[Speculative] What will charter stock look like in decades to come?

[renegademaster]

Will class 50s be pulling slidey door Mark 4s? Will dolled up voyages be running pullman services, or will things look not much different from what they are now?

 

[Blindtraveler]

The whole wcrc fiasco has I think set a bit of a precedent and charter or heritage stock is going to be far closer scrutinised in future
I think the decision to scrap a whole ton of MK4 coaches was unbelievably short-sighted and extremely stupid and that the whole lot or rather the ones that survived after various bangs and crashes in service should have been retained and as you say, be pulled by whatever the hot heritage loco of the day happens to be
It's quite conceivable that things like voyages could have engines stripped out except for a little generator set to make things like hotel services and catering work and the same could be said for a number of other unit types
Complete pipe dream, but as this is a speculative thread, I'd love to see a couple of hundred loco hauled carriages built especially for tourist and charter operations and put into a pool to hire
We could boost capacity on everything from sports day specials to Edinburgh festivals to Scottish and Welsh scenic line, summer services as well as the excursion market. Be it bashing trips or Premier dining on the Pullman or Cambrian mountain Express or whatever

 

[renegademaster]

The whole wcrc fiasco has I think set a bit of a precedent and charter or heritage stock is going to be far closer scrutinised in future
I think the decision to scrap a whole ton of MK4 coaches was unbelievably short-sighted and extremely stupid and that the whole lot or rather the ones that survived after various bangs and crashes in service should have been retained and as you say, be pulled by whatever the hot heritage loco of the day happens to be
It's quite conceivable that things like voyages could have engines stripped out except for a little generator set to make things like hotel services and catering work and the same could be said for a number of other unit types
Complete pipe dream, but as this is a speculative thread, I'd love to see a couple of hundred loco hauled carriages built especially for tourist and charter operations and put into a pool to hire
We could boost capacity on everything from sports day specials to Edinburgh festivals to Scottish and Welsh scenic line, summer services as well as the excursion market. Be it bashing trips or Premier dining on the Pullman or Cambrian mountain Express or whatever

They'll be lots of TPE carridges free soon. Not sure how easy they will be the Jerryrig to an old locomotive though. The Chiltern Mark 3s would make good charter stock too

 

[JonathanH]

They'll be lots of TPE carridges free soon.

Way out of the price league for charter operations.

The Chiltern Mark 3s would make good charter stock too

Other sets of Mk3s (other than the Midland Pullman) haven't made good charter stock.

Complete pipe dream, but as this is a speculative thread, I'd love to see a couple of hundred loco hauled carriages built especially for tourist and charter operations and put into a pool to hire

Who do you think would meet the cost of this? Speculative or not, there just isn't money to deliver your dream.

We could boost capacity on everything from sports day specials to Edinburgh festivals to Scottish and Welsh scenic line, summer services as well as the excursion market. Be it bashing trips or Premier dining on the Pullman or Cambrian mountain Express or whatever

It is just easier to ensure there is capacity on the normal service trains to deal with this. SWR were able to deal with extra trains for Southampton football supporters without charter stock today. GWR will deal with Glastonbury in June. It is usually just a matter of diverting resources to the right place.

The charter market exists on the apparent benevolence of a number of individuals. It isn't exactly big business and most likely never will be.

 

[randyrippley]

If only they'd kept the 442 fleet........

 

[Rail Quest]

The whole wcrc fiasco has I think set a bit of a precedent and charter or heritage stock is going to be far closer scrutinised in future

From what I understand about the WCRC issue, their issues with CDL are mostly quite separate to the use of MK1 stock on the mainline generally. The ORR only started taking significant actions against WCRC because they had no plans to fit CDL to their stock and the operating arrangements they had made to accommodate an exemption were not being followed. Operators like LSL remain completely unaffected by the current WCRC situation as they have CDL-fitted MK1s.

