Speed of progress on accessible information

[py_megapixel]

I've spoken before about how far behind the UK is when it comes to on-board information systems. It has been standard for years in the likes of Germany and the Netherlands, as well is in London, that buses are capable of automatically announcing upcoming stops. Some operators in the UK have made an effort to roll it out. But the vast, vast majority of buses remain without these systems, which for some passengers are essential for them to be able to complete a journey.

This should be changing as a result of the new accessible information regulations, which will effectively them to be installed. However, I write this from a bus in Sheffield, where there is seemingly very little progress in getting buses compliant with the regulations. Here is a summary of the situation in Sheffield as far as I'm aware:

• The new electric buses on the free city centre circulars have the equipment installed and working.
  
  
• Stagecoach has it installed and working on all of the relatively few buses that are new enough to have been delivered with it from the start, but nothing installed on any older buses yet. (There were a few Enviro 400s with an old system that hardly ever worked, was only capable of announcing a few routes, and doesn't fully comply with the regulations anyway, but I think those have all been transferred out of Sheffield now).
  
  
• First has (or had - they seem to move buses around the country a lot!):
  • a batch of 13 Wright Streetlites transferred from Portsmouth, which are new enough that they should be compliant now. The equipment is installed but I've never seen it working - it usually shows either Portsmouth-related information or nothing at all.
  • a batch of 19 67-reg Wright Streetdecks that came from Leeds, which will need to comply from this October. They do have the equipment installed but I've only ever seen it actually work once or twice.
  • about 50 Streetdecks and Streetlites which will need to comply from this October and don't yet have anything installed.
  • one or two Wright Geminis which I think came from Leicester. They have dot matrix displays fitted but not working and as far as I can see they don't have speakers for audio announcements.
  • a few buses with the same old system as Stagecoach, but again I think those have been transferred out.
    
• Hulleys has nothing at all despite having a few new vehicles that need to comply.
  
  
• TM Travel doesn't have any vehicles that currently need to comply.

It can't just be me who thinks this is rather underwhelming progress, considering the technology has been available for so long, and especially in the case of big groups like First not being compliant, it does make me wonder whether they should have been a bit more prepared!

Is there something I'm missing here that has held up the pace of introduction, or are they just operating in the knowledge that strict enforcement is unlikely?
And in the case of buses that need to comply from later this year, are they just running it right up to the deadline for some reason, or is it likely come October that there will still be dozens of buses in service not complying with the regulations?
Also is this a nationwide issue or are other places doing better at becoming compliant ahead of the deadline?

 

[computerSaysNo]

For context, the regulations I believe are being referred to are readable here: Providing accessible information onboard local bus and coach services

 

[Cesarcollie]

I've spoken before about how far behind the UK is when it comes to on-board information systems. It has been standard for years in the likes of Germany and the Netherlands, as well is in London, that buses are capable of automatically announcing upcoming stops. Some operators in the UK have made an effort to roll it out. But the vast, vast majority of buses remain without these systems, which for some passengers are essential for them to be able to complete a journey.

This should be changing as a result of the new accessible information regulations, which will effectively them to be installed. However, I write this from a bus in Sheffield, where there is seemingly very little progress in getting buses compliant with the regulations. Here is a summary of the situation in Sheffield as far as I'm aware:

• The new electric buses on the free city centre circulars have the equipment installed and working.
  
  
• Stagecoach has it installed and working on all of the relatively few buses that are new enough to have been delivered with it from the start, but nothing installed on any older buses yet. (There were a few Enviro 400s with an old system that hardly ever worked, was only capable of announcing a few routes, and doesn't fully comply with the regulations anyway, but I think those have all been transferred out of Sheffield now).
  
  
• First has (or had - they seem to move buses around the country a lot!):
  • a batch of 13 Wright Streetlites transferred from Portsmouth, which are new enough that they should be compliant now. The equipment is installed but I've never seen it working - it usually shows either Portsmouth-related information or nothing at all.
  • a batch of 19 67-reg Wright Streetdecks that came from Leeds, which will need to comply from this October. They do have the equipment installed but I've only ever seen it actually work once or twice.
  • about 50 Streetdecks and Streetlites which will need to comply from this October and don't yet have anything installed.
  • one or two Wright Geminis which I think came from Leicester. They have dot matrix displays fitted but not working and as far as I can see they don't have speakers for audio announcements.
  • a few buses with the same old system as Stagecoach, but again I think those have been transferred out.
• Hulleys has nothing at all despite having a few new vehicles that need to comply.
  
