so excluding those who sit in 1st class with a standard class ticket only moving if the OBS pops up checking tickets "oh this is 1st class, I didn't notice")

 

[PGAT]

They also had a great opportunity to remove it whilst the 377s were getting refurbished

 

[Bikeman78]

They also had a great opportunity to remove it whilst the 377s were getting refurbished

There isn't much to remove. A few labels and a yellow stripe on the outside. Assuming the extra revenue exceeds the cost of the bits of paper on the headrests, there's no obvious reason to get rid of it.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

This doesn't make sense on any level. All the rolling stock has first class labelled as such. Other services on the same track have first class and there are first class fares available. It's just bizarre.

That's absolutely right. From a guard point of view, all first class being classified based on route really means is that people who sit in first class without the appropriate ticket will simply not get fined for being there, which could happen on other services. In general, unless you know the rules, first class is de facto always in use to passengers, and they won't sit there.
It can be difficult to know anyways, because say for example at Worthing, there are currently 2 services to Brighton, with 1 from southampton having first class in use, and the 1 from Portsmouth having first class declassfied, and while if you know the southern network well, you might be able to tell a based on the stopping pattern (The Portsmouth train calls at Aldrington, but the Southampton train calls at Fishersgate), from the passengers perspective, it doesn't matter whether theres first class or not, they just don't bother sitting there.
I don't think guards even know all the time, because I boarded a Brighton train from Fratton, where the guard claimed first class was in use, but southern's websites and their tweets said otherwise, but I wasn't up for a potential argument with a guard and/or a penalty fare, so I just sat in standard.
In general, its a mess, that will likely persist until first class is inevitably removed, or otherwise improved under some unlikely scenario.

If all three car trains are standard only then at least there is some logic. Hopefully they won't be labelled up as first. Given that all Southern trains are 377s or 387s now, I'd be inclined to introduce first on all routes. Some people might upgrade in order to get a seat. Otherwise abolish it entirely.

I will need to point out that there is one route where first class is in operation on class 377/3s, and that is the Redhill to Tonbridge line. It used to be a through service to london, but even when it was cut back to a shuttle, it was retained on the shuttle trains which the 377/3s operate. They would likely need to decide to declassify that route (as they probably should do considering its pointless on a shuttle service of only 30 minutes end-to-end) before they could look at removing first class on those units.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Although the title of the page is talking about the consultation, I have been wondering, now that the changes are implemented, what does everyone (who travel on any part of the west coastway line) think of the new changes?

 

[JonathanH]

Although the title of the page is talking about the consultation, I have been wondering, now that the changes are implemented, what does everyone (who travel on any part of the west coastway line) think of the new changes?

The key question is whether journeys into Brighton have been improved by the increase in capacity.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

The key question is whether journeys into Brighton have been improved by the increase in capacity.

You can argue that with the West Coastway line as far west as Angmering, where it has gone from 2 tph to 4 tph. The main negative with improvements however is west, where although there is now a direct service from Littlehampton, and for the whole line as far west as Havant, there's 3 tph. However, the main negative is with the Chichester to Brighton service, where running via Littlehampton is slower than taking a late train (i.e. it leaves Chichester a few minutes earlier than the next service (originating from Southampton), but due to running through Littlehampton, then arrives later, meaning many passengers who know the line well won't use it all the way to Brighton.

 

[JonathanH]

However, the main negative is with the Chichester to Brighton service, where running via Littlehampton is slower than taking a late train (i.e. it leaves Chichester a few minutes earlier than the next service (originating from Southampton), but due to running through Littlehampton, then arrives later, meaning many passengers who know the line well won't use it all the way to Brighton.

The main negative is the increase in journey times from Southampton to anywhere beyond the Arun Valley, but in part that is counteracted by what should be a more consistent and reliable service.

Passengers getting on the wrong train at Chichester for Brighton can be overcome by good announcements.

 

[PGAT]

The main negative is the increase in journey times from Southampton to anywhere beyond the Arun Valley, but in part that is counteracted by what should be a more consistent and reliable service.

This shouldn't be that big of an issue though. Journey time was always the sacrifice you made if you were going from Southampton to Victoria or Clapham Junction anyway.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The main negative is the increase in journey times from Southampton to anywhere beyond the Arun Valley, but in part that is counteracted by what should be a more consistent and reliable service

The other main negative is the removal of direct trains between Southampton and Fareham to Gatwick which have existed for over 30 years.

 

[JonathanH]

The other main negative is the removal of direct trains between Southampton and Fareham to Gatwick which have existed for over 30 years.

That is the same negative? A 25 minute connection at Barnham or Chichester isn't a great prospect for anyone travelling from East Surrey or North West Sussex beyond Cosham. However, those are the difficult things which the timetable people have to balance and you can understand why Brighton to Portsmouth connections were favoured over the Southampton ones.

(In practice, most people will, I expect, reduce the wait time by catching the stopping portion on the Arun Valley.)

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

This shouldn't be that big of an issue though. Journey time was always the sacrifice you made if you were going from Southampton to Victoria or Clapham Junction anyway.

With Clapham Junction, thats probably not really an issue, because there's a train into London Waterloo that calls there, so I suspect some people going there would probably pay more for SWR if the Southern option will take about twice as long now.

That is the same negative? A 25 minute connection at Barnham or Chichester isn't a great prospect for anyone travelling from East Surrey or North West Sussex beyond Cosham. However, those are the difficult things which the timetable people have to balance and you can understand why Brighton to Portsmouth connections were favoured over the Southampton ones.

