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Southern Victoria to Portsmouth and Southampton chronic bad performance

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Screenshot_20171221-172518.png Here is the current departure board at Swanwick the final station before termination or first stop on the up trains and it is regularly like this. When I worked there it was a never ending saga of problems, which I decided in the end wasn't something I wanted to continue with.
 
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HowardGWR

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I'm beginning to wonder - is there no financial consequence for this abysmal level of performance? It doesn't seem as though there is anyone in GTR or at SN level who gives a fig.
 

sarahj

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There is of course other issues that never get a mention. The signalling system between Fareham and St Denny's, is, well crap. 2 aspect, big sections. You cannot leave St Denny's coming back until the previous train has gone all the way round the bay to Woolston. Other gaps are just as big. You can end up sitting at Swanwick for a path to Fareham. Even the shunt at Fareham is a pain. Out, back into the bay, back out to the tunnel, back into the station.
Today all went wrong due to faulty signals at Bedhampton, with 2 sigs each way being talked past. My 15.23 BTN-LIT was preceded by a BTN-PMH which was 21 mins late leaving, ran fast to Worthing and then got terminated at Chichester. My later trip to PMH from LIT was only slightly late, and we made it back to Brighton on time, but canx were all around us, and even when I was coming back from Barnham at 21.07, trains heading west were still being canx or terminated early at Chi. (my last train, the 23.44 Btn to Hov was canx as the driver was needed elsewhere, but that was due to another incident at NVH)
 

pompeyfan

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There is of course other issues that never get a mention. The signalling system between Fareham and St Denny's, is, well crap. 2 aspect, big sections. You cannot leave St Denny's coming back until the previous train has gone all the way round the bay to Woolston. Other gaps are just as big. You can end up sitting at Swanwick for a path to Fareham. Even the shunt at Fareham is a pain. Out, back into the bay, back out to the tunnel, back into the station.
Today all went wrong due to faulty signals at Bedhampton, with 2 sigs each way being talked past. My 15.23 BTN-LIT was preceded by a BTN-PMH which was 21 mins late leaving, ran fast to Worthing and then got terminated at Chichester. My later trip to PMH from LIT was only slightly late, and we made it back to Brighton on time, but canx were all around us, and even when I was coming back from Barnham at 21.07, trains heading west were still being canx or terminated early at Chi. (my last train, the 23.44 Btn to Hov was canx as the driver was needed elsewhere, but that was due to another incident at NVH)

I was informed it was 3 signals in each direction at its worst. HT27/29/31 which are between Bedhampron LC and the A3.

Worth noting as well that E809 at Swanwick on the down (towards Fareham) often gets keyed back to red as that track circuit often flickers when the ground is a little bit moist. Certainly network rail have their share of the flack, but short turnaround times hamper this.
 

HowardGWR

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I see this morning that 1N08 (0832 SOU - BTN) and 1C29 (0913 SOU - VIC) cancelled throughout, already - 'due to a planning error'. I wonder what that's supposed to mean, any ideas? Mind you, I read that things are also desperate on SWR with Waterloo services from Pompey being cancelled 'due to shortage of guards'. Rather ironic that one.
 
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tsr

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Planning error basically also applies to rostering issues. There are rather a lot of problems rostering enough drivers to work today on Southern.
 

physics34

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I'm beginning to wonder - is there no financial consequence for this abysmal level of performance? It doesn't seem as though there is anyone in GTR or at SN level who gives a fig.

there basically isnt because GTR is a management contract. ...The whole idea of the franchise was to complete the smooth transition of some GN and SR services to Thameslink and of course the new Thameslink timetable through the core route....basically everything else is secondary. Im not sure on actually fines for cancelled trains or delays at the mo, compared to the arrangements for other franchises, but its clear that there is some kind of leaway being given.

On top of that there is a shortage of drivers and many drivers will not work overtime on the run up to christmas for personal reasons.... going shopping or christmas parties etc etc
 

HowardGWR

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Today Saturday 23rd, the services ran like a dream at least until afternoon, spot on time, all of them; I didn't check any further. I looked up the previous Saturday, 16th Dec, and the story was the same.
In post #16 JonathanH wrote:

"...there are a load of poor performing trains on the Southern network. The 0832 to Southampton follows the 0818 London Bridge to Tonbridge/ Reigate through the Redhill corridor. This is a desperately unreliable train with the added inconvenience of a split at Redhill. By the time it gets to Horsham the damage is done. The split at Horsham isn't the problem. In the May 2018 timetable the corresponding Southampton table will no longer come via Redhill. I suspect that its punctuality should improve."