  
• TM Travel doesn't have any vehicles that currently need to comply.

It can't just be me who thinks this is rather underwhelming progress, considering the technology has been available for so long, and especially in the case of big groups like First not being compliant, it does make me wonder whether they should have been a bit more prepared!

Is there something I'm missing here that has held up the pace of introduction, or are they just operating in the knowledge that strict enforcement is unlikely?
And in the case of buses that need to comply from later this year, are they just running it right up to the deadline for some reason, or is it likely come October that there will still be dozens of buses in service not complying with the regulations?
Also is this a nationwide issue or are other places doing better at becoming compliant ahead of the deadline?

There are issues with equipment supply, and particularly fitting. Plus the back office work of programming is a huge challenging especially for smaller operator. Legislation was introduced at relatively short notice with tight timescales. And most operators will still be trying to get buses due to be fitted last October working - never mind stuff not due until October 25!

 

[WM Bus]

I think all services at Birmingham Central now have next stop announcements where the equipment is working on newer platinum vehicles.
Including the 14 & 94/95.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

Fair play to first Glasgow who seem to have working systems on pretty much everything apart Gemini's , street lights and some e300s.

 

[inklin]

I wrote in the Stagecoach South East thread the other day about this. It's not doing well at all down here!

As soon as the legislation for post 2019 vehicles came into effect in October 2024 the newer Solo SR's and E400 MMC's with these systems fitted were working, with the exception of some glitches where the voice was often truncated when announcing the route number/destination.

Gradually I noticed that the systems were either entirely turned off, or if they were working it was with one of either audio or visual, but quite often not both. So I assume that now they are operating non compliant? If I understand correctly there is no further leeway for 2019 or newer vehicles.

 

[JD2168]

I've spoken before about how far behind the UK is when it comes to on-board information systems. It has been standard for years in the likes of Germany and the Netherlands, as well is in London, that buses are capable of automatically announcing upcoming stops. Some operators in the UK have made an effort to roll it out. But the vast, vast majority of buses remain without these systems, which for some passengers are essential for them to be able to complete a journey.

This should be changing as a result of the new accessible information regulations, which will effectively them to be installed. However, I write this from a bus in Sheffield, where there is seemingly very little progress in getting buses compliant with the regulations. Here is a summary of the situation in Sheffield as far as I'm aware:

• The new electric buses on the free city centre circulars have the equipment installed and working.
  
  
• Stagecoach has it installed and working on all of the relatively few buses that are new enough to have been delivered with it from the start, but nothing installed on any older buses yet. (There were a few Enviro 400s with an old system that hardly ever worked, was only capable of announcing a few routes, and doesn't fully comply with the regulations anyway, but I think those have all been transferred out of Sheffield now).
  
  
• First has (or had - they seem to move buses around the country a lot!):
  • a batch of 13 Wright Streetlites transferred from Portsmouth, which are new enough that they should be compliant now. The equipment is installed but I've never seen it working - it usually shows either Portsmouth-related information or nothing at all.
  • a batch of 19 67-reg Wright Streetdecks that came from Leeds, which will need to comply from this October. They do have the equipment installed but I've only ever seen it actually work once or twice.
  • about 50 Streetdecks and Streetlites which will need to comply from this October and don't yet have anything installed.
  • one or two Wright Geminis which I think came from Leicester. They have dot matrix displays fitted but not working and as far as I can see they don't have speakers for audio announcements.
  • a few buses with the same old system as Stagecoach, but again I think those have been transferred out.
    
• Hulleys has nothing at all despite having a few new vehicles that need to comply.
  
  
• TM Travel doesn't have any vehicles that currently need to comply.

It can't just be me who thinks this is rather underwhelming progress, considering the technology has been available for so long, and especially in the case of big groups like First not being compliant, it does make me wonder whether they should have been a bit more prepared!

Is there something I'm missing here that has held up the pace of introduction, or are they just operating in the knowledge that strict enforcement is unlikely?
And in the case of buses that need to comply from later this year, are they just running it right up to the deadline for some reason, or is it likely come October that there will still be dozens of buses in service not complying with the regulations?
Also is this a nationwide issue or are other places doing better at becoming compliant ahead of the deadline?

The Leeds StreetDeck’s are scrolling the routes on the screens but no speakers, 37472-37474 are the only First B9TL’s with the old system fitted, the E400’s all went to Worcester.

