Split ticketing on LU and LO using Oyster

[lightbulb]

Hello all,

I've been looking at fares on LTFares.com and have spotted that in certain circumstances it appears cheaper to split tickets. Using New Cross Gate to North Harrow as an example (a single journey I'm taking off-peak later today) with a Disabled Persons Railcard loaded onto my Oyster card, I see that there is no option quoted avoiding Zone 1: the fare is £2.05. I was under the impression that if one avoided Zone 1 and touched in at any Pink Validators (e.g. at Clapham Junction) that should validate a non-Zone 1 fare, in this instance £1.00.

So, assuming that the above would only work if there was a route avoiding Zone 1 specifically quoted, I noticed instead that if I were to travel from New Cross Gate to West Hampstead via either Highbury & Islington or Clapham Junction the fare would be £1. Likewise a journey between West Hampstead LU and North Harrow would also be £1: the whole journey should therefore cost £2, saving 5p over the through fare from New Cross Gate to North Harrow.

But I suspect that the through fare would be charged anyway as the system would treat it all as one journey, because the interchange at West Hampstead is an OSI (Out of Station Interchange). I seem to recall that an OSI could be broken by touching in on a bus, but I'm not sure whether that's true now the Hopper fare exists (multiple touch ins on by bus within 70 minutes [I know that it's advertised as being 60 minutes]), but in this case, would be a waste of £1.50 as I'm not going to be hitting the daily cap for zones 1-5 today.

So I've two questions:

1. Why don't the Pink Validators automatically define a non-Zone 1 journey as such, irrespective of whether a non Zone-1 journey is a defined route?

2. How might it be possible to take advantage of the theoretical split at West Hampstead?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

2. How might it be possible to take advantage of the theoretical split at West Hampstead?

The only way I can see would be to add your Railcard discount to two different Oyster cards, and then use one for the first part of the journey and another for the rest.

As far as I'm aware, there is nothing in the Oyster terms which prohibits having or using multiple Oyster cards generally - other than that of course it's one Oyster card per passenger.

 

[button_boxer]

2. How might it be possible to take advantage of the theoretical split at West Hampstead?

I’m sure I've seen MikeWh on here talk about a hokey-cokey type move that would work, assuming both West Hampstead stations are gated rather than having standalone validators (I'm not familiar with them). If this is the case then you should be able to touch out, then in, then immediately out again at one of the stations, then go to the other one and touch in there within 45 minutes (edit: or you can do it the other way round, out from station A then in-out-in at station B). The out-in-out thing triggers the same-station exit process which takes precedence over the OSI.

https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/interchanging-trains/#comment-30898

Edit: according to MikeWh below, this doesn’t work.

 

[Clip]

So, assuming that the above would only work if there was a route avoiding Zone 1 specifically quoted, I noticed instead that if I were to travel from New Cross Gate to West Hampstead via either Highbury & Islington

That cant be right can it as to go via Highbury you go through shoreditch which is in zone 1

 

[telstarbox]

Could you also touch in on a bus and immediately alight, to break the OSI?

 

[lightbulb]

Could you also touch in on a bus and immediately alight, to break the OSI?

Yes, but unless the daily cap has been (or is expected to be) reached, it'll charge £1.50 for the bus, negating the saving by splitting.

 

[PeterC]

I'm sure I've seen MikeWh on here talk about a hokey-cokey type move that would work, assuming both West Hampstead stations are gated rather than having standalone validators (I'm not familiar with them). If this is the case then you should be able to touch out, then in, then immediately out again at one of the stations, then go to the other one and touch in there within 45 minutes (edit: or you can do it the other way round, out from station A then in-out-in at station B). The out-in-out thing triggers the same-station exit process which takes precedence over the OSI.

https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/interchanging-trains/#comment-30898

IIRC the North London Line station is now gated, the Jubilee station is of course gated while the Thameslink station had stand alone readers the last time I used it.

According to the Single Fare Finder the cheaper route to West Hampstead NLL is via Stratford and you need to touch a pink reader there. It seems perverse that the system would then charge you via zone 1 if you have taken a legitimate non zone 1 route to an interchange on the route between zone 1 and your destination.

 

[MikeWh]

1. Why don't the Pink Validators automatically define a non-Zone 1 journey as such, irrespective of whether a non Zone-1 journey is a defined route?

The problem here is the understanding of valid routes and how they are validated. To be charged, a route must be programmed into the database. That entry will state the touches (either OSI or pink readers) required to validate it. If there is no route programmed then no amount of touching a pink validator will cause it to be recognised.

2. How might it be possible to take advantage of the theoretical split at West Hampstead?

I don't think it is in your case

I'm sure I've seen MikeWh on here talk about a hokey-cokey type move that would work, assuming both West Hampstead stations are gated rather than having standalone validators (I'm not familiar with them). If this is the case then you should be able to touch out, then in, then immediately out again at one of the stations, then go to the other one and touch in there within 45 minutes (edit: or you can do it the other way round, out from station A then in-out-in at station B). The out-in-out thing triggers the same-station exit process which takes precedence over the OSI.

https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/interchanging-trains/#comment-30898

Must get rid of that section at some point. It only works in a very limited set of circumstances, sadly. Also, it doesn't take precedence over the OSI which is the crux of the problem.