In the next post #17, SarahJ explained what the knock-on effect can be, by the time these down services get very late to Barnham.

I looked to see why Saturday was OK, and sure enough, no interfering 0818 train from London Bridge, holding up the job (see this RTT link).

Here's the situation RTT snapshot at East Croydon.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/ECR/2017/12/23/0853?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

So it looks as though the problems could be solved if SN did what they want to do in May, now, as an interim solution. They could up their weekday performance in a trice, it would seem.
 

southernyoshi

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They put the peak train right before a splitter?! No wonder the service gets cocked for the rest of the day - I've known splits take 10+ mins (at Haywards Heath I admit but even so)
 

southern442

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Would it be a worthy investment to build an extra platform at East Croydon? Or failing that, building a fast line or two between platforms 2 and 3 and start having some trains skip East Croydon like an SWR-at-Clapham-type scenario?
 

JonathanH

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Would it be a worthy investment to build an extra platform at East Croydon? Or failing that, building a fast line or two between platforms 2 and 3 and start having some trains skip East Croydon like an SWR-at-Clapham-type scenario?

No need for a line with no platform face at East Croydon but two up and two down platforms on the fast side are probably needed.

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2015/east-croydon-revisited/

Funnily enough, the discussion notes that East Croydon would need to be run with only four platforms for a period if they ever do get round to reconstructing it and Windmill Bridge Junction to the north.
 

infobleep

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No need for a line with no platform face at East Croydon but two up and two down platforms on the fast side are probably needed.

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2015/east-croydon-revisited/

Funnily enough, the discussion notes that East Croydon would need to be run with only four platforms for a period if they ever do get round to reconstructing it and Windmill Bridge Junction to the north.
Would the need to only use 4 platforms for a time put them off doing it?
 

southern442

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Would the need to only use 4 platforms for a time put them off doing it?
East Croydon can handle a sunday service with 3 platforms just about, so I would assume getting around half the mainline services to skip East Croydon during the works could be a solution.
 

Sabre999uk

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I was informed it was 3 signals in each direction at its worst. HT27/29/31 which are between Bedhampron LC and the A3.

Worth noting as well that E809 at Swanwick on the down (towards Fareham) often gets keyed back to red as that track circuit often flickers when the ground is a little bit moist. Certainly network rail have their share of the flack, but short turnaround times hamper this.

Quick question, is it the same 3 signals that are causing trouble at Bedhampton today - I just got home before the disruption started.

Thanks
Steve
 

pompeyfan

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Quick question, is it the same 3 signals that are causing trouble at Bedhampton today - I just got home before the disruption started.

Thanks
Steve

Today was HT31, HT33 and HT35 so you’d assume there’s an issue somewhere.

Recently there was repeated issues near Hilsea and it turned out rats had gnawed through various important cables. Could be something just as bizarre.
 

sarahj

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Today was HT31, HT33 and HT35 so you’d assume there’s an issue somewhere.

Recently there was repeated issues near Hilsea and it turned out rats had gnawed through various important cables. Could be something just as bizarre.

I did see some massive rats a few weeks ago at Hilsea just off the up platform, to the left of the first shelter at the Fratton end of the platform. I was tempted to take a better peek, but we were running a bit late and some punters were waiting in the shelter.
 

nw1

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I don't think the people from East Grinstead, Redhill and Reigate would be to happy if they had a service call at Clapham Junction removed from one or all trains. That is what would be need to stop Gatwick Express trains.

After all there are already trains from Victoira to Gatwick that stop at Gatwick and at Clapham Junction.

Those trains are trains to the coast though, and IMX can be _very_ overcrowded with a mixture of commuters and airport users. Just seems better to me to separate out the Victoria/Clapham to Gatwick and Victoria/Clapham to South Coast markets.
I picked East Grinstead, Reigate and Tonbridge as I perceived those as the destinations where a through train to and from Clapham was least important - compared to say Brighton, Eastbourne, Worthing, Chichester etc, based on population size and general importance of all towns along the respective services. Granted it's a "least worst situation" scenario - the ideal thing would be to stop everything at Clapham if possible - but from personal experience a dedicated but non-premium Victoria and Clapham to Gatwick dedicated service would be an extremely useful service to have.
 

DenmarkRail

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Back in August, I booked the SOUTHAMPTON TO VICTORIA train from Chichester. It was cancelled from Fareham, and then diverted along the Dorking line at Horesham, therefore missing out stops between Horsham and East Croyden. That being said, they did make additional calls at Dorking.
 