The Glasgow Gemini’s with screens fitted has not worked since moving to South Yorkshire, only thing I seen shown is Ferrograph OVD on them.

The Stagecoach E400’s with screens are all now at Manchester with Metroline.

 

[Kath123]

Hi

I’m visually impaired and this is an important issue for me. The audio announcements help me a lot when available but unfortunately they aren’t available yet on my local bus service which is the 51 Cavalier Way to Abbey Manor service in Yeovil. I’ve asked Buses Of Somerset (part of First Bus) when they are likely to be implemented but get no concrete response. The only service in my local area of Yeovil which ive heard audio stop announcements on is sometimes when I travel on the 376 service which is ran by First West Of England and goes from Yeovil to Bristol.

I’ve also travelled quite a bit in the Bath and Bristol areas by bus and am disappointed the audio is often not available. The services I travel on and I’ve experienced it sometimes being available on are the 1 and 8 Bristol services, X39 Bristol to Bath service and the 374 Bristol to Taunton service - these are First Bus services. I’ve also used the Stagecoach 71 service in Bristol quite a few times now but only experienced audio announcements being available on it once or twice.

When I board buses in Yeovil I know that unless it is the 376 there is no point in me checking with the driver when I board whether the bus has working audio announcements but if I board in the Bristol, Bath and Wells areas I try and remember to check with the driver when boarding whether the facility is available/working however the most common response I get from drivers is ‘I’m not sure’ - this isn’t very helpful and the response baffles me a bit? As this is an accessibility feature surely drivers should be checking at the start of the shift whether it is available?

Also I don’t want to take over this thread as it is not mine but on three occasions when I’ve used the X39 Bristol to Bath (or vice versa) service in recent months and there has been audio stop announcements I’ve noticed that it only announced some of the stops especially not announcing them in the Newbridge area of Bath. If anyone knows why this is I’d be grateful.

Finally I visited Birmingham and Manchester in recent months and was very disappointed during my visit not to encounter audio stop announcements on the buses I caught there. I think in Birmingham I caught the 47 National Express West Midlands service (but can’t be absolutely sure) and in Manchester the 50 service from East Didsbury to Salford Quays which I think is ran by the Bee Network.

I understand it’s a task to get the equipment and set up the audio but I think by October 2026 most buses are expected by law to have it so surely it would help operators to get ahead with it now? I fear in Somerset it will only be fully implemented when it is a legal requirement.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...o-make-britains-buses-accessible-for-everyone

 

[urban]

Very few services in Liverpool have the next stop announcements - I believe it's only whatever is legally required (i.e. newer buses). Lots of older buses do have the screens to display them, but they either show CCTV or are blank.
The Arriva system uses text-to-speech and has some dodgy pronunciations but is mostly ok. The stop names are pretty useless though - most stops are named after random side streets nobody has heard of, even when there is a well-known landmark nearby.

It's quite ridiculous how far behind most of the country is on this - it's been standard in London and much of Europe for going on 20 years. It's such a simple but important thing for accessibility and the bus companies have had to be forced into providing it through legislation.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Very few services in Liverpool have the next stop announcements - I believe it's only whatever is legally required (i.e. newer buses). Lots of older buses do have the screens to display them, but they either show CCTV or are blank.
The Arriva system uses text-to-speech and has some dodgy pronunciations but is mostly ok. The stop names are pretty useless though - most stops are named after random side streets nobody has heard of, even when there is a well-known landmark nearby.

It's quite ridiculous how far behind most of the country is on this - it's been standard in London and much of Europe for going on 20 years. It's such a simple but important thing for accessibility and the bus companies have had to be forced into providing it through legislation.

But it’s not simple! It’s very easy to say it is……..

 

[TheTallOne]

Is there an option to get next stop messages through a mobile phone? E.g. something over Bluetooth or mobile data?

It'd be great if that was an option as it could then be played into my ear phones - much easier than hearing an automatic announcement over the other noises on the bus (people talking loudly, playing radios etc).

 

[urban]

But it’s not simple! It’s very easy to say it is……..

For smaller operators perhaps it's not. But for a huge multi-national company like Arriva it should've been standard years ago, as it has been in London since 2005.

 

[noddingdonkey]

How are those operators who are not complying getting away with it?

In my neck of the woods, none of First Huddersfield's fleet seem to be compliant, they have a few Streetdecks with screens that just show a Hannover Displays screensaver, and a few recent transfers that show adverts for First tickets and services at the other end of the country.