(In practice, most people will, I expect, reduce the wait time by catching the stopping portion on the Arun Valley.)

Quite right, I suppose thats a good idea for Southampton staff to advise to people asking how to get to Gatwick Airport when they see no direct train on the departure board.
(by the way though East Surrey doesn't really count, because the former Southampton to Victoria service didn't have any stops in Surrey)

 

[JonathanH]

Quite right, I suppose thats a good idea for Southampton staff to advise to people asking how to get to Gatwick Airport when they see no direct train on the departure board.
(by the way though East Surrey doesn't really count, because the former Southampton to Victoria service didn't have any stops in Surrey)

Why doesn't East Surrey count? The Southampton to Victoria train called at Gatwick Airport which isn't much more than a stones throw from East Surrey.

Indeed, I have a colleague who commutes from Southampton to East Surrey once or twice a week via the coast route. Their journey home is essentially now three hours long rather than two and a half. If people want to go "via Barnham" from East Surrey to Southampton and beyond, not only is there a long connection at Gatwick or Horsham, but also one on the south coast as well.

You might take the view that people from East Surrey should be going to Southampton and beyond via Clapham Junction or Guildford / Woking because that is the quicker way to go, but there is a significant price advantage to going via Barnham. Whether the railway should continue to incentivise people to make long journeys via the West Coastway is another matter.

 

[K.o.R]

Southern rubbing salt in the wound by using Gatwick Express stock on Southampton to Brighton services.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Southern rubbing salt in the wound by using Gatwick Express stock on Southampton to Brighton services.

Indeed, this linked thread, post #696 has a 3rd June shot of a 387 on that working.

June 2024 Timetable Change

1N02 (05:14 Brighton-Southampton) was a Gatwick Express (387 203) this morning - it passed me as I walked the dog. The return service was, annoyingly, cancelled - so no photo. Tomorrow, I'll discover whether the new timetable has a 387 booked for that working, or whether today's appearance was a...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Indeed, this linked thread, post #696 has a 3rd June shot of a 387 on that working.

June 2024 Timetable Change

1N02 (05:14 Brighton-Southampton) was a Gatwick Express (387 203) this morning - it passed me as I walked the dog. The return service was, annoyingly, cancelled - so no photo. Tomorrow, I'll discover whether the new timetable has a 387 booked for that working, or whether today's appearance was a...

www.railforums.co.uk

Is Brighton to Southampton now exclusively Class 387?

 

[JonathanH]

Is Brighton to Southampton now exclusively Class 387?

No.

What is the progress on Barnham drivers signing them? The driver knowledge thread suggests that they only sign 377s but may be out of date.

 

[ollie_hunt1660]

Southern rubbing salt in the wound by using Gatwick Express stock on Southampton to Brighton services.

This morning at Havant I heard the announcer say to change at Barnham for services to Gatwick Airport, for the 0800 service, which I’ve not heard until then . At least why are taking some criticisms into account. Yet still is a bit misleading to put GX trains on services which don’t even go to Gatwick.

 

[Sussex Ben]

Yet still is a bit misleading to put GX trains on services which don’t even go to Gatwick.

It's a slight improvement on the last timetable which had GX trains passing through Gatwick non-stop. Thankfully that's now been sorted.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

It's a slight improvement on the last timetable which had GX trains passing through Gatwick non-stop. Thankfully that's now been sorted.

I'm not absolutely certain about that, because there is the single London Bridge to Littlehampton service which doesn't stop at Gatwick, and I think I saw that being operated by Class 387s at some point, so are you sure that they have now been organised in such a way where Class 387s will not be allocated to the service under any circumstances?

 

[Sussex Ben]

I'm not absolutely certain about that, because there is the single London Bridge to Littlehampton service which doesn't stop at Gatwick, and I think I saw that being operated by Class 387s at some point, so are you sure that they have now been organised in such a way where Class 387s will not be allocated to the service under any circumstances?

It's been 377s since last weeks timetable change, at least every day I've travelled on it. Obviously it could still be 387s in the event of a late notice stock swap, but this would seem fairly unlikely given some 377s turned up on a Gatwick Express diagram earlier this week.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

It's been 377s since last weeks timetable change, at least every day I've travelled on it. Obviously it could still be 387s in the event of a late notice stock swap, but this would seem fairly unlikely given some 377s turned up on a Gatwick Express diagram earlier this week.

To be fair, given the number of trains Southern (likely on the orders of the DfT) has scrapped without replacement (in the form of a new or cascaded fleet of a comparable amount), both Southern, and GX for that matter, probably need to use each others fleets more than ever going forward, at least until passengers number go up enough that some new trains could be ordered, which probably wont be for years at this rate, unless labour somehow manages railways better when they inevitably get into power next month.

 

[PGAT]

The chance of any new rolling stock being ordered in the near future is basically 0. The 387s obtained from Great Northern will facilitate for all of the frequency uplifts that have the slightest chance of happening

 

[JonathanH]

The chance of any new rolling stock being ordered in the near future is basically 0.

The continued refinement of the timetable to get the most out of the existing rolling stock shows that incremental changes can still deliver a capacity boost.

 

[Andy1673]

Is Brighton to Southampton now exclusively Class 387?

No. Likely 4 387s and 4 377s

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

No. Likely 4 387s and 4 377s

Thanks, I just remember in some paper (probably somewhere in this forum) it was mentioned that southern was planning to allocate class 387s to Brighton to Southampton services. Must have been a longer term aspiration or something along those lines i reckon.