Harbouring

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1C08 due at the harbour at 1204 and subsequent 1C49 1212 to Victoria starting at Fratton it seems. Trouble with the Victoria departure is you could turn up 15 minutes before, presuming 2-3 minutes to get your ticket and get to the right platform and then have no chance of getting it at Fratton unless it is held there until after the Waterloo and GWR so then having to go to Havant to get the next Southern from Fareham way.
 

greaterwest

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1C08 due at the harbour at 1204 and subsequent 1C49 1212 to Victoria starting at Fratton it seems. Trouble with the Victoria departure is you could turn up 15 minutes before, presuming 2-3 minutes to get your ticket and get to the right platform and then have no chance of getting it at Fratton unless it is held there until after the Waterloo and GWR so then having to go to Havant to get the next Southern from Fareham way.
It’s very unlikely it’ll get held for the Waterloo service, usually it ends up in front, delaying the Waterloo service at Havant.
 

Harbouring

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It’s very unlikely it’ll get held for the Waterloo service, usually it ends up in front, delaying the Waterloo service at Havant.

Which is what happened today. In fact as the Fast Waterloo was pulling into Fratton the Southern moved off simulataneously.

Problems at warblington LC today apparently. Not sure if it’s bad luck or things need looking at.
 

HowardGWR

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1C08 due at the harbour at 1204 and subsequent 1C49 1212 to Victoria starting at Fratton it seems. Trouble with the Victoria departure is you could turn up 15 minutes before, presuming 2-3 minutes to get your ticket and get to the right platform and then have no chance of getting it at Fratton unless it is held there until after the Waterloo and GWR so then having to go to Havant to get the next Southern from Fareham way.
That's not right, it was held at Fareham and returned to Vic on its path at 1239. What you have to do is get the xx32 to Brighton and await the Pompey to Vic at Havant or Barnham. OK, you lose 30 -45 mins but not so bad as an hour. I'll bet delay reclaim won't apply though.
Edit - see correction below, we were citing different trains.
 
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HowardGWR

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I was referring to this http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G70944/2018/01/05/advanced and it’s subsequent return http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G71053/2018/01/05/advanced

The stations I discussed where you would miss it even arriving in good time were Portsmouth and Southsea and harbour
I beg your pardon, I was colloquially thinking of folk from Southampton (where I am travelling from later this month).
We are both right, depending which destination one had in mind. It's the stopping short that can be a pest. From Southampton, if the GWR is on time, it is sometimes possible to catch up the stopped-short Vic-Sou train at Fareham.
 
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B&W

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Back in August, I booked the SOUTHAMPTON TO VICTORIA train from Chichester. It was cancelled from Fareham, and then diverted along the Dorking line at Horesham, therefore missing out stops between Horsham and East Croyden. That being said, they did make additional calls at Dorking.

Normally cancelled at Horsham as crews do not have route knowledge, perhaps DOO has lessened this with only the drivers needing to know the route.
What route was it after Sutton, via West Croydon or the traditional Mitcham jnc as was and then the Streatham spurs.
400 series could do Horsham/Vic in under 45mins given a clear road stopping at Dorking Sutton and CJ. Would have thought a 377 could beat that as it should accelerate and go faster up the banks than a 400 unit.
 

RUFJAN15

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Which is what happened today. In fact as the Fast Waterloo was pulling into Fratton the Southern moved off simulataneously.

Problems at warblington LC today apparently. Not sure if it’s bad luck or things need looking at.

The failure of a 700 across the station throat at Horsham also caused a number of the Arun valley trains to be turned short yesterday. This was reported on Southern travel information:

Customer Advice:
Earlier today, the 09:29 Thameslink service from Horsham to London Bridge broke down outside Horsham station blocking both lines.

As a result, services were unable to access or leave Horsham station.
 

HowardGWR

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I've been monitoring performance on this route since the new timetable. Last week and this, I travelled on it myself, from Dorchester to Gatwick (booked connection at Southampton via Barnham). This route is much cheaper than the route from Southampton to Gatwick via Clapham Junction. Don't ask me why. An off peak return via the latter route costs £70.30 and via Barnham is £31.70!!! The Barnham route is 20 minutes slower but both involve only one change, although only half the SWR Waterloo services stop at CLJ. I would have thought it useful to encourage pax to avoid CLJ but we are talking two TOCs here, so I suppose there is no coordination. Perhaps it works out better that there isn't, otherwise they would have 'standardised' fares to my disbenefit!

