Specified train & connections meaning

[DelW]

Is there any reason why there couldn't be a system where, if the booked train is cancelled, any other TOC that accepts the ticket and conveys the passenger to their destination can keep a record of having done so and sort out the money side of things with the TOC that cancelled its train later, without burdening the passenger with matters of revenue apportionment? That is a problem internal to the industry.

Is there even any need to do that now, with all revenue being directed to DfT? I understood that TOCs are now simply paid a set fee for running the trains that DfT instruct them to run, with no revenue risk themselves.

 

[Adam Williams]

I understood that TOCs are now simply paid a set fee for running the trains that DfT instruct them to run, with no revenue risk themselves

This is correct. The only advantage would be more accurate internal accounting.

 

[FaresGuru22]

The ticket we are talking about isn't TOC-specific, though, because it allows travel on other TOCs' trains. It would be impossible to reach the destination on the ticket without travelling on other TOCs' trains.

So this ticket is not specific to LNER and Northern?

 

[Adam Williams]

So this ticket is not specific to LNER and Northern?

Where do you think the "specific to Northern" requirement is user-facing?

 

[Haywain]

with all revenue being directed to DfT?

That's not the case though. Open access operators and the devolved TOCs do not send revenue directly to DfT.

 

[Starmill]

But the first note as to what an advance ticket is; it is both a service-specific ticket and a TOC-specific ticket.

Is that inherent of the ticket, or does it apply where specified?

It feels like the meaning is in doubt…given that this thread has gone on for at least 83 posts.

The ticket I see on the app when I’m travelling gives me a specific seat for the LNER train, says it’s valid for “booked LNER train & required connecting services”, and then says “no specified seat” and “no seat reserved” on the local train.

This relies on the average person knowing that
A) you can have a reservation without actually having a seat (I believe the phrase “counted place reservation” is probably meaningless to most people)
B) that “required connections” doesn’t refer to the fact that you’re required to change trains to get to your destination. It actually means “booked connections” (a perfectly good phrase!)
C) the phrase “booked LNER train” is not an example of an “exception that proves the rule”. Just because the ticket only specifies that the LNER train is booked, doesn’t mean that the other train is not booked.

Maybe there is indeed doubt.

 

[signed]

I wouldn't do such a "favour" to a customer in your scenario, had the customer come to my Ticket Office with an expired Advance ticket, as I wouldn't want them to run the risk of being issued a penalty fare or being issued a TIR as a result of me bending the rules.

Genuine question, how would they know if it's a paper ticket? Is the original date/time before the excess encoded in the Aztec/written somewhere?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Genuine question, how would they know if it's a paper ticket? Is the original date/time before the excess encoded in the Aztec/written somewhere?

I'm presuming (maybe incorrectly!) that the date and time of issue of the excess fare would be printed on the excess ticket itself.

 

[signed]

I'm presuming (maybe incorrectly!) that the date and time of issue of the excess fare would be printed on the excess ticket itself.

Oh, excessing tickets is just the original ticket with a additional ticket attesting the excess?

I was assuming excessing worked by destroying the old ticket and giving the passenger a new one

 

[voyagerdude220]

Oh, excessing tickets is just the original ticket with a additional ticket attesting the excess?

I was assuming excessing worked by destroying the old ticket and giving the passenger a new one

Yep! Well certainly on the Ticket Office Machine I use we give the customer their "excess" fare ticket to accompany their original one.

 

[DeverseSam]

I know of one passenger making the exact journey, but in reverse from Skipton to kings cross, a few weeks back whose advance ticket was £73.80. She was 2 hours late for her train and was trying to buy a whole new ticket when I came across her. I stopped her doing this and excessed her advance - and this cost her 80 pence to turn her ticket into the flexible single (£74.60).

Would the guard have had the option to excess @Helen44’s ticket rather than charging for a new one?

 

[Starmill]

Would the guard have had the option to excess @Helen44’s ticket rather than charging for a new one?

The customer isn't entitled to amend an Advance ticket on the train. It has to be done before boarding.

 

[FaresGuru22]

Where do you think the "specific to Northern" requirement is user-facing?

In this particular case, the customer must travel on the specific LNER train and the specific Northern train shown. Thus, the ticket is specific to LNER and Northern. Disruption doesn't change that. Ticket acceptance changes that.

 

[Starmill]

In this particular case, the customer must travel on the specific LNER train and the specific Northern train shown. Thus, the ticket is specific to LNER and Northern. Disruption doesn't change that. Ticket acceptance changes that.

