Splitting and joining/alighting short.

[bnm]

Is it allowable to split a fare and use the join/alight short rules on the second half of the split without getting off until the final destination.

I'm well aware that splitting alone doesn't require you to alight.

Here's what I've been looking at. I have always split my day returns Bristol-Paddington at Didcot enabling use of two Off Peak Day Returns (CDRs) totalling £38.80, saving a fair wedge on the nearest equivalent Off Peak Return (SVR) through fare of £59.00. However FGW no longer accept DID-PAD CDRs in the evening peak on fast trains from Paddington to Didcot, despite NFM 05 saying the are valid on any train, (I've had correspondence with FGW over this - they are adamant that NFM is wrong and Journey Planners are right - but that's another story) meaning I cannot travel straight through to Bristol unless before 1630 or after 1930.

Now, thanks to another topic on this forum, I've discovered that there is a CDR fare from Banbury to Paddington (well... 'London Terrminals') which is obviously valid via Didcot and also doesn't have the annoying evening peak restriction limiting you to slow trains to Didcot.

Can I therefore combine a CDR from BRI-DID with a CDR from BAN-PAD without alighting at Didcot? I could alight at Didcot and get the next fast train to PAD up and BRI down, but would rather stay on the train. Would it matter that the Train Manager would be aware that I hadn't travelled up from Banbury to Didcot?

This split works out at £5 more than the Didcot split, but does mean that I could potentially catch a through train to Bristol in the evening peak - one that calls at Didcot, obviously!

 

[barrykas]

Here's what I've been looking at. I have always split my day returns Bristol-Paddington at Didcot enabling use of two Off Peak Day Returns (CDRs) totalling £38.80, saving a fair wedge on the nearest equivalent Off Peak Return (SVR) through fare of £59.00. However FGW no longer accept DID-PAD CDRs in the evening peak on fast trains from Paddington to Didcot, despite NFM 05 saying the are valid on any train, (I've had correspondence with FGW over this - they are adamant that NFM is wrong and Journey Planners are right - but that's another story) meaning I cannot travel straight through to Bristol unless before 1630 or after 1930.

This is a long standing restriction, possibly dating back to BR days (certainly I can find it referred to in NFM94, which is the oldest available on the passworded section of the ATOC website), that ALL CDRs, Network Awaybreaks and Off-Peak Day Travelcards are barred from most HST services from Paddington and Reading in the evening peak.

The list of restricted trains in NFM05 is as follows (times given are those from Paddington):

1600 (BRI), 1606 (PNZ), 1615 (SWA), 1630 (TAU), 1633 (EXD/PLY), 1645 (SWA), 1651 (OXF), 1700 (BRI), 1703 (PNZ), 1715 (SWA), 1722 (HFD), 1730 (TAU), 1733 (PGN), 1745 (CMN), 1748 (CNM), 1751 (WOS), 1800 (BRI), 1803 (PNZ), 1815 (SWA), 1821 (HFD), 1830 (WSM), 1836 (EXD/PLY), 1845 (SWA), 1848 (CNM), 1851 (OXF), 1900 (BRI), 1903 (PLY/PNZ), 1915 (SWA)

The same list appears in NFM06, with a few minor retimings:

1633 -> 1636, 1651 -> 1648, 1751 -> 1750, 1821 -> 1822

Cheers,

Barry

 

[tony_mac]

The off-peak return is only 90p more than the day return anyway.

 

[bnm]

Restriction code 5K does apply to Didcot on SVRs. My previous journeys however involve a CDR from DID-PAD. NFM 05 currently says that CDRs from DID-PAD are restricted in the AM to arrival in London after 1000 and return by any train under code P7.

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bnm/DIDnfm.jpg

That's a side issue though. I'm fully aware of the restrictions out of Paddington and the difference of opinion between the publically available NFM and FGW with regard to CDRs on fast services from PAD to DID. My main query is whether you can stay on a train with a split fare where the second set of tickets involves a start/end destination different to the split point, which when used on their own would allow joining/alighting short.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The off-peak return is only 90p more than the day return anyway.

