(speculative) Ellesmere Port - Elton - Helsby Solution

[185]

This week, some truly gloomy stories about Ellesmere Port being one of the most depressing places on planet earth were doing the rounds in the national media. One major town centre shop on Friday said taking over off the former Wilkinson unit hasn't worked and they are leaving after just four months. The local media was equally harsh, with comments written by one (claiming to be a) resident suggesting "gaza looks better" (err.. no, it ain't that bad). A council sub-meeting did bring up (terrible) local connectivity some months ago, and I wonder if directly connecting the Port to Chester and Manchester would be a solution. The X3 bus disappeared twenty years ago.

Assuming the linespeed is made reasonable, perhaps Northern could divert their Man Vic - Chester train, call at NLW, Warrington BQ, add Frodsham, add Helsby then call at Ince & Elton, Ellesmere Port, Hooton (unadvertised reversal) and Chester.

29 mins, Helsby - Chester = 10 mins Hooton, 2 mins change ends, 7 mins to the Port, 10 mins to Helsby.
Instead of
14 mins Helsby - Chester

Remove the Earlestown stop, and gain a further four minutes.

Another solution could be to serve each way every second hour - so when say the 12pm train gets to Helsby, it turns right and goes via the Port. At Chester, it then goes straight through and runs direct to Helsby on the way back. The 1pm train at Helsby goes direct to Chester, then on departure carries on ahead to Hooton, changes ends the back via the Port. This leaves each with just one reversal at Hooton, still allowing a 15 minute layover at Chester.

Long term, a curve (yep - no easy feat) south of Hooton could remove an extra four to six minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

By far the best way to serve this line is by procuring more Merseyrail battery units/converting existing ones and running those to terminate at Helsby instead of Ellesmere Port, and withdrawing the Northern "parly". Then authorising major housing development in Ince/Elton and Helsby itself to create the passenger demand.

The very last thing we want is to make Merseyrail unreliable by adding Northern services clogging up its routes.

 

[185]

The very last thing we want is to make Merseyrail unreliable by adding Northern services clogging up its routes.

Not to sure about that...

2023: "Northern can only dream of performance figures like Merseyrail"
2024: "Merseyrail can only dream of performance figures like Northern"

A service running non-stop from the bay in Hooton down to Chester should be no problem, and likewise, a service on the 30 minute Ellesmere Port route should not be a problem.

The problem with extending Merseyrail to Helsby is it doesn't really create any new market. The Ellesmere Port to Warrington, Manchester & Chester sees a substantial town of 85,000 (inc it's adjacent districts) put onto a national rail network.

 

[Rail Quest]

29 mins, Helsby - Chester = 10 mins Hooton, 2 mins change ends, 7 mins to the Port, 10 mins to Helsby

I quite like the idea of that personally though one small issue with these timings would be that I doubt Ince & Elton would be left untouched by such a service so it may take slightly longer to add a stop there.

The Merseyrail 777 battery idea is the most likely outcome though. Not sure which method I'd prefer, albeit either changes wouldn't affect me much

 

[Bletchleyite]

2023: "Northern can only dream of performance figures like Merseyrail"
2024: "Merseyrail can only dream of performance figures like Northern"

The specific issue causing that (777 failures) is known and will eventually be solved. Whereas Northern's problems won't, because it's just too complex an operation using creaking and inadequate infrastructure.

 

[mrcheek]

On a side note, the national media appears to have discovered that articles describing a particular place as "depressing" or "the worst town in England" are excellent clickbait.

In the last week alone, they have done this for Weston-super-Mare, Falmouth, and Ellesmere Port (obviously no journalists have ever visited the excellent Canals and Waterways Museum). And those are just the ones Ive seen. I assume they will do the entire country then go round again.....

 

[zwk500]

By far the best way to serve this line is by procuring more Merseyrail battery units/converting existing ones and running those to terminate at Helsby instead of Ellesmere Port, and withdrawing the Northern "parly". Then authorising major housing development in Ince/Elton and Helsby itself to create the passenger demand.

Agree. Especially as the freight looks all but dead there's a great opportunity to give a really good useful service to an underserved line while also making a significant operating (and maintenance) saving and presenting a far more intelligible service to passengers. Even if the freight connections are preserved the presentation to passengers is far better.

Assuming the linespeed is made reasonable, perhaps Northern could divert their Man Vic - Chester train, call at NLW, Warrington BQ, add Frodsham, add Helsby then call at Ince & Elton, Ellesmere Port, Hooton (unadvertised reversal) and Chester.

No, keep Merseyrail as separate as possible. giving the remaining half over to a metro operation is by far the better outcome for all. 15- or 30-minute frequency to Liverpool itself (not including the Lime St option at Helsby), easy cross-platform interchange towards Warrington/Manchester, and two options to Chester, from where Crewe, Wrexham, Shrewsbury, Birmingham, Bangor, etc are all available.
Merseyrail is kept operationally separate (apart from the odd freight/engineering train) from the rest of the network which keeps it's high-frequency services on time, and Northern can get rid of a 'limited service' line and this then provides a more user-friendly network to their passengers.

If the freight is gone then Hooton and Helsby might be simplified further in their layouts which could give opportunity for installing TCB signalling on the Frodsham line (or at least a couple of IBs to raise capacity).

 

[willgreen]

Especially as the freight looks all but dead

I am very much on board with the rest of your argument but there are several daily trains to the glassworks at Ince and Elton (not that these couldn't be pathed around).