I would have thought Bee Network might have fared better, but when the 184 does produce a newer vehicle there haven't been announcements or information.

Is this one of those pieces of policy with no regulator, somebody will have to take them to court to get any enforcement?

 

[JKP]

My only experience of audio has been on Guernsey where the announcements were so faint I struggled to hear them.

In Edinburgh some buses are fitted with screens and have announcements but these often give little warning to passengers where stops are close together.

 

[Deerfold]

In the backwater of Keighley I see and hear next stop announcements on about half my journeys. All the longer distance routes have it when the right buses are used ob them.

 

[inklin]

How are those operators who are not complying getting away with it?

In my neck of the woods, none of First Huddersfield's fleet seem to be compliant, they have a few Streetdecks with screens that just show a Hannover Displays screensaver, and a few recent transfers that show adverts for First tickets and services at the other end of the country.

I would have thought Bee Network might have fared better, but when the 184 does produce a newer vehicle there haven't been announcements or information.

Is this one of those pieces of policy with no regulator, somebody will have to take them to court to get any enforcement?

It would appear that it is regulated, but there is a process where you must complain to the operator first, probably hard for an individual to get it to go further than that! Here is what the DfT Article linked above by @computerSaysNo says:

Complaints and enforcement​

Non-compliance with the regulations will be identified in 2 ways:

• complaints from individuals or their representative
• the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) enforcement

Individual and representative complaints​

Individuals or representatives may complain about a service with an issue they believe is not compliant with the regulations. Typically, this process should occur in the following order.

1. Operator complaint​

An individual may raise this complaint to the bus or coach operator, where the operator should respond within 14 days of the complaint submission with acknowledgement and next steps. You should provide clear information to passengers on how they can complain onboard.

2. Bus Users UK and London TravelWatch arbitration​

Where a complaint has not been responded to within 14 days, or the complainant feels that the issue is unresolved, they can refer it to Bus Users UK for complaints concerning services outside London, and London TravelWatch for services within London. Bus Users UK or London TravelWatch will investigate the complaint and decide on the next steps. Where there appears to be a sustained and significant issue, potentially including deliberate or negligent non-compliance, cases will be referred to DVSA for further investigation.

3.DVSA investigation​

DVSA will investigate cases that are reported to it, where further information will be sought out as required. If the case concerns sustained, deliberate or negligent non-compliance, or it is otherwise serious in nature, DVSA may escalate it to the Office of the Traffic Commissioner.

4.Traffic Commissioner​

Traffic Commissioners are responsible for the ultimate regulation of respective legal requirements. Operators can appeal the Traffic Commissioner’s decision to the Upper Tribunal.

DVSA investigations​

As well as looking into complaints raised by individuals or their representatives, DVSA may initiate investigations into operator compliance with the regulations based on their own intelligence. Typically, these investigations would focus on sustained, negligent or deliberate non-compliance.

I was on one of the 73 plate Enviro 400 MMC's again today, and the audio was functioning, however the displays appeared to be turned off.

 

[Bornin1980s]

I don't understand, we have had the tech for at least 20 years, what are the technical hurdles?

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

In a technical sense 20 years is a very long time but also a very short time, i.e. we had digital camera technology since the early 1960s yet it was the 2000s before they became mainstream. I imagine the issue is parts as there has been a huge spike in computer parts the last year or so with many items including RAM and solid state drives doubling in price.

 

[noddingdonkey]

True, but as it's been implemented on every London bus since 2009 I don't think there can be any argument that it's an emerging niche technology.

 

[computerSaysNo]

True, but as it's been implemented on every London bus since 2009 I don't think there can be any argument that it's an emerging niche technology.

As a hobby I started to write an app for Android tablets which would use GPS location and Google text-to-speech to fulfill the basic requirements of the legislation, just to see how easily it could be done. As it turned out I hit problems early on, but that was definitely a skill issue on my part rather than the technology not being capable!

(I downloaded the NaPTAN database of bus stops onto the tablet but couldn't get the app to recognise the file had been downloaded - it was showing up when I looked in the file browser on the tablet, but the app just wouldn't cooperate. I tried posting online for help but nobody else seemed to know what the issue was either. It was an old tablet running an old version of Android though so it could have been that.)

 

[Teapot42]

True, but as it's been implemented on every London bus since 2009 I don't think there can be any argument that it's an emerging niche technology.

