Splits when ticket office unstaffed

[RobLawrence]

What do the conditions of travel have to say about me making a journey when, ideally, I would want to split it with two tickets but at the time I begin my journey the ticket office is not open, restricting my ability to purchase the second half of the split?

Obviously if the ticket machine at the initial station would allow me to purchase both halves of the journey, this would be straightforward. But most do not.

It would appear there are three alternatives - assuming I wish to buy the ticket as a walk up:
1. Disembark at the splitting station and buying the second half there - needlessly delaying my journey.
2. Continue on the original service, with the intention of buying the second half of the ticket either on arrival or en route from someone on board who is able to sell me the ticket. Clearly the least disruptive option to me as I travel.
3. Accept that because I travel before the ticket office is staffed, I cannot benefit from a walk up split. Which seems unfair.

 

[dj_mikey_k]

Buy tickets online and use TVM to collect
M Tickets

 

[RobLawrence]

Buy tickets online and use TVM to collect
M Tickets

But that would mean I couldn't do it as a walk up, right? Isn't there a required minimum period between doing the transaction and collecting. So assuming I am at the machine at 0515 - which is earlier than I would like anyway - I would need to make the transaction perhaps as early as 0315 to be guaranteed a ticket to collect.

Would be interested to know what the conditions say. With the TVM not offering the option to buy tickets other than from the station where it I still located (despite the technology easily existing for this not to be the case) and ticket office opening times tending to get later, it would seem perverse for me as the passenger to have a more difficult ticket buying experience, when the station operators could have made it easier.

 

[dj_mikey_k]

M ticket could be bought on the platform from your phone for use instantly

I do agree that all TVM's should be able to sell the full A-Z range of tickets

 

[robbeech]

Some online retailers (vtec included) can make tickets available to collect almost instantly whereas others (such as Trainline) require 2 hours.

I’m not sure what the official line would be here, I’m sure others will know but remember that if there is an opportunity to purchase at the station then you will need to at least buy the first ticket before boarding.

If you cannot buy online for TOD I would recommend buying the first ticket from the machine and seeking the guard ASAP and explaining you wish to purchase and additional ticket to your final destination.

 

[talldave]

In the past I've stood next to a TVM, purchased online, and immediately collected from the TVM. It was some time ago, but I think it was the old Southern Webtis site and a Southern TVM.

 

[Mathew S]

I'm pretty sure I've ordered through the VTWC app and collected from a TVM in <5 minutes.

@RobLawrence - could you not buy the tickets in advance? Whether in person from any station or by ordering online to collect TOD?

At a push, there's no practical reason I can think of you can't buy two m-tickets if they're available for the route concerned. Or even buy the first ticket from the TVM and the second as an m-ticket once you've boarded.

 

[RobLawrence]

@RobLawrence - could you not buy the tickets in advance? Whether in person from any station or by ordering online to collect TOD?

Not really. I don't know until shortly before making the journey which journey I will be making on any given date - so I really rely on "walk up" tickets. The idea of buying the second as an M ticket is appealing.

If you cannot buy online for TOD I would recommend buying the first ticket from the machine and seeking the guard ASAP and explaining you wish to purchase and additional ticket to your final destination.

Which would certainly be my approach if there was a guard on board. Usually there is not.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just playing the Devil's Advocate for a moment, I can understand why TOCs would be more than a little reluctant to sell split tickets from TVMs. Putting aside the obvious issue of them often being cheaper, it would take considerably longer for a passenger buying them from a TVM which in turn could lead to longer queues and annoyed passengers. I know I don't like being behind passengers buying split or complex tickets, although to be fair I'm not exactly the most patient, but at least where there are TVMs passengers can opt to use these instead. But where there are only TVMs it could lead to issues.

To be honest, if you are planning a journey which involves splitting it is probably better to book online using a specialised engine wherever possible in my humble opinion, and just collect them at the station / TVM. As others have mentioned TOD can be available pretty quickly and can be produced much quicker than ordering numerous journeys with a growing number of annoyed punters tapping their feet behind you.

 

[RobLawrence]

Just playing the Devil's Advocate for a moment, I can understand why TOCs would be more than a little reluctant to sell split tickets from TVMs. Putting aside the obvious issue of them often being cheaper, it would take considerably longer for a passenger buying them from a TVM which in turn could lead to longer queues and annoyed passengers. I know I don't like being behind passengers buying split or complex tickets, although to be fair I'm not exactly the most patient, but at least where there are TVMs passengers can opt to use these instead. But where there are only TVMs it could lead to issues.

To be honest, if you are planning a journey which involves splitting it is probably better to book online using a specialised engine wherever possible in my humble opinion, and just collect them at the station / TVM. As others have mentioned TOD can be available pretty quickly and can be produced much quicker than ordering numerous journeys with a growing number of annoyed punters tapping their feet behind you.