The only reason the status-quo may change as I see it are the following potential scenarios:
1) The ORR or other regulator/governing body deems MK1 carriages inherently unsafe for all mainline use.
2) The costs of maintaining MK1 stock becomes greater than the cost of purchasing and maintaining alternatives (MK3/MK4 carriages). Perhaps this will become a greater possibility the older MK1s get, though with barely any MK3s or 4s left now, the chances of a significant replacement, to me, seems unlikely.

In short, I don't think much will change in the next few decades. Perhaps really long-term (say, beyond the next fifty years), the cost of maintaining the current heritage diesels/steam will lead to MUs on novelty pullman and tourist services, though this would probably mean the loss of the enthusiast touring industry.

 

[43096]

Other sets of Mk3s (other than the Midland Pullman) haven't made good charter stock.

By what criteria are you judging that?

 

[43096]

I think the decision to scrap a whole ton of MK4 coaches was unbelievably short-sighted and extremely stupid

They were available for sale and no-one bought bar TfW. What were you expecting Eversholt to do?

 

[JonathanH]

By what criteria are you judging that?

That they don't seem to have found a market that pays for them to continue to operate, although I accept there are other factors at play. (The 125 preservation group may also be a fair exception, as thinking about it is the scot-rail push pull set.)

 

[Krokodil]

Other sets of Mk3s (other than the Midland Pullman) haven't made good charter stock.

Haven't they? Or is it just that the Intercity brand isn't as strong as the Midland Pullman one? The former makes you think of business travel in the 1980s. Comfortable maybe, but not luxurious. The latter is the continuation of a longstanding brand which many "normals" will associate with luxury travel. Which one are you going to treat your mother to for her 70th birthday? In the same way that the Northern Belle Mk2s bring in more money than the blue & grey Mk2s WCRC is currently using.

That Nanking blue livery does stand out too, which probably helps. Whether Mk1s/2s/3s/4s/5s are used is pretty irrelevant in my view.

 

[renegademaster]

) The ORR or other regulator/governing body deems MK1 carriages inherently unsafe for all mainline use.

30ish years ago no CDL was considered safe and the crash worthiness derogation gets reviewed I'm 2025(?) IRRC , I don't think its unthinkable the standards change again. That the standards stay the same forever more unlikely. And even if they do rust will win eventually

 

[Kite159]

The whole wcrc fiasco has I think set a bit of a precedent and charter or heritage stock is going to be far closer scrutinised in future
I think the decision to scrap a whole ton of MK4 coaches was unbelievably short-sighted and extremely stupid and that the whole lot or rather the ones that survived after various bangs and crashes in service should have been retained and as you say, be pulled by whatever the hot heritage loco of the day happens to be
It's quite conceivable that things like voyages could have engines stripped out except for a little generator set to make things like hotel services and catering work and the same could be said for a number of other unit types
Complete pipe dream, but as this is a speculative thread, I'd love to see a couple of hundred loco hauled carriages built especially for tourist and charter operations and put into a pool to hire
We could boost capacity on everything from sports day specials to Edinburgh festivals to Scottish and Welsh scenic line, summer services as well as the excursion market. Be it bashing trips or Premier dining on the Pullman or Cambrian mountain Express or whatever

The big issue with charter operators using Mk4 coaches is the route clearance of them. Just look at the work TfW/NR had to do on the route from Cardiff to Manchester/Holyhead to make sure the Mk4 coaches don't cause issues. Compared to Mk3 coaches, the Mk4s have had a mostly restricted life to the ECML. Mk3 coaches have more limited clearances compared to Mk1/Mk2s due to being longer. I would imagine anybody suggesting using the TPE Mk5 coaches will probably hit a similar barrier, unless they want to run a charter operation from Liverpool to Scarborough with the occasional trip to Cleethorpes.

