Southport threatened to lose direct service to Man Picc & Airport

[Bletchleyite]

There are other services across the North currently running DMUs fully under the wires that the EMUs could be switched to thus freeing up the DMUs. One shuttles back and forth past my house everyday. How many extra DMUs is it taking to add the Airport to the end of the hourly Cleethorpes - Piccadilly service? My guess is 1 if any.

1 is better than 0. My view is that all possible DMUs should be released for the next 2-3 years given that there are some, and will be more, EMUs available. The conditions on TPE are grim, and that's all day, every day.

Piccadilly Line? There are 8 before you reach Acton Town. And then there will be Crossrail, so clearly someone thinks something is not coping, as you don't tend to spend £14.8bn without a pretty solid business case.

The business case for Crossrail is not primarily Heathrow.
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But when you come up with numerous not that significant flows you can finish up with a significant number of people affected. While you say about people having to change for Stockport now what about passengers for beyond Stockport who might have to change twice?

Beyond Stockport to where, precisely? You don't have to get very far beyond Stockport before travelling via Wigan and the WCML will make far more sense than travelling via Manchester.

Last time I went to Southport there were 40+ people arriving with suitcases from two arrivals which got there at the same time - one Manchester Airport and one Liverpool. I don't think people arriving with suitcases would be coming from Wigan or Formby but much further away.

The Liverpool is irrelevant, as that will not be cut. How do you know those arriving from "further away" did not in fact come from London or Birmingham, or indeed Scotland, via Wigan?

 

[northwichcat]

Beyond Stockport to where, precisely? You don't have to get very far beyond Stockport before travelling via Wigan and the WCML will make far more sense than travelling via Manchester.

Maybe you should look at how many alight services from the Macclesfield/Northwich/Buxton/Sheffield directions and board Bolton/Preston bound services at Stockport and Manchester. It's a very significant flow despite your claim of not having to go very far before travelling via Crewe and Wigan makes sense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe you should look at how many alight services from the Macclesfield/Northwich/Buxton/Sheffield directions and board Bolton/Preston bound services at Stockport and Manchester. It's a very significant flow despite your claim of not having to go very far before travelling via Crewe and Wigan makes sense.

What on earth have Bolton and Preston got to do with Southport? Neither of these stations will be losing their services to Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[northwichcat]

What on earth have Bolton and Preston got to do with Southport? Neither of these stations will be losing their services to Manchester Piccadilly.

Your claim about the WCML via Wigan making more sense. For many journeys it doesn't and you're underestimating the amount of usage some services have. Is Macclesfield-Stoke-Crewe-Wigan-Southport sensible? Is Buxton/Sheffield-Crewe-Wigan-Southport sensible? Is even Alderley Edge-Crewe-Wigan-Southport (with 2 changes) more sensible than Alderley Edge-Piccadilly-Southport (with 1 change)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your claim about the WCML via Wigan making more sense. For many journeys it doesn't and you're underestimating the amount of usage those services have. Is Macclesfield-Stoke-Crewe-Wigan-Southport sensible? Is Buxton/Sheffield-Crewe-Wigan-Southport sensible? Is even Alderley Edge-Crewe-Wigan-Southport (with 2 changes) more sensible than Alderley Edge-Piccadilly-Southport (with 1 change)?

Do we know there are significant demands for those very specific and relatively local journeys?

The suggestion of Wigan related mainly to longer distance journeys.

 

[Deepgreen]

Detailed point, but may I suggest the thread title should be "Southport threatened with loss of..." rather than "Threatened to lose..."

 

[Darren R]

Detailed point, but may I suggest the thread title should be "Southport threatened with loss of..." rather than "Threatened to lose..."

Or, more accurately still, "MP claims Southport could lose direct Airport services."

 

[northwichcat]

Or, more accurately still, "MP claims Southport could lose direct Airport services."

If you look at the ITT and the Arriva & DfT releases about the new franchise the odds of Southport keeping a direct Airport service must be as low as the odds for Leicester City getting regulated from the Premiership.

 

[Darren R]

If you look at the ITT and the Arriva & DfT releases about the new franchise the odds of Southport keeping a direct Airport service must be as low as the odds for Leicester City getting regulated from the Premiership.

Well I'm afraid that analogy is lost on me!