That cant be right can it as to go via Highbury you go through shoreditch which is in zone 1

Correct. There are cases where the system gives you the benefit of the doubt (eg Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington) but this isn't one of them.

 

[swt_passenger]

Or put another way, “pink readers” are not there to let you design your own route...

 

[some bloke]

"It only works in a very limited set of circumstances, sadly. Also, it doesn't take precedence over the OSI which is the crux of the problem."

Thanks for all the work you do on this kind of thing.

Is it clear what the circumstances are - such as where there are gates in both cases, and the fare is the same to each as in the example below?

"the hokey-cokey would work because the fare from Lewisham to either side of London Bridge NR is the same."
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/oyster-osi-across-peak-off-peak-cutoff.125758/#post-2434881

I'm not clear on the part about precedence, as it does seem to override the OSI in some cases. Perhaps there's an implication of the word "also" which I'm not getting.

Also are there any circumstances (apart from the risk of inconvenience to others in busy periods) where it would be a bad idea to try? I mentioned the option to a TfL staff member at the St Pancras travel centre the other week and he responded as if it was going to cause big trouble!

 

[bakerstreet]

Hello all,

I've been looking at fares on LTFares.com and have spotted that in certain circumstances it appears cheaper to split tickets. Using New Cross Gate to North Harrow as an example (a single journey I'm taking off-peak later today) with a Disabled Persons Railcard loaded onto my Oyster card, I see that there is no option quoted avoiding Zone 1: the fare is £2.05. I was under the impression that if one avoided Zone 1 and touched in at any Pink Validators (e.g. at Clapham Junction) that should validate a non-Zone 1 fare, in this instance £1.00.

2. How might it be possible to take advantage of the theoretical split at West Hampstead?

One way I would try it is

New Cross Gate - Canada Water
Canada Water - Stratford (touch pink reader)
Stratford - Finchley Rd and Frognal. Touch out of system.
Walk to Finchley Rd station (5-10 mins)
Finchley Road to North Harrow.

Obvious this depends on your ability to do the walk. And also whether the system will charge you in the way you desire by doing this - but worth a try

 

[A Challenge]

As Finchley Road and Frognal to Finchley Road is an OSI, you would need to wait for the OSI to time out (20 minutes) before touching in at the other end

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks for all the work you do on this kind of thing.

Is it clear what the circumstances are - such as where there are gates in both cases, and the fare is the same to each as in the example below?


I'm not clear on the part about precedence, as it does seem to override the OSI in some cases. Perhaps there's an implication of the word "also" which I'm not getting.

Also are there any circumstances (apart from the risk of inconvenience to others in busy periods) where it would be a bad idea to try? I mentioned the option to a TfL staff member at the St Pancras travel centre the other week and he responded as if it was going to cause big trouble!

OK, terminology breakdown when I posted this.

The in-out-in move overrides the SSE (same station exit) and in so doing it breaks the OSI (out of station interchange). If the SSE wasn't overridden then it would work all the time, which is a shame. I do however understand that it would be complex to make it work the other way round.

The circumstances. Basically there have to be similarly priced routes to both stations in the OSI from your original start point. I think the best example is Broxbourne to a zone 1 tube station. The best route usually is to travel via Tottenham Hale, changing there to the Underground. When you touch out at Tottenham Hale NR you are charged a Broxbourne to Tottenham Hale NR single. When you touch in at Tottenham Hale LU your journey is extended, and when you touch out again it becomes a Broxbourne to Tottenham Hale LU journey. This is possible because you can also travel via Seven Sisters (no OSI) and the Victoria line for the same price. When you touch back in at Tottenham Hale LU you are starting a new journey just on the Underground and you lose the premium charged on the overall journey from Broxbourne.

 

[some bloke]

Basically there have to be similarly priced routes to both stations in the OSI from your original start point.

Thank you. Is there a known disadvantage to trying?

Also I've just had an idea, but I don't know how the software would handle it. Could it sometimes work to touch in, wait two minutes, then out and in?
Where the intention is two separate journeys, perhaps that might avoid maximum fares - and a "cheapest single fare" would be free if the cap will be reached anyway.

 

[bakerstreet]

As Finchley Road and Frognal to Finchley Road is an OSI, you would need to wait for the OSI to time out (20 minutes) before touching in at the other end

Good point. I never knew that was an OSI. Interestingly the change between Finchley Road & Frognal and Finchley Roas tube is not marked on the tube map. In fact on the map. Frognal is quite a way away from Finchley Rd.

The other option maybe is to change at W Hampstead Overground, walk to Finchley Rd which can be done in about 15 mins or so.