Eh?

I presume you are talking about the SVR and CDR from Banbury to London Terminals. But why would I pay 90p more for a ticket when my regular trip is a day return?

Again, a side issue.... see above.

 

[John @ home]

FGW no longer accept DID-PAD CDRs in the evening peak on fast trains from Paddington to Didcot, despite NFM 05 saying the are valid on any train

We have debated this issue a few months ago in this thread. For about half a century, the Western Region of British Railways and its successors have adopted a different approach to the other Regions and companies to the evening restrictions on cheap day returns on trains out of London. Briefly, travel was allowed throughout the evening peak on local trains but barred on express, later InterCity, trains.

This different approach made travel planning a little awkward, but as long as the restrictions were properly advertised, my opinion is that they were valid and enforceable restrictions. When I lived in the relevant area during the 1980s, the restrictions were advertised in leaflets available at the relevant stations.

The restrictions continued to be advertised while the printed version of the National Fares Manuals were made available to the public. These were a number of large books which could be purchased from TSO. It appears that a complete set of the final edition, NFM 98, which expired on 17 May 2008, can still be purchased there for £107.35. I posted the list of evening restrictions on trains from Paddington and Reading in the previous discussion. That list was in force from Jan - May 2008. barrykas has given the current list above.

If the restrictions are no longer advertised to the public, then I agree with yorkie that

it is difficult to see how any restriction can possibly be enforced!

but I no longer live in the relevant area and I don't know whether there are still leaflets available at the relevant stations.

Given this history, it appears to me that you would encounter exactly the same difficulty in using a Banbury - London CDR on a fast train in the evening peak that you currently have with a Didcot - London CDR.

There may well be a case that the advertising of these (and other) CDRs as

RETURN TRAVEL By any train

means that the restrictions cannot lawfully be enforced, but it will be a lengthy, and perhaps expensive, process to establish this.

Therefore I see no advantage is using a Banbury - London CDR instead of a Didcot - London CDR. For completeness, the answers to your other questions are:

Is it allowable to split a fare and use the join/alight short rules on the second half of the split without getting off until the final destination.

Yes.

Can I therefore combine a CDR from BRI-DID with a CDR from BAN-PAD without alighting at Didcot?

Yes.

Would it matter that the Train Manager would be aware that I hadn't travelled up from Banbury to Didcot?

No.

 

[OwlMan]

From NFM 6 Avantix

Restriction : P7
OUTWARD TRAVEL:
By any train scheduled to
arrive London Terminals or
Kensington Olympia at or after
1000.

RETURN TRAVEL:
By any train except those
listed in the table below:

Ticket may NOT be used on the
following services, Monday -
Friday:


From From Final
Padd Rdg Destination
1600___1628___Bristol TM (BRI)
1606___1633___Penzance (PNZ)
1615___1642___Swansea (SWA)
1630___1659___Taunton (TAU)
1636___1704___Exeter St D(EXD)
1645___1712___Swansea (SWA)
1649___1721___Oxford (OXF)
1700___1727___Bristol TM (BRI)
1703___1732___Penzance (PNZ)
1715 1743___Swansea (SWA)
1722 1751 Hereford (HFD)
1730 1757 Taunton (TAU)
1736 1804 Paignton (PGN)
1745___1812___Carmarthen (CMN)
1748 1817 Cheltenham (CNM)
1750 1823 Worcester (WOS)
1800 1828 Bristol TM (BRI)
1803 1833 Penzance (PNZ)
1815 1843 Swansea (SWA)
1822 1852 Hereford (HFD)
1830 1857 Weston SM (WSM)
1833 1904 Exeter (EXD) FX
1833 1904 Plymouth(PLY) FO
1845 1912 Swansea (SWA)
1847 1919 Cheltenham (CNM)
1851 1924 Oxford (OXF)
1900 1929 Bristol TM (BRI)
1903 1934 Plymouth(PLY)_FX
1903 1934 Penzance(PNZ) FO
1915 1942 Swansea (SWA)

Occasionally, the departure
time or final destination of
these services may change, due
to engineering work. When
this happens, the restriction
also applies to equivalent
service.