Ideal world would be a Mk2 coach with better AC (or retro-fitted with windows which can be opened to allow a better air-flow, not like the LT 4TC set which has restricted opening on the windows so they are not the best on a warm day). Maybe with the IC70 seats ripped out and replaced by something more suitable for the modern market, giving legroom (as the legroom on the Mk2 set used by Riveria is crap)

 

[JonathanH]

Maybe with the IC70 seats ripped out and replaced by something more suitable for the modern market, giving legroom (as the legroom on the Mk2 set used by Riveria is crap)

Whilst IC70 seats aren't everyone's favourite, putting in modern seats would just end up with people complaining about 'tombstones' or 'ironing boards' and change the atmosphere of the Mk2 coaches. I doubt there is money on the table for a seating refit in any case, even if it was done with seat frames taken out of something being withdrawn.

What are the current candidate seats? Would Chapman seats out of the TfW 150s feel right in a Mk2f?

 

[StephenHunter]

Whilst IC70 seats aren't everyone's favourite, putting in modern seats would just end up with people complaining about 'tombstones' or 'ironing boards' and change the atmosphere of the Mk2 coaches.

I agree; the Pendolino seat I was on when I came back from The One Way Whizzo were worse than the IC70s.

GBR might end up commissioning a set of units for charter operations.

 

[JonathanH]

GBR might end up commissioning a set of units for charter operations.

Might it? What for?

Is that in the same vein as saying that GBR might make all the train fleets longer where there are current capacity issues?

 

[StephenHunter]

Might it? What for?

Spot hire for football matches, other irregular operations. Like BR had back in the day.

 

[JonathanH]

Spot hire for football matches, other irregular operations. Like BR had back in the day.

BR didn't organise brand new trains for that though. At best it retained rolling stock that was otherwise surplus to requirements.

 

[StephenHunter]

BR didn't organise brand new trains for that though. At best it retained rolling stock that was otherwise surplus to requirements.

Fair enough, that's a better option.

 

[Rail Quest]

30ish years ago no CDL was considered safe and the crash worthiness derogation gets reviewed I'm 2025(?) IRRC , I don't think its unthinkable the standards change again. That the standards stay the same forever more unlikely. And even if they do rust will win eventually

Fair point. I think the last point there is where I personally see the use of MK1s ending as outlined, though no idea how long it'll be before that happens haha... guess its like how longs a piece of string

 

[Krokodil]

Spot hire for football matches, other irregular operations. Like BR had back in the day.

BR (and the pre-nationalisation companies) used old, fully-depreciated stock for such marginal work. With the exception of coaches for use by the Royal Family (even those are secondhand these days) they didn't commission new coaches for occasional use.

 

[JonathanH]

BR (and the pre-nationalisation companies) used old, fully-depreciated stock for such marginal work. With the exception of coaches for use by the Royal Family (even those are secondhand these days) they didn't commission new coaches for occasional use.

I guess the modern-day equivalent would be buying redundant stock off the ROSCOs for a nominal amount and retaining it for occasional use, but it really isn't clear what would be appropriate and for what purpose on the current (or future) railway. It is still unlikely that the railway could do this.

 

[Sun Chariot]

20 metre length carriage.
10-coach set (based on typical charter rake).
Mobility-accessible toilets.
Operating/safety compliance.
Available now and for 20 years hence.
Problem solved.

I give you...
A squadron of unused class 701s, hauled by compatible GBRf 47/69.

 

[Krokodil]

I guess the modern-day equivalent would be buying redundant stock off the ROSCOs for a nominal amount and retaining it for occasional use, but it really isn't clear what would be appropriate and for what purpose on the current (or future) railway. It is still unlikely that the railway could do this.

Best to leave that sort of thing to Riviera et al. I'm pretty sure that the situation is the same in Europe now, charter stock is generally owned by private companies or preservation organisations.