It would be interesting to know how it was implemented in London.

Back in 2009 GPS technology was fairly expensive, plus the necessary computing power to compare route / location and get a reasonably accurate result would be fairly costly. These days it's fairly trivial as prices have dropped and computing power increased massively.

Is the London system actually automatic, or does it rely on the driver keeping track of the location of each stop? (Or should I ask, did it back in 2009)

I think if I'd been tasked with designing a system like this back around 2005 then I'd probably be looking at something like transmitter beacons on each stop that the bus can pick up on. Likely helped in London by buses being used on a fairly common set of routes so not too many options to be programmed in.

Either way, what worked in a dense conurbation like London would not necessarily scale country-wide - although why the likes of Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool didn't have something sooner is another question.

 

[NIT100]

It would be interesting to know how it was implemented in London.

Back in 2009 GPS technology was fairly expensive, plus the necessary computing power to compare route / location and get a reasonably accurate result would be fairly costly. These days it's fairly trivial as prices have dropped and computing power increased massively.

Is the London system actually automatic, or does it rely on the driver keeping track of the location of each stop? (Or should I ask, did it back in 2009)

I think if I'd been tasked with designing a system like this back around 2005 then I'd probably be looking at something like transmitter beacons on each stop that the bus can pick up on. Likely helped in London by buses being used on a fairly common set of routes so not too many options to be programmed in.

Either way, what worked in a dense conurbation like London would not necessarily scale country-wide - although why the likes of Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool didn't have something sooner is another question.

The system was called iBus and was developed by Siemens. It is automatic based on vehicle location and bus route etc.

There is a fairly extensive Wikipedia article on it: IBus (London)

It is fairly obvious why TfL had it installed long before it became a legal requirement, and it is nothing to do with geography, and entirely to do with regulation of bus services. Next stop announcements were implemented in other parts of the country around the same time. Southampton University had next stop announcements and visual displays from about 2005 (can't remember when exactly) on its tendered bus services.

 

[Teapot42]

The system was called iBus and was developed by Siemens. It is automatic based on vehicle location and bus route etc.

There is a fairly extensive Wikipedia article on it: IBus (London)

It is fairly obvious why TfL had it installed long before it became a legal requirement, and it is nothing to do with geography, and entirely to do with regulation of bus services. Next stop announcements were implemented in other parts of the country around the same time. Southampton University had next stop announcements and visual displays from about 2005 (can't remember when exactly) on its tendered bus services.

Thanks, very interesting. From what I read on the Wiki it can't have been a cheap system to implement at the time. Even now, embedded PCs (I'm assuming it was one, due to the reliability requirements) are expensive, back then even more so, and I recall buying a GPS module for a PDA I had several years later and it being around £100. At the time also GPS in built up areas wasn't reliable as tall buildings could reflect signals and confuse the receiver. With more satellites and the ability to use cell towers and even wifi networks for more precise location it's much better now.

As you say, in their case the high cost would be worth it purely in network management terms.

These days you can get a cellular module with GPS and a powerful enough embedded processor to do the same thing for around £10 in volume.

I'm trying to remember, back in the mid 90s there was a shuttle service in Liverpool, I think run by Merseytravel rather than one of the operators. I'm fairly sure it had digital indicators at the stops to show when the bus was coming, it might have had announcements as well on-board? So far back I can't remember it clearly, maybe someone with a better memory can help?

 

[NIT100]

Thanks, very interesting. From what I read on the Wiki it can't have been a cheap system to implement at the time. Even now, embedded PCs (I'm assuming it was one, due to the reliability requirements) are expensive, back then even more so, and I recall buying a GPS module for a PDA I had several years later and it being around £100. At the time also GPS in built up areas wasn't reliable as tall buildings could reflect signals and confuse the receiver. With more satellites and the ability to use cell towers and even wifi networks for more precise location it's much better now.

As you say, in their case the high cost would be worth it purely in network management terms.

These days you can get a cellular module with GPS and a powerful enough embedded processor to do the same thing for around £10 in volume.

I'm trying to remember, back in the mid 90s there was a shuttle service in Liverpool, I think run by Merseytravel rather than one of the operators. I'm fairly sure it had digital indicators at the stops to show when the bus was coming, it might have had announcements as well on-board? So far back I can't remember it clearly, maybe someone with a better memory can help?