I have looked at what has been said officially, and haven't found anything to support what Mr Pugh is saying. He himself says that full details wont be announced until later - until then it is speculation. And I seem to recall that this is far from being the first time Mr Pugh has forecast the demise of direct services between Southport and the airport.

Incidentally, if direct services to Manchester Airport are so vitally important, who do I need to speak to about getting them provided for the hundreds of thousands of people across the Northern network who - the horror! - have to change trains to get there?

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW, given the nature of the place and its clientelle, Southport is far less deserving than, say, Windermere. The latter has had the direct services slashed in recent years.

That said, I'm not convinced a connection at Oxenholme is not adequate provided the service is frequent, of quality and runs late enough in the day (the latter is a problem if you want a weekend in the Lakes from darn Sarf).

 

[driver_m]

FWIW, given the nature of the place and its clientelle, Southport is far less deserving than, say, Windermere. The latter has had the direct services slashed in recent years.

That said, I'm not convinced a connection at Oxenholme is not adequate provided the service is frequent, of quality and runs late enough in the day (the latter is a problem if you want a weekend in the Lakes from darn Sarf).

Wow that's a snobby view of Southport, I'm not from there but to describe its 'clientele' and 'nature' is disgraceful. Your own personal prejudices shouldn't be a consideration of what deserves a service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wow that's a snobby view of Southport, I'm not from there but to describe its 'clientele' and 'nature' is disgraceful. Your own personal prejudices shouldn't be a consideration of what deserves a service.

You what?

Southport is not a major international tourist destination, fact. It is more a destination for older UK people, fact.

I don't see that as snobby. It is fact.

It's a nice enough place, but I doubt very many people fly into the UK and go there. Many people *do* fly into the UK and go to the Lake District, and Manchester is the most convenient airport to use for this.

 

[driver_m]

You what?

Southport is not a major international tourist destination, fact. It is more a destination for older UK people, fact.

I don't see that as snobby. It is fact.

It's a nice enough place, but I doubt very many people fly into the UK and go there. Many people *do* fly into the UK and go to the Lake District, and Manchester is the most convenient airport to use for this.

You obviously don't visit Southport very often nowadays I guess from that cliched nonsense. There's a huge population that massively clog it's roads every day in summer and trust me they aren't all senior citizens travelling on their free passes. Its not just an old dears place. Wigan and Warrington aren't huge tourist draws either, should we take their transport links away too?

 

[Ianno87]

You obviously don't visit Southport very often nowadays I guess from that cliched nonsense. There's a huge population that massively clog it's roads every day in summer and trust me they aren't all senior citizens travelling on their free passes. Its not just an old dears place. Wigan and Warrington aren't huge tourist draws either, should we take their transport links away too?

But the hoards clogging the roads aren't coming from Manchester Airport! More like Preston, Bolton, West Lancs, Wigan, Liverpool and some as far as Yorkshire. Oh look, that last one is where they're getting a new direct train to!

 

[trainophile]

Not everyone with a suitcase is using an airport.

It won't be so bad if there is still a service from Wigan Wallgate to Picc, and a service of some sort from Southport to Wigan at a suitable time to connect.

For inbound journeys to Southport, people will have to change from their arriving train at Picc and again at Wigan Wallgate, so there will be a considerable increase in journey time.

Why can't they leave things as they are? (Genuine question.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the hoards clogging the roads aren't coming from Manchester Airport! More like Preston, Bolton, West Lancs, Wigan, Liverpool and some as far as Yorkshire. Oh look, that last one is where they're getting a new direct train to!

Precisely.
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It won't be so bad if there is still a service from Wigan Wallgate to Picc, and a service of some sort from Southport to Wigan at a suitable time to connect.

There's always Salford Crescent, and with the move of TPE services from Picc to Vic there is furthermore the chance that Vic might actually be more convenient for some journeys.

Why can't they leave things as they are? (Genuine question.)

Partly because of the increased importance of Vic, and partly because the Deansgate-Picc line is chronically overused and as such suffers poor punctuality. Thin out the service and it'll improve.

 

[driver_m]

Not everyone with a suitcase is using an airport.

It won't be so bad if there is still a service from Wigan Wallgate to Picc, and a service of some sort from Southport to Wigan at a suitable time to connect.

For inbound journeys to Southport, people will have to change from their arriving train at Picc and again at Wigan Wallgate, so there will be a considerable increase in journey time.

Why can't they leave things as they are? (Genuine question.)