Performance on the Barnham route is unfortunately very hit and miss, as this thread previously discussed. The Vic - Southampton trains at xx.36 down and xx.13 up interleave with the Vic -Portsmouth ones at xx.06 down and xx.11 up. Thus Havant, Chichester and Barnham get a half hourly service to Gatwick and Victoria. The down Southampton trains have typically only a 11 minute turnround at SOU (same at Portsmouth Harbour for those), so a minor delay can escalate disastrously, given the very busy line from Barnham to Havant and then the junctions from there to Cosham.

Perhaps because of this frequency as far as Havant, there is a more relaxed attitude to CAPEing or PINEing services on the Barnham route, it seems. This however can be disastrous for those further west and can strand up-travelling pax from Weymouth to Southampton stations at Southampton, costing possibly an hour or so delay. My experience the last few weeks looking at RTT is that this cancelling and stopping short, is still continuing. I don't know how delay repay works when a booked connection does not turn up, as opposed to a delay endured on the same train throughout.

Last week, we travelled up from Dorchester S on the 1013. The 1033 is the connecting train but we had got to the station early, so took it anyway. The 1013 ground to a halt of half an hour at Bournemouth, due to a tree having fallen on the line at Sway. Luckily, our class 444 had wifi, so I was able to check how the SN half of our planned connection were doing on the way down from Victoria. They were not doing well and were PINEing all services short. We would miss our flight at Gatwick unless we stayed on the Waterloo and changed at CLJ, and of course this was now very late as well. Of course, we were caught up by the 1033 ex Dorchester, and it was running about 5 minutes behind us. I then discovered that SWR do skip stop on its Weymouth services to Waterloo. The xx.13 from Dorchester stops at Woking (for Heathrow) but not at CLJ (for Gatwick) and the 1033 stops at Basingstoke, but not at Woking but does stop at CLJ! Hurried searches of RTT (bless it!) shewed that we could bail out at Winchester, await the 1033 close behind. I had no idea what that would mean for our Barnham only ticket validity, but I was prepared to cough up if need be and argue about it later, although I hoped that the SWR guard (and of course the SN OBS from CLJ to Gatwick) would be sympathetic. Staying on the SWR train via CLJ would still enable us to get to our flight.

What non-computer-equipped, non-rail enthusiast pax would have done that day, I hate to imagine, the automated announcements at Southampton had just droned out 'change here for Gatwick, etc' and there were no manual announcements whatsoever.

Anyway, we made it and as no ticket inspections were made, I didn't need to pursue the matter further. The moral is that if one is using any trains from the west of Havant, to get to either Heathrow or Gatwick, then better leave at least three hours before the flight closes, whichever route is selected! Oh, and have your tablet or phone tuned into RTT (on several tabs!).

Seriously folks, this is not an Inter City level of service and it should be. Bournemouth, Southampton are two of our UK biggest cities. Gatwick, Heathrow and London are the three most important destinations from these and what we have is just a crowded commuter line, with trains that do not provide decent facilities for pax with luggage. Short of building a new HSL, I can't think of what could be done to improve matters, except a much higher degree of operational coordination and PIS provision. If anyone has also given thought to these matters I should be interested to hear their ideas. One idea that I thought of is that the class 377s should be modified to provide decent overhead luggage racks - like the 444s already have, and should have wifi fitted and refreshment trolley also provided. I will stop here but my down journey provided more thoughts on this subject, so will pause to hear ideas. I hope this was interesting, anyway.
 

JonathanH

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The problem with these services at the moment is that they are stopping at Ifield and Littlehaven to cover stops not being served by Thameslink.
 

swt_passenger

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...This route is much cheaper than the route from Southampton to Gatwick via Clapham Junction. Don't ask me why. An off peak return via the latter route costs £70.30 and via Barnham is £31.70!!! The Barnham route is 20 minutes slower but both involve only one change, although only half the SWR Waterloo services stop at CLJ.
I think it was explained quite a while ago that when SN reviewed/simplified all their prices, the fares for any flow routed "via Barnham" were basically considered as some sort of loss leader, and west of Havant they were not related much to distance at all.
...I then discovered that SWR do skip stop on its Weymouth services to Waterloo. The xx.13 from Dorchester stops at Woking (for Heathrow) but not at CLJ (for Gatwick) and the 1033 stops at Basingstoke, but not at Woking but does stop at CLJ! Hurried searches of RTT (bless it!) shewed that we could bail out at Winchester, await the 1033 close behind.
But that's been the case as long as I remember, as seen from the Southampton area? If a particular train doesn't stop at Basingstoke, Woking or Clapham Junction the idea is to change (preferably at Winchester) into the fairly closely following semi-fast train that will have come up from either Poole or Portsmouth.

But if an intercity service is defined by being faster with fewer stops, then following consultation the people spoke and basically asked for all the calls to stay the same...
 
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