It was definitely costly to implement, as you say GPS wasn't accurate enough at the time and was not enough solely for the system, hence the complex sensor and software system to supplement it. Now with GPS and Galileo available to a higher accuracy, it is much easier to rely on these more. However, as vehicle location tracking is now required through BODS (Bus Open Data Service), location information should not be a hurdle operators still need to jump through to implement PSVAIR (Public Service Vehicle Accessible Information Regulations).

Reading some news articles from the time are interesting, shows how much smartphones have changed our expectations of information: The next stop should be Helsinki

 

[Deerfold]

As someone working within the department in TfL that was in charge of iBus, it was ahead of its time when it was introduced, being far more accurate than many other systems of the time.
The person who developed the algorithm worked for TfL, but the contract to implement it, including installation on 8500 buses and maintaining it for 10 years cost £150 million (including upgrades to the radio and ticketing system and tracking systems at the bus garages).

The algorithm accounts for holes in the GPS signal using a distance measurer and gyroscope. Central London has quite a few GPS holes, largely because of tall buildings.

The previous system TfL had depended on radio beacons attached to street furniture.

It couldn't tell where buses were if they went off route unless they passed another beacon and couldn't make predictions before a trip began.

At the time that was implemented, GPS could only give a location to within 100 metres for civilian uses.

The system also downloads where each bus was and was used to develop a system to compare performance to bus contracts, so all buses could be compared. Previously this had been measured using manual surveys of less than 1% of the network at any given time.

 

[318266]

Up here in the wonderous world of western Scotland:

• McGill's has only just started rolling out displays (that notably, aren't visible from the wheelchair space) to their fleet of Yutong E12s (which are already meant to be compliant!). Except they haven't bothered/worked out how to set them up yet, so they are scrolling the default "To Middleton Bus Station" that McKenna Brothers ship their internal Mobitec boards with. The only progress made in regards to the rest of the fleet, appears to be a single ClydeFlyer example voiced by a thick Glaswegian male accent, which I would imagine foreigners at the cruise terminal in Greenock would find hard to interpret (and which is also left disabled by a certain cadre of drivers).
• First Glasgow had already had the infrastructure on most of the fleet, but not enabled - by October they had been, although in a lot of cases the sound is either non-functional or worryingly quiet compared to the ambient rattling of poles.
• Stagecoach West Scotland appear to have all their fleet that needs compliant to be compliant, particular note goes to the 74 plate Yutong E12s that use high-resolution and very modern Hanover Central displays.
• Quite a few smaller independents with one or two newer buses that are required to be compliant, such as Craig's of Cumbernauld, seem to have made little-to-no effort to compliance. Whether they are even aware of this legislation is itself a question worth asking.

 

[Bornin1980s]

---

Is there any way smaller operators can be compliant?

 

[markymark2000]

How are those operators who are not complying getting away with it?

Is this one of those pieces of policy with no regulator, somebody will have to take them to court to get any enforcement?

Dare I say, bus open data has been the law over 4 years ago and bar one or two cases to prove a point, none of the regulators have gotten off their behind to start enforcing that. PSVAR has been in place for a while and none of the regulators have gotten a hold of that yet.
I think you've got a long way before PSVAIR is enforced in any meaningful way. It will just become another one of those laws that is forever ignored because it's just too much hassle for the regulators to do the job that taxpayers pay them to do.

I don't understand, we have had the tech for at least 20 years, what are the technical hurdles?

Some of the hurdles will be the massive ramp up in demand. There aren't many suppliers of next stop displays and announcements and so their teams are limited and as are their parts. If you then start to require tens of thousands more vehicles to become equipped with this equipment within a rather small timeframe, you are going to hit issues with not enough parts and not enough labour to carry out the fitting. This is probably the biggest hurdle. Previous ministers didn't think through the practicalities of the law change.

Even if operators have the system fitted though, there's a lot of issues which can mean it's not activated, most if not all of the systems rely heavily on NAPTAN (the bus stop database). For some reason, despite there being a schema for it, every local authority fills in the database in a different way. Some bus operators are dealing with multiple local authorities and their differing ways of doing things (meaning stops can show up in odd or different formats on next stop screens or text to speech announcements are saying daft things).
A large number of bus stops have the wrong coordinates on naptan and this can mean announcement trigger at the wrong times, or stops have incorrect names, sometimes referencing places which haven't existed in years or the stop name just isn't the best name for the stop.
Some operators are apparently having issues that they need stop names reducing in length on naptan so that the stop name fits on the next stop display (it was raised in a naptan meeting recently but can't remember which one to link to it).
This all requires local authorities to make updates to the naptan database so that passengers can be given the correct information (which in turn can sometimes mean roadside timetables or flags need updating to reflect the new name). Sadly despite being a statutory obligation, many local authorities are struggling to maintain naptan.