That's not correct, as has repeatedly been pointed out to you, because 4.3 of the Advance ticket terms specifically calls out the route field in this regard.

 

[FaresGuru22]

That's not correct, as has repeatedly been pointed out to you, because 4.3 of the Advance ticket terms specifically calls out the route field in this regard.

That is your interpretation.

 

[Starmill]

That is your interpretation.

OK so please clarify a competing interpretation. These are the words:

4.2 Where applicable, you must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).

4.3 Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to ‘Route’ on the ticket.

4.4 If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itiner ary.

 

[redreni]

OK so please clarify a competing interpretation. These are the words:
4.2 Where applicable, you must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).

4.3 Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to ‘Route’ on the ticket.

4.4 If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itiner ary.

It's notable that 4.4 doesn't say "where shown on the ticket(s) or on a valid travel itinerary in conjunction with which the tickets were issued".

"or other valid travel itinerary" is quite broad.

Of course the 'booked train only' requirement normally means the broadness of this doesn't create any flexibility, but where the 'booked train only' restriction falls away because of disruption (e.g. where the booked train doesn't run) then there wouldn't appear to be anything to prevent a passenger using appropriate connecting trains other than those shown on their original itinerary, as long as they are shown on another valid travel itinerary.

 

[Starmill]

It's notable that 4.4 doesn't say "where shown on the ticket(s) or on a valid travel itinerary in conjunction with which the tickets were issued".

"or other valid travel itinerary" is quite broad.

Of course the 'booked train only' requirement normally means the broadness of this doesn't create any flexibility, but where the 'booked train only' restriction falls away because of disruption (e.g. where the booked train doesn't run) then there wouldn't appear to be anything to prevent a passenger using appropriate connecting trains other than those shown on their original itinerary, as long as they are shown on another valid travel itinerary.

Precisely. The route would be "LNER and Northern only" if that were what were intended.

 

[miklcct]

Precisely. The route would be "LNER and Northern only" if that were what were intended.

Using an "AP Slough" ticket as example. It is clearly intended to be used on GWR trains but it doesn't have an operator restriction. If there is a disruption on GWR that it's impossible to travel on the booked service, on paper I'll be entitled to hop on an Elizabeth line train to my destination, is that right?

 

[redreni]

Using an "AP Slough" ticket as example. It is clearly intended to be used on GWR trains but it doesn't have an operator restriction. If there is a disruption on GWR that it's impossible to travel on the booked service, on paper I'll be entitled to hop on an Elizabeth line train to my destination, is that right?

Depends on the route restriction. Some are "GWR & Hull Trains only", for example, in which case the only validity on the Elizabeth Line would be by dint of the Maltese Cross.

But yes, my understanding is any TOC restriction has to be stated in the Route field on the ticket, or it doesn't exist. And if it's "TOC X & connections" then where disruption means the passenger can't follow their booked itinerary, the connections could be on any TOC on any valid route that isn't precluded by the routing restriction. There simply is no rule to say that, where it is impossible to follow the original itinerary, you have to stick as much as possible to the same route / TOCs as on the original itinerary. In my view you can take whatever is the best/fastest available route.

You do have to stick to the route and TOC restrictions in the Route field on the ticket (as opposed to on the original itinerary), unless ticket acceptance is in place or you've sought and obtained permission to take a different TOC's train and/or travel by a route that wouldn't normally be permitted. The only circumstance where I would ignore the TOC or routing restriction without gaining permission first is where I would otherwise be stranded and there was no opportunity to get prior permission, but even then I'd be tweeting the relevant TOC(s) to explain the situation (including that there was nobody to ask before I had to board) and to ask for assistance, and I would seek out on-board staff rather than wait for a ticket inspection.

 

[JonathanH]

And if it's "TOC X & connections" then where disruption means the passenger can't follow their booked itinerary, the connections could be on any TOC on any valid route that isn't precluded by the routing restriction. There simply is no rule to say that, where it is impossible to follow the original itinerary, you have to stick as much as possible to the same route / TOCs as on the original itinerary.

There isn't, but looking at BRFares in the past certain advance fares routed '& connections' haven't been valid on other particular operators, and the named operator needs to be used for the trunk part of the journey.

 

[Starmill]

Using an "AP Slough" ticket as example. It is clearly intended to be used on GWR trains but it doesn't have an operator restriction. If there is a disruption on GWR that it's impossible to travel on the booked service, on paper I'll be entitled to hop on an Elizabeth line train to my destination, is that right?

If it's route Slough you can use whatever the next service happens to be, as long as the route takes you through Slough.