Split ticketing delay repay trick, or fraud?

[Royston Vasey]

Testing this currently. Travelled from Manchester Airport to Crewe on Monday, Northern journey all good and on time, well just 2 mins late arriving. Half hour connection onto westbound TfW, which arrived at our final destination Hereford 28 late.

(We were quite lucky actually as it was 62 late at Abergavenny, and terminated at Cardiff instead of Fishguard Harbour - RTT reporting “lightning strike“, not sure of location.)

Have included the MIA-CRE tickets (there were four of us) in the claim for 15-29 minutes delay as it was most definitely planned and bought as a single journey. Will report back.

This is fine, not what the OP was describing! He's describing the leg to Crewe being 28 late but catching an on time connection to Hereford, and claiming the MIA-CRE only!

I've noticed delay repay claims will ask for the booking reference (mine are always from Trainsplit and always single itineraries, I don't normally DIY a split) and TOCs can access the itinerary as booked. I'm not sure if this is the new development alluded to above.

I was challenged by TfW because I had been very slightly disrupted on my second of several legs, a Thameslink service into London. The Brighton was running late into Hitchin so I took the first arriving alternative, a Horsham service, to ensure I made my connection out of London, and did so. After that every leg was on time until their train sat for 90 minutes at Abergavenny, and they still attempted to pass the claim to Thameslink, despite telling them in the claim the exact on time trains I actually took. I knew in this case the Thameslink do allow you to take any train on an "an connections" portion despite giving a no-seat seat reservation, so knew I had that comeback and that I wasn't breaking my itinerary. If anything, I was fixing it and ensuring I had minimised my delay!

 

[Watershed]

If you use split ticketing to buy journey A -> B and B -> C, and you are delayed on your B -> C leg such that you arrive at C 15+ minutes late but service A -> B was fine all day long, are you given delay repay on your whole journey, or only on the B -> C segment?

You get Delay Repay based on the cost of both of your tickets (A-B and B-C). You are entitled to make one journey using multiple tickets under condition 14 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT), so compensation is based on the entire cost of your journey.

If you use split ticketing to buy journey A -> B and B -> C, and you are delayed on your A -> B leg such that you arrive at C 15+ minutes late but service B -> C was fine all day long, are you given delay repay on your whole journey, or only on the A -> B segment, or given delay repay on the A -> B segment for the delay in arriving at B?

The same answer as above; it doesn't matter which leg the disruption occurs on - it is the delay at your final destination that matters.

Delay repay is to give train operators a financial incentive to provide better service (or give the customers a feeling of payback?). For some reason, most operators have additional lower time thresholds or additional % payouts, how very odd in a for-profit model. Maybe there would be too much backlash if this were removed? Or the delay repayments aren't enough to incentivise the train operators improve their service?

It was basically introduced as a political sop by the government to long-suffering commuters - although post-Covid the DfT has not made much effort to roll out Delay Repay 15 to the remaining hold-out TOCs. There was even a suggestion at one point that all DfT-controlled TOCs would move back to a 30 minute threshold to save money.

I have seen no evidence that it financially incentivises operators to reduce delays; if anything, the opposite seems to be the case! Operators often seem to prefer that you are unnecessarily delayed (increasing their Delay Repay liability) than give ticket acceptance.

 

[redreni]

I've noticed delay repay claims will ask for the booking reference (mine are always from Trainsplit and always single itineraries, I don't normally DIY a split) and TOCs can access the itinerary as booked. I'm not sure if this is the new development alluded to above.

I don't think the booked itinerary is conclusive.

I frequently buy tickets from West Drayton to Maidenhead in lieu of Boundary Zone 6 to Maidenhead tickets (because LNER offers cashback but doesn't sell boundary zone tickets). In order to buy this ticket I have to select an Elizabeth Line departure from West Drayton, and an Elizabeth Line departure from Maidenhead back to West Drayton in the evening, but I rarely travel according to my booked itinerary - it is far quicker to use the semi-fast GWR train. Also, I am not actually going from or to West Drayton. Similar issues arise if you're starting short - you may have to buy against an itinerary that doesn't reflect what you intend to do.

Delay repay is payable against your intended journey, but you are perfectly entitled to buy a ticket against an itinerary with the intention of doing something different. Or, indeed, to change your mind between purchasing the ticket and travelling.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I don't think the booked itinerary is conclusive.