Combine that with seemingly more and more bus operator commercial and other office based staff not actually knowing where their own buses stop (judging by the ever growing number of bus open data entries which I keep having to provide feedback to saying that stops are missing or saying 'your bus doesn't stop at this stop at this time') and so any system which is making use of bus open data, or the data is coming from the same place that sorts open data, it's likely that the endless reports that I am providing, are also creating issues on next stop systems.

Combine the lack of parts/labour for fitting, poor naptan entries which must be updated so announcements trigger properly and passengers get told the correct stop names, and operators having poor data on where their services run and where they actually stop, plus very short timeframes for thousands of buses, it's no wonder that we are seeing issues with the rollout.

(Longer post but I think it's useful to explain the actual issues being faced and some of the hurdles that are being faced and how it affects each part of the next stop systems)

 

[Cesarcollie]

---

Is there any way smaller operators can be compliant?

Yes they can buy the kit, fit it, and programme it. Unfortunately it costs a lot of money, manufacturers can’t supply quickly enough, there is a backlog for fitting, and programming the software is a big job and quite specialist - especially with a lot of routes.

 

[Deerfold]

Dare I say, bus open data has been the law over 4 years ago and bar one or two cases to prove a point, none of the regulators have gotten off their behind to start enforcing that. PSVAR has been in place for a while and none of the regulators have gotten a hold of that yet.
I think you've got a long way before PSVAIR is enforced in any meaningful way. It will just become another one of those laws that is forever ignored because it's just too much hassle for the regulators to do the job that taxpayers pay them to do.


Some of the hurdles will be the massive ramp up in demand. There aren't many suppliers of next stop displays and announcements and so their teams are limited and as are their parts. If you then start to require tens of thousands more vehicles to become equipped with this equipment within a rather small timeframe, you are going to hit issues with not enough parts and not enough labour to carry out the fitting. This is probably the biggest hurdle. Previous ministers didn't think through the practicalities of the law change.

Even if operators have the system fitted though, there's a lot of issues which can mean it's not activated, most if not all of the systems rely heavily on NAPTAN (the bus stop database). For some reason, despite there being a schema for it, every local authority fills in the database in a different way. Some bus operators are dealing with multiple local authorities and their differing ways of doing things (meaning stops can show up in odd or different formats on next stop screens or text to speech announcements are saying daft things).
A large number of bus stops have the wrong coordinates on naptan and this can mean announcement trigger at the wrong times, or stops have incorrect names, sometimes referencing places which haven't existed in years or the stop name just isn't the best name for the stop.
Some operators are apparently having issues that they need stop names reducing in length on naptan so that the stop name fits on the next stop display (it was raised in a naptan meeting recently but can't remember which one to link to it).
This all requires local authorities to make updates to the naptan database so that passengers can be given the correct information (which in turn can sometimes mean roadside timetables or flags need updating to reflect the new name). Sadly despite being a statutory obligation, many local authorities are struggling to maintain naptan.

Combine that with seemingly more and more bus operator commercial and other office based staff not actually knowing where their own buses stop (judging by the ever growing number of bus open data entries which I keep having to provide feedback to saying that stops are missing or saying 'your bus doesn't stop at this stop at this time') and so any system which is making use of bus open data, or the data is coming from the same place that sorts open data, it's likely that the endless reports that I am providing, are also creating issues on next stop systems.

Combine the lack of parts/labour for fitting, poor naptan entries which must be updated so announcements trigger properly and passengers get told the correct stop names, and operators having poor data on where their services run and where they actually stop, plus very short timeframes for thousands of buses, it's no wonder that we are seeing issues with the rollout.

(Longer post but I think it's useful to explain the actual issues being faced and some of the hurdles that are being faced and how it affects each part of the next stop systems)

London Buses had an 18 month programme before iBus to ensure their database of bus stops was correct and there was some sort of standardisation of names (including removing most of those named after pubs as they change names so often).

Where I am many stops have 3 different names - the name announced on buses, the name shown on sites such as bustimes.org and the name printed on the stops themselves. One of my local routes passes a stop still named after a pub which had already gone when we moved here in 2007.