But conversely, why should a service that benefits West Lancs residents be cut? They use the airport and Man Picc as much as anyone else. Picc still is the easiest change point for XC connections and the largest number of seats to Euston in the NW. Most of the Foreign Lakes Tourists such as the large Chinese contingent that visit are arriving on guided coach tours after arriving via Heathrow. The railway or Manchester Airport sees none of that anyway.

Just to make a further point, try getting a hotel in Liverpool for any big event there, or any big football match. It's one of the hardest cities to get a reasonably priced hotel on a weekend. Also Aintree, the Air Show, one offs like the Open Golf, Southport is very handy for hotels and onward travel to Liverpool. It's also very affluent in its own right.

 

[fowler9]

Not brilliant news but how much does Southport need a direct link to Manchester Airport? South Liverpool doesn't have a direct link and has far more people living there than Southport. As for commuters, working in Manchester and living in Southport or Liverpool can surely only be a temporary solution anyway. This kind of living is not sustainable.[/QUOTE]

Why? Southport to Central Manchester is little over an hour. That's only 15 minutes longer than commuting to Liverpool, and I'm sure wages will be higher in Manchester.

I don't see your point. I said living in Southport or Liverpool and commuting to Manchester is not sustainable. I didn't say people in Southport should work in Liverpool. And anyway, won't Southport still have a direct service to Manchester, just not the airport?

 

[Camden]

It's perfectly possible to get a well paid job in Liverpool. As for commuting from Southport to either Manchester or Liverpool, one is inside the same city region and therefore has fares to match and a train every 15 minutes, and the other is some distance into another region.

On the actual subject in question, though, I am a little confused. I was under the impression that Southport's northern rail services would be improving through new rolling stock and enhanced destinations/frequencies, Southport to Manchester, Bradford and Leeds. Which I would have thought would be quite a good thing for the town, enabling people to get to it more easily and enjoy what it's got to offer.

 

[fowler9]

I think the direct Manchester Airport thing is more of a prestige thing than that fact that thousands of people from Southport need a direct train to Manchester Airport. I doubt Liverpool needs a direct link and I am from there. I have never noticed Lime Street flooded with people people with massive bags getting on the early hours trains to Manchester Airport for the mid to late morning rush of Trans Atlantic flights from Manchester. Why does Southport need it? Maybe it is spread out more with one or two people per train getting the Emirates, Etihad and Qatar flights spread across the day or a few getting the Singapore, PIA flights etc. Doesn't really justify a frequent direct service. Like I said people seem to survive changing trains to get to Heathrow. I include Liverpool in all of those comments.

I have been lucky enough to travel through many major airports, including several capital cities, that don't have a train direct from their own capital city or perhaps just one connecting line. Hong Kong, Brisbane, Auckland, Wellington, Sydney, Melbourne, Santiago, Prague, Warsaw, Barcelona, Buenos Aires etc. etc. but everyone seemed to cope. Why does Southport need a direct train to Manchester Airport?

Can't believe I forgot Heathrow.

 

[Camden]

Why do some people in Southport think Southport needs a direct Manchester Airport train, is probably more the question to ask.

You're right. A single, fast and frequent line from Manchester Airport into Manchester Piccadilly would do perfectly fine as a service, quite probably better even.

As for Southport, well if their trains go into Manchester they have that frequent service to the airport anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But conversely, why should a service that benefits West Lancs residents be cut? They use the airport and Man Picc as much as anyone else. Picc still is the easiest change point for XC connections and the largest number of seats to Euston in the NW.

I can't see in a million years why someone in West Lancashire[1] would travel to Euston or Birmingham via Manchester. Wigan or Liverpool are the sensible points to connect into London trains.

In any case the service is not being "cut". The train is simply being sent to Vic instead.

[1] Of which I am a former resident, so I am not totally clueless on the matter. Nobody I knew from West Lancs *ever* travelled down South via Manchester. It wouldn't even enter consideration, and it's probably not even Permitted.
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You're right. A single, fast and frequent line from Manchester Airport into Manchester Piccadilly would do perfectly fine as a service, quite probably better even.

To me Manchester's suburban network suffers from complexity and low frequencies due to the large numbers of stopping patterns. A more S-Bahn or Merseyrail like service would in my view be of much greater benefit - and something like 4tph or even 6tph Picc-Airport calling at all stations as an EMU would be a rather good thing.