 

[paul1609]

Ideal world would be a Mk2 coach with better AC (or retro-fitted with windows which can be opened to allow a better air-flow, not like the LT 4TC set which has restricted opening on the windows so they are not the best on a warm day). Maybe with the IC70 seats ripped out and replaced by something more suitable for the modern market, giving legroom (as the legroom on the Mk2 set used by Riveria is crap)

I havent had much to do with Mk2 rolling stock but from what people tell me certainly in the preservation world its very likely that Mk1 stock will out last Mk2 stock because the hybrid construction of Mk2 stock is very difficult to repair once degredation reaches a certain point wheras with MK1 there are now parts available to rebuild the whole things. the problem with any sort of ac fitted stock is that ac works best if its working continuously but sadly not if it only works 1 day and then is left powered down in a siding for a month. You then get problems with the refrigerant migrating to different parts of the system, the system cooling off and shrinking allowing minor leaks etc., etc.

 

[Pete_uk]

I've often wondered how long Mk1 and early Mk2s will last.

 

[Kite159]

...

I havent had much to do with Mk2 rolling stock but from what people tell me certainly in the preservation world its very likely that Mk1 stock will out last Mk2 stock because the hybrid construction of Mk2 stock is very difficult to repair once degredation reaches a certain point wheras with MK1 there are now parts available to rebuild the whole things. the problem with any sort of ac fitted stock is that ac works best if its working continuously but sadly not if it only works 1 day and then is left powered down in a siding for a month. You then get problems with the refrigerant migrating to different parts of the system, the system cooling off and shrinking allowing minor leaks etc., etc.

And I suspect the AC system was designed to work with the sort of AC gas which has been outlawed (similar to some 158s & 166s).

 

[paul1609]

...

And I suspect the AC system was designed to work with the sort of AC gas which has been outlawed (similar to some 158s & 166s).

If you are talking about a change from R12 to R134a it should cause a loss of efficiency of around 10 to 15% which should only become apparent on really hot days, obviously if your system wasnt very well designed in the first place that can be a cliff edge. maintenance of ac is probably more intensive than anything that railway carriage and wagon had to deal with before. the technician needs to be good at trade skills, wiring, pipe manufacture that sort of thing but the theory behind the plant and as a consequence fault finding tends to be at degree level. Theres only a small pool of people who are good at both. Outside the railway this is becoming rapidly apparent with EV repairs and Air Source Heat Pumps where the design of maybe 90% air to water systems under government grants are awful.

 

[Snow1964]

There is of course potential for lots of rakes for footex, holiday extras, cruise ship feeds etc. There are

I don't think any existing stock that is likely to come surplus will be ideal.

If it was me, would build a modern version of a BR mk2a.
What I mean is to go anywhere restriction C1 (so 20m long)
Open saloons with seating bays that line up with windows
Perhaps one pair of double sliding doors, near middle
To modern crashworthiness standards
Simple bogies (even secondhand trailer bogies from EMUs etc)
No expensive aircon, simple heaters and hopper windows
Comfortable seats for 6+ hour journeys
Luggage stacks
Something that doesn't mind being parked up without being connected to a power supply.

Form them up into sets about 220-240m long holding about 600.
Remember the early mk2 TSOs generally held 64 in 8 bays of 8 which worked well.

 

[JonathanH]

There is of course potential for lots of rakes for footex, holiday extras, cruise ship feeds etc. There are

In an ideal world the scope for those would just exist within the rolling stock used every day.

What has been lost is the ability to use commuter stock to form those kind of extras because of traction knowledge, higher speeds for long distance trains, and the nature of the suburban rolling stock.

It doesn't need a special charter operation being set up to run 12-car 350 formations from Manchester to London for a football match but it clearly can't be done on the current railway, and the 390s would run quicker.

GWR reallocate 80x units from Cardiff services to go to Cheltenham and Glastonbury. That is how the railway copes with additional loads.

A fantasy about dedicated excursion stock isn't the first priority for the railway. Finding ways of efficiently reallocating stock around the network for events is rather more realistic.

 

[HSTEd]

How big is the charter stock market?

How much capital expenditure could it be reasonably expected to support?

It seems unlikely there will be significant quantities of hauled stock available for future use (after being retired), so unless EMU conversions are undertaken the available stock will dwindle to nothing.