I frequently buy tickets from West Drayton to Maidenhead in lieu of Boundary Zone 6 to Maidenhead tickets (because LNER offers cashback but doesn't sell boundary zone tickets). In order to buy this ticket I have to select an Elizabeth Line departure from West Drayton, and an Elizabeth Line departure from Maidenhead back to West Drayton in the evening, but I rarely travel according to my booked itinerary - it is far quicker to use the semi-fast GWR train. Also, I am not actually going from or to West Drayton. Similar issues arise if you're starting short - you may have to buy against an itinerary that doesn't reflect what you intend to do.

Delay repay is payable against your intended journey, but you are perfectly entitled to buy a ticket against an itinerary with the intention of doing something different. Or, indeed, to change your mind between purchasing the ticket and travelling.

Neither should it be conclusive when flexibile tickets are involved! Let's just say it's good evidence of your intention if it matches; if it doesn't it's up to us to state our actual intended itinerary, and for them to recognise that often it's not binding (and the claimant to fight if they challenge it)

 

[hkstudent]

In general I would agree a full journey to be claimed.
However, the delay of the first leg actually does reduce the time can be enjoyed by the op in the interchange point which is still a convenience.

Given that there are no absolute black and white terms on NRCOT that split tickets MUST be joined into one journey, there is doubt in the regulation.

When there’s doubt, based on principles in consumer law or even principles in Common Law, benefits of doubts are towards the customer/defendant.

 

[Royston Vasey]

In general I would agree a full journey to be claimed.
However, the delay of the first leg actually does reduce the time can be enjoyed by the op in the interchange point which is still a convenience.

Given that there are no absolute black and white terms on NRCOT that split tickets MUST be joined into one journey, there is doubt in the regulation.

When there’s doubt, based on principles in consumer law or even principles in Common Law, benefits of doubts are towards the customer/defendant.

I've deliberately booked over a two hour connection at Crewe in a couple of weeks to spend at the station watching trains, between arriving on the hourly Newark Castle service and departing on TfW.

This almost eliminates the possibility of a missed connection delay at Crewe, but of course if one of the Newark trains is cancelled it does severely cut my enjoyment of my "break" of journey (though I'm unlikely to even leave the station!) at least in half.

But still, I feel like if delayed on my final leg, I would only claim from Crewe rather than from back at Newark. And if delayed into Crewe but not subsequently, claim only up to that point.

130 minutes' connection feels like it's so unnecessary, and the fact I've planned and activity in between, that it defines itself in my head as two journeys. Doesn't pass my internal smell test, aka conscience, and I'd be nervous about being declined or who knows, accused of fraud!

 

[Haywain]

I've deliberately booked over a two hour connection at Crewe in a couple of weeks to spend at the station watching trains, between arriving on the hourly Newark Castle service and departing on TfW.

This almost eliminates the possibility of a missed connection delay at Crewe, but of course if one of the Newark trains is cancelled it does severely cut my enjoyment of my "break" of journey (though I'm unlikely to even leave the station!) at least in half.

But still, I feel like if delayed on my final leg, I would only claim from Crewe rather than from back at Newark. And if delayed into Crewe but not subsequently, claim only up to that point.

130 minutes' connection feels like it's so unnecessary, and the fact I've planned and activity in between, that it defines itself in my head as two journeys. Doesn't pass my internal smell test, aka conscience, and I'd be nervous about being declined or who knows, accused of fraud!

Have you booked split tickets or one through ticket? If it's the latter you can claim for one sector or the other but you will be paid out on the through ticket price - which is fine, as you are entitled to break a journey.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Have you booked split tickets or one through ticket? If it's the latter you can claim for one sector or the other but you will be paid out on the through ticket price - which is fine, as you are entitled to break a journey.

Multiple split tickets on a single booked itinerary, one split being at Crewe between an EMR advance and a TfW advance

 

[trainophile]

Testing this currently. Travelled from Manchester Airport to Crewe on Monday, Northern journey all good and on time, well just 2 mins late arriving. Half hour connection onto westbound TfW, which arrived at our final destination Hereford 28 late.

(We were quite lucky actually as it was 62 late at Abergavenny, and terminated at Cardiff instead of Fishguard Harbour - RTT reporting “lightning strike“, not sure of location.)

Have included the MIA-CRE tickets (there were four of us) in the claim for 15-29 minutes delay as it was most definitely planned and bought as a single journey. Will report back.

Update - claim approved in full including the MIA-CRE tickets .