Save the DMUs for where they're needed.

 

[northwichcat]

Not everyone with a suitcase is using an airport.

Indeed. Also not everyone going to the Airport will have a suitcase.

 

[driver_m]

I can't see in a million years why someone in West Lancashire[1] would travel to Euston or Birmingham via Manchester. Wigan or Liverpool are the sensible points to connect into London trains.

In any case the service is not being "cut". The train is simply being sent to Vic instead.

[1] Of which I am a former resident, so I am not totally clueless on the matter. Nobody I knew from West Lancs *ever* travelled down South via Manchester. It wouldn't even enter consideration, and it's probably not even Permitted.
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To me Manchester's suburban network suffers from complexity and low frequencies due to the large numbers of stopping patterns. A more S-Bahn or Merseyrail like service would in my view be of much greater benefit - and something like 4tph or even 6tph Picc-Airport calling at all stations as an EMU would be a rather good thing.

Save the DMUs for where they're needed.

I'll say this then. If a ticket from Picc to Euston is available for £12 (for arguments sake) and one from Wigan is £78 at the same sort of time, what would you go for? I never thought people from West Yorks as an example would use our service. But they do. And in numbers too. Split tickets are far more available now, even this forum will show that. I work out of Picc and it's still the main station by a mile. It's passenger numbers tell you that. Vic is still a pale shadow of what it was and its a shame but the reality. It's Picc/Oxford Rd that's the main attractor for people coming in. Not really the Airport but it's a facility that carries a strangely large amount of prestige but with the extra 2 platforms at Picc this shouldn't even be an issue for who deserves a service. There should not be anyone losing out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll say this then. If a ticket from Picc to Euston is available for £12 (for arguments sake) and one from Wigan is £78 at the same sort of time, what would you go for?

A skewed fare system is *not* a reason to plan the timetable. If people wish to avail themselves of dirt cheap fares, they can use the system as it is provided; the low fare compensates for the inconvenience.
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Not really the Airport but it's a facility that carries a strangely large amount of prestige but with the extra 2 platforms at Picc this shouldn't even be an issue for who deserves a service. There should not be anyone losing out.

Prestige isn't, either. The timetable should be planned around a combination of transport needs (the end destination) and infrastructure availability.

And Picc will be far less the "Hbf" when all north TPE services move to Vic and the Ordsall Chord opens. The service will be much more split.

 

[northwichcat]

And Picc will be far less the "Hbf" when all north TPE services move to Vic and the Ordsall Chord opens. The service will be much more split.

Only one hourly TPE service is actually moving to Victoria. Two others are being diverted via Victoria instead of via Guide Bridge after Piccadilly (once the Ordsall Chord is operational) and the Hull service and the additional Leeds service will not serve Victoria at all. However, if you are arriving from the west/north that won't stop Victoria being the most sensible station to use to change for Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Scarborough, Middlesbrough and Newcastle.

 

[Greenback]

I don't have a direct service to any airport where I live. I don't see it a as a priority to have one either. As far as I can see, Southport will still have a direct service to a central Manchester, so I'm not really sure that this is a major issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't have a direct service to any airport where I live. I don't see it a as a priority to have one either. As far as I can see, Southport will still have a direct service to a central Manchester, so I'm not really sure that this is a major issue.

Precisely my point. It's not as if it's being chopped at Wigan.

 

[trainophile]

I don't have a direct service to any airport where I live. I don't see it a as a priority to have one either. As far as I can see, Southport will still have a direct service to a central Manchester, so I'm not really sure that this is a major issue.

Given your location, I'm surprised you don't sympathise with those of us who need to be at Picc in order to connect for South Wales. Being dumped at Victoria is no use for us. I might be the only person travelling from Southport towards South Wales regularly, and if so I will just have to put up and shut up, but I bet I'm not!

Looks like I will be becoming more familiar with Wigan or Salford Crescent then . Wigan's okay actually, but SLD is pretty grim, especially in winter.

 

[fowler9]

At the end of the day Southport is slightly awkwardly positioned on the railway map and also isn't massive. There are less significantly sized urban areas than Liverpool that have more frequent inter city services to London and some pretty small places that are part of the cross country network. We can all sit here and complain that our own corner of the country doesn't have a direct service to wherever but the congestion on the railways and the shape f the country and where the capital is dictate this.