Thing is, I already can on several of their machines. But not all. And, just for the record, I am a lot quicker at purchasing my split journey than many passengers seem to be at buying their "simple" one ticket journeys

 

[Bantamzen]

Thing is, I already can on several of their machines. But not all. And, just for the record, I am a lot quicker at purchasing my split journey than many passengers seem to be at buying their "simple" one ticket journeys

I don't doubt it, but I'm betting that many passengers wouldn't be as speedy ordering splits if they were available, especially if simple ones take a while for them. Goodness knows I've stood behind some that take forever picking up TODs...

 

[talldave]

Any TVM that offers "tickets from another station" effectively supports splits, but I really don't think many "walk-up and go" punters would even contemplate them.

One of my regular commutes into London involves a split. Yesterday, I hadn't been organised enough to purchase online, so bought the first ticket at the TVM then, discovering that it didn't have the "tickets from another station" feature, bought the second ticket from the ticket office (had the office been closed it would have been a frantic smartphone purchase and instant TVM collect before missing the train!). The tickets don't work any of the barriers in London, so I have to be let through six barriers manually, but there's a good feeling to be had from getting such a cheap trip!

 

[Clip]

Would be interested to know what the conditions say.

That you must have a valid ticket to travel and purchase them ebfore you travel where facilities exist/are working.

Station booking offices and TVMs are under no requirement(unless its recently changed) to offer the passenger split tickets as a given right to the passenger so as people have outlined above buy them before and pick them up from a tvm the next morning.

 

[AlterEgo]

Station booking offices and TVMs are under no requirement(unless its recently changed) to offer the passenger split tickets as a given right to the passenger so as people have outlined above buy them before and pick them up from a tvm the next morning.

That proviso relates specifically to impartial retailing under the TSA. It does not impact a passenger's statutory right to avail of split ticketing where the split is entirely their idea and they request this.

The question is whether the railway needs to accommodate a split request when the full range of tickets is not available at the origin station, only that *a* ticket is available.

I am inclined to suggest that where the passenger's desired combination of tickets is not available at the origin station, they should, where practical, be offered the combination at the earliest opportunity. However, the passenger should not travel without a ticket, nor should they travel overdistance on the unticketed "second leg". It is not clear whether the passenger should alight at an intermediate station to purchase the second part of the split.

 

[Starmill]

The best thing to do is probably to ask the train company. Explain that you wish to buy a ticket from an unstaffed station and the ticket isn't available. Ask what you should do under those circumstances.

 

[Clip]

That proviso relates specifically to impartial retailing under the TSA. It does not impact a passenger's statutory right to avail of split ticketing where the split is entirely their idea and they request this.

The question is whether the railway needs to accommodate a split request when the full range of tickets is not available at the origin station, only that *a* ticket is available.

I am inclined to suggest that where the passenger's desired combination of tickets is not available at the origin station, they should, where practical, be offered the combination at the earliest opportunity. However, the passenger should not travel without a ticket, nor should they travel overdistance on the unticketed "second leg". It is not clear whether the passenger should alight at an intermediate station to purchase the second part of the split.

im aware of all that i was responding to the post i quoted when they asked about what the conditions say

 

[Albion91]

Surely you buy the first ticket and buy the rest at the earliest opportunity (probably the guard on the train, but if not... The first change point or Potentially the destination?) I don't think alighting should be required...

You haven't had opportunity to purchase your ticket for the second leg of the journey.

 

[1B85]

I actually tested this a few years back - I purchased online using mobile internet whilst on the VTEC site and then repeatedly queried the TVM until my ticket was available. I think it was ready in less than five minutes, although not immediately.

As for your question - you buy the split if available and pick up via ToD. If for some reason you cannot do this, then you purchase the first part immediately before travel from a TVM and then seek out the guard on your train. If you can't find him and he comes out of his little space part way through the journey to check tickets and you've passed the split point, you show him the TVM issued first part, tell him that he is the first opportunity to purchase the second part as the ticket you require was not available from that particular TVM where you boarded, and he should allow you to do so.

 

[AlterEgo]

Surely you buy the first ticket and buy the rest at the earliest opportunity (probably the guard on the train, but if not... The first change point or Potentially the destination?) I don't think alighting should be required...

You haven't had opportunity to purchase your ticket for the second leg of the journey.

This requires the poster to travel beyond the validity of the ticket. I’m not sure that’s good advice (though equally I don’t have a firm view on this, it’s a tricky one).

 

[Nick66]

Which TOC are you booking with? Oddly enough VTEC still asks you to specify the station where you want to pick up your tickets but you ca pick them up from any station that issues TODs - I have recently verified this having nominated KGX but collected from VIC to save time while I was waiting for another train. You used to get a warning message if you specified a different station to your departure station but that hasn't been the case for some time.

 

[AlterEgo]

Which TOC are you booking with? Oddly enough VTEC still asks you to specify the station where you want to pick up your tickets but you ca pick them up from any station that issues TODs - I have recently verified this having nominated KGX but collected from VIC to save time while I was waiting for another train. You used to get a warning message if you specified a different station to your departure station but that hasn't been the case for some time.

This is the case for all TOCs.