 

[The Prisoner]

Problem is that geographically EP is on a line that doesn’t give itself for connectivity.

Comments asking to extend the 777s to Helsby…..a village of under 5k with one service an hour to Manchester and one to……Liverpool (as of today).

The northern service from Chester to Leeds typically runs fast from Chester to Warrington, so they aren’t going to start stopping at Helsby and sending it via EP and Hooton as it wouldn’t reach its turnaround time to get back to Leeds, meaning you would need another unit.

There is a very decent bus service from EP to Chester station and it’s well connected to Liverpool. Given the random nature of the line east of the port there won’t be any improvements any time soon.

 

[Meerkat]

By far the best way to serve this line is by procuring more Merseyrail battery units/converting existing ones and running those to terminate at Helsby instead of Ellesmere Port, and withdrawing the Northern "parly". Then authorising major housing development in Ince/Elton and Helsby itself to create the passenger demand.

The very last thing we want is to make Merseyrail unreliable by adding Northern services clogging up its routes.

Not sure where you would put major housing development in Helsby, and is Ince/Elton restricted by the refinery safety zone (or whatever it is called)?
However I vaguely recall that they are creating a science park on the site, and that could be a source of incoming passengers.

 

[8A Rail]

I am very much on board with the rest of your argument but there are several daily trains to the glassworks at Ince and Elton (not that these couldn't be pathed around).

One daily train each early morning, three / four times a week, delivering crushed glass or sand operated by DB Cargo and Freightliner respectively. There are provisional plans by 'Encirc' to commence a service delivering products to a couple parts of the country but at early stages though. The land for the extension of the sidings has been set aside already but it is a wait and see situation. Fingers cross.

As for the general speculation thread, you definitely do NOT want any NON Merseyrail passengers trains on the Hooton to Chester leg, as that will just cause numerous issues. Best bet is extending the present service to and from Helsby.

 

[Djgr]

The fundamental issue with Ellesmere Port town centre is, as with many other towns, all activity has shifted away from it, in this case to Cheshire Oaks (which is very busy mainly with out-of-towners).

Improved rail services are not really that relevant here and will do little to revive the town centre.

For safety reasons, I can't see any new housing in Ince or Elton.

There is new housing in Helsby but can't see why they would want to head into Ellesmere Port in preference to Chester, Liverpool and Manchester

 

[Krokodil]

Comments asking to extend the 777s to Helsby…..a village of under 5k with one service an hour to Manchester and one to……Liverpool (as of today).

As things stand there are passengers who travel between (for example) Warrington and Ellesmere Port and currently have to go the long way around. Halving the journey time and reducing the changes required from two to one will undoubtedly improve passenger figures. Northern's Leeds services do call during the peak.

 

[willgreen]

One daily train each early morning, three / four times a week, delivering crushed glass or sand operated by DB Cargo and Freightliner respectively.

Including loco moves etc it does add up to more - I agree it’s not a massive freight operation but it is something that needs to be planned around if a passenger service were to be introduced. Of course such an obstacle is not insurmountable (see for example oil trains to Jarrow via the Tyne and Wear Metro).

 

[Bevan Price]

As things stand there are passengers who travel between (for example) Warrington and Ellesmere Port and currently have to go the long way around. Halving the journey time and reducing the changes required from two to one will undoubtedly improve passenger figures. Northern's Leeds services do call during the peak.

But one has to wonder - unless they work, or have friends/relatives in Ellesmere Port, why would anyone in Warrington want to go to Ellesmere Port when they can go to Chester, Liverpool or Manchester - all of which have better shopping & entertainment options.

 

[Krokodil]

But one has to wonder - unless they work, or have friends/relatives in Ellesmere Port, why would anyone in Warrington want to go to Ellesmere Port when they can go to Chester, Liverpool or Manchester - all of which have better shopping & entertainment options.

It could be the other way around - people in Ellesmere Port wanting to go to Manchester or North Wales for whatever reason (including employment).

 

[8A Rail]

Including loco moves etc it does add up to more - I agree it’s not a massive freight operation but it is something that needs to be planned around if a passenger service were to be introduced. Of course such an obstacle is not insurmountable (see for example oil trains to Jarrow via the Tyne and Wear Metro).

What loco moves? The loco stays with the train in order to pull it forward as it unloads. Once it is unloaded and empty, it either heads back to Arpley or Crewe BH. So one in and one out daily is not such a big thing even if a half hourly / hourly service to and from Helsby was ever introduced.

 

[Djgr]

It could be the other way around - people in Ellesmere Port wanting to go to Manchester or North Wales for whatever reason (including employment).

Ellesmere Port station's future could be as a Park and Ride, being so close to the M53. There is indeed commuter traffic into Manchester, as can be seen by the number of cars parked at Helsby all day.

The location of Ellesmere Port Station for inbound traffic is not great, given the spread out nature of employment locations and the nuking of the traditional town centre for retail etc.

 

[willgreen]

What loco moves? The loco stays with the train in order to pull it forward as it unloads. Once it is unloaded and empty, it either heads back to Arpley or Crewe BH. So one in and one out daily is not such a big thing even if a half hourly / hourly service to and from Helsby was ever introduced.

Fair enough - I wasn’t reading RTT right and hadn’t realised the Freightliner trains ran on different days to the DB ones. Cheers