Restrictions are lifted on
First Great Western services
on December 24th, and 27th to
31st December 2010 inclusive.


Peter

 

[bnm]

Thanks for that update from NFM 06 Peter, I've yet to get my hands on a copy from 'alternate' sources! Also thanks to John@Home for the confirmation that I can use a split with tickets from a different start/end point to the split station. Obviously obeying routeing and time restrictions!

In my correspondence with FGW earlier this year, the Fares Manager at Swindon said that, in all likelihood the 'P7' restriction would be updated for NFM 06 to include the list of barred train in the evening peak on CDRs and ODTs, so that the information tallied with Journey Planners and 'The Manual'.

However, what of the restriction 'CH' for return travel from London on BAN-PAD CDRs and ODTs? Have FGW asked Chiltern to amend their NFM 06 entry to include the list of barred trains? If not, whilst it may cause me grief with a Train Manager, it would be legally unenforceable if I were slapped with a UFN.

The current NFM entry for BAN-PAD CDRs etc with code 'CH' says:

RETURN TRAVEL:
By any train except those
timed to depart Mondays -
Fridays before 0930 if
travelling via London. Valid
on any Chiltern Railways
service from London Marylebone.

 

[tony_mac]

If the restrictions are no longer advertised to the public, then I agree with yorkie

The journey planners tell you the tickets aren't valid, as do the screens at Paddington as well as announcencements.
I don't know how obvious it would be before buying your ticket - but they do make it very clear before the train departs.

But why would I pay 90p more for a ticket when my regular trip is a day return?

Because of the restrictions to CDRs that we are talking about.

 

[bnm]

Because of the restrictions to CDRs that we are talking about.

:roll:The SVR from Banbury to London Terminals has the same restriction code (CH) as the CDR though.

 

[tony_mac]

These restrictions do seem to be separate to the ticket restrictions.
(there have different restriction codes the other way round)

 

[bnm]

These restrictions do seem to be separate to the ticket restrictions.
(there have different restriction codes the other way round)

Again..... Eh?

 

[tony_mac]

That didn't make much sense, did it!

The CDR restrictions on HST trains out of Paddington appear to be entirely separate to the individual ticket restrictions, so I don't think that it matters that the CDR and SVR have the same restriction code.

The second thing was just that I had been looking and London to Banbury, where the SVR and CDR do have different restriction codes. It just seemed a bit odd that the SVR and CDR from Banbury both have the same restriction code.

 

[yorkie]

Put it this way, if anyone is up for a legal challenge, here is one where we could win. If anyone is up for it, get in touch and there are plenty of us that can provide (NON-LEGAL) advice. I would also recommend getting legal advice. I am up for a fight and I believe it is totally winnable (IANAL).

 

[bnm]

Put it this way, if anyone is up for a legal challenge, here is one where we could win. If anyone is up for it, get in touch and there are plenty of us that can provide (NON-LEGAL) advice. I would also recommend getting legal advice. I am up for a fight and I believe it is totally winnable (IANAL).

Well after NFM 06 goes live and I travel to London on a day trip, I'll try the split using a Banbury to Paddington CDR*. But only if the list of barred fast trains hasn't been included under the 'CH' restriction in the new NFM. I obviously will not be able to do a Didcot split anymore if I want to return in the evening peak on a 'fast' as the 'P7' restriction has been amended to list the barred trains.

*Journey Planners allow use of 'fast' services out of Paddington on a DID-PAD CDR with a change at Reading, listing only SW bound services (ones that are on the barred list!) via the Berks and Hants. I've not been able to force them to come up with a Didcot change. I put in Didcot as a via point and it still throws up the same options with connections into XC services at RDG which bypass DID!