 

[RobLawrence]

Thanks for all your helpful replies so far, especially the thoughtful ones. And thank you for the practical suggestion of M-tickets. Perfectly good idea although my concern with those is being reliant on a phone/battery to prove my validity to travel (at 5am I have been known to leave the house with a phone that failed to charge overnight - operator error - and is already starting the day well down on juice, which could be perilous!)

In particular this gets to the heart of the issue for me:

The question is whether the railway needs to accommodate a split request when the full range of tickets is not available at the origin station, only that *a* ticket is available.

This is where the room for ambiguity appears to lie.

Surely you buy the first ticket and buy the rest at the earliest opportunity (probably the guard on the train, but if not... The first change point or Potentially the destination?) I don't think alighting should be required...You haven't had opportunity to purchase your ticket for the second leg of the journey.

I think the final sentence sums up the dilemma. Because of ...

a passenger's statutory right to avail of split ticketing where the split is entirely their idea and they request this.

...my argument is that I want to request this but my request is being ignored by then TVM(!)

What this thread has reminded me is that I should consider the split as a right of mine to be able to request rather than an act of benevolence by the TOC that I should consider myself luck to enjoy. So for that reason, the following advice feels perfectly assertive and not like I am begging a favour:

The best thing to do is probably to ask the train company. Explain that you wish to buy a ticket from an unstaffed station and the ticket isn't available. Ask what you should do under those circumstances.

Thanks all for your replies. Any other thoughts, please keep them coming.

 

[causton]

I would certainly not travel beyond the validity of the first ticket by any means.

Your right to a cheap split ticket is less than the right of the TOC to prosecute for not having a valid ticket when asked for one!

 

[RobLawrence]

I would certainly not travel beyond the validity of the first ticket by any means.

Your right to a cheap split ticket is less than the right of the TOC to prosecute for not having a valid ticket when asked for one!

Aren't we saying the rights are equal. But the consequences of the latter are more problematic?

As an aside: wouldn't this be easier if TVMs actually sold the fabled "permit to travel"? Do any modern machines even offer such an option?

 

[AlterEgo]

Aren't we saying the rights are equal. But the consequences of the latter are more problematic?

As an aside: wouldn't this be easier if TVMs actually sold the fabled "permit to travel"? Do any modern machines even offer such an option?

I don’t think it is necessarily possible to argue the rights are equal.

A customer has the right to request splits from the booking office and the company has to honour this request when asked.

A customer however has the obligation to obey all of the railway bylaws.

A passenger may request split tickets for their journey, but I don’t believe that a passenger insisting on their right to use more than one ticket is a defence to the offence of travelling without one.

Imagine a passenger travelling from Wolverton to Portsmouth Harbour. Imagine for a moment that it’s cheaper to buy Wolverton-London Z1 and Waterloo-Portsmouth separately. Imagine also the customer travels at a time where the ticket office at Wolverton is closed and the TVM does not retail tickets with another station as the origin. Imagine also the passenger has a printed itinerary from NRE between Wolverton and Portsmouth Harbour. The passenger can buy only their Wolverton-London Z1 ticket, and follows this itinerary and arrives in Waterloo on time. Their next train is due to leave shortly, but they will miss it if they stop to purchase their onward ticket.

Does the customer have the right to go to the gateline and demand to be let through without a ticket?

My argument is that the railway has given them the opportunity to pay already, at Wolverton - the TVM will retail a Wolverton-Portsmouth Harbour ticket. I accept that this might not be the combination wanted, but nonetheless the appropriate ticket for the journey was available to purchase.

There would be serious consequences if the railway had to accept that anyone travelling over-distance (and in some cases significantly so) could claim they really only wanted to purchase a combination of tickets.

 

[Starmill]

A similar situation exists where the ticket the customer wishes to buy isn't available (e.g. Their station or ticket type isn't on the machine). Most Train Companies would tell you to buy the ticket on the train in that case. Lots say in their publicity that being unable to buy the correct ticket before boarding is in and of itself reason enough to buy the ticket on the train. The notices on ticket machines often say that.

 

[Albion91]

I don't buy the idea that if the tvm doesn't sell the tickets to which a customer is entitled, they are required to buy a more expensive ticket!

Suppose a TVM didn't, for some reason, sell tickets to a particular destination. Is the customer required to purchase a ticket which permits boj to a station beyond their destination so they can stop short at their own expense?

Surely an inability to buy a walk up ticket to which a customer is entitled is good grounds for continuing to travel until their earliest opportunity to buy it?

It is quite ludicrous that TVMs aren't able to sell the full range of walk up tickets anyway.

 

[RobLawrence]

Quite sympathetic to this argument - surely there is no tech reason preventing it. But if that really is too much of an ask why can't TVMs simply include a permit to travel option (and perhaps only available "out of hours") , to at least offer the would-be passenger a legitimate means of embarking on their journey

 

[yorkie]

What journey(s) do you have in mind?

 

[Starmill]

It is quite ludicrous that TVMs aren't able to sell the full range of walk up tickets anyway.

Without a doubt.