Splitting tickets at a London zone boundary

[redreni]

Just planning a day trip to from Slade Green to Weston Super Mare and getting results from the Railforums / Trainsplit journey planner that are not quite what I expected.

It suggests splitting the fare are Didcot and Swindon, which is fine, but it's how I get to Didcot that is the trouble. (The requirement for the train to stop at Didcot is a pain, but I have a Network Railcard so it's worth it, otherwise I'd have to forego the discount after Reading.)

It suggests an off-peak day return from Slade Green to Didcot Parkway, which would be fine except it's more expensive than a Z1-6 day travelcard plus an off-peak return from West Drayton to Didcot Parkway.

For some journeys it does suggest a day travelcard plus a ticket for onward travel (usually an advance), but the second ticket is always from another station such as Southall or Ealing Broadway, and it always returns an itinerary that uses a slow train (usually the Elizabeth Line) as far as Reading. It's as if the journey planner doesn't know that the train needn't stop at the station where you switch from a travelcard to another ticket.

I would prefer to buy flexible tickets and take a train directly from Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads, which would obviously need to call at Didcot Parkway and Swindon but need not call (and would not call) at any of the local stops in West London. Would I be right in thinking this is permitted if I buy a Z1-6 day travelcard (£10) plus an off-peak day return from West Drayton to Didcot Parkway (£12.85)? This is cheaper than the off-peak day return from Slade Green to Didcot Parkway and, obviously, has other advantages such as bus travel at the London end, break of journey in London, etc.

The other thing the journey planner was doing last night, which I can't seem to replicate now, is recommending that I use a day travelcard in conjunction with an off-peak day return from Southall to Didcot Parkway (which seems to be the same price as the West Drayton to Didcot Parkway ticket). Admittedly that was on an itinerary where the train called at both Southall and West Drayton, so it's not bad advice per se (in that it won't get people fined, it will just put them on a slow train unnecessarily). Wouldn't that ticket combination be invalid if the train didn't call at either Southall or West Drayton, though? 14.3 of the NRCoT permits travel on a train that doesn't call at the station where you change from a daily zonal ticket to another ticket, but the last station where one ticket is valid and the first station where the other ticket is valid must be the same station. Southall is not the last station (or first station on the return leg) where the day travelcard is valid.

 

[Adam Williams]

It's as if the journey planner doesn't know that the train needn't stop at the station where you switch from a travelcard to another ticket.

I suspect it'll turn out to be more involved than this - zonal fare split rules should be a fairly fundamental axiom, something to dig into a bit more next week though.

 

[Fenchurch SP]

Does the travelcard count as a season? If so then your train would not need to call at Didcot Parkway.

 

[Watershed]

Does the travelcard count as a season? If so then your train would not need to call at Didcot Parkway.

An outboundary Day Travelcard is essentially a single ticket that represents a return to Boundary Zone 6 as well as a Zones 1-6 Travelcard. So non-stop splits are permitted in combination with the zonal London validity, but not in combination with the 'return to Boundary Zone 6' element.

 

[redreni]

An outboundary Day Travelcard is essentially a single ticket that represents a return to Boundary Zone 6 as well as a Zones 1-6 Travelcard. So non-stop splits are permitted in combination with the zonal London validity, but not in combination with the 'return to Boundary Zone 6' element.

But we're talking about an inboundary day travelcard used in combination with a day return from West Drayton to Didcot Parkway.

An outboundary day travelcard from Didcot Parkway wouldn't be valid for the journey I'm making anyway, as I'd be using the "return to boundary zone 6" element in the wrong order.

Does the travelcard count as a season? If so then your train would not need to call at Didcot Parkway.

See above. The tickets from West Drayton to Didcot Parkway and from Didcot Parkway to Swindon are both day returns, so the train definitely has to stop at Didcot Parkway. This is an inconvenience I can live with. Using a train that calls at West Drayton - not so much.

I only highlight it because there appear to be much faster, valid itineraries possible on those tickets than what the Trainsplit journey planner is able to recommend, causing it to recommend slower or more expensive journeys instead.

 

[bkhtele]

Using West Drayton instead of a boundary zone 6 is strictly not valid with a travelcard which is why I believe the site is directing you to stopping trains. Actual GWR practice seems that they accept them as they are often sold by GWR ticket offices instead of zone 6 tickets

 

[Watershed]

Using West Drayton instead if a boundary zone 6 is strictly not valid with a travelcard which is why I believe the site is directing you to stopping trains. Actual GWR practice seems that they accept them as they are often sold by GWR ticket offices instead of zone 6 tickets

It is valid, it's just that split ticketing sites don't sell non-stop splits yet. I'm not sure whether RDG have signed off on this yet - at least until now, one of their split ticketing accreditation requirements has been that retailers ensure the suggested itinerary has an open call (i.e. not just pick up/set down only) at all stations where they split.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Can't see why a Z1-6 1 day travelcard and a West Drayton - Didcot Parkway (or Z6 to Didcot) CDR wouldn't be valid on the GW fast trains. Many eons ago, GW wouldn't accept what they regarded as 'NSE' tickets on their pristine trains but that all went about 15 years ago? Of course, when TfL finally manage to abolish Day Travelcards, this journey will be more expensive!

 

[redreni]

Can't see why a Z1-6 1 day travelcard and a West Drayton - Didcot Parkway (or Z6 to Didcot) CDR wouldn't be valid on the GW fast trains. Many eons ago, GW wouldn't accept what they regarded as 'NSE' tickets on their pristine trains but that all went about 15 years ago? Of course, when TfL finally manage to abolish Day Travelcards, this journey will be more expensive!

I lived in Slough and worked in Reading for a bit back in 2003. Never had a problem using the same tickets on First Great Western's HSTs as I would on Thames Trains.

I can well imagine they'd have been unwilling to accept travelcards in combination with tickets to a zone boundary or a boundary station on their fast trains, though. In fact I had a run-in with them about it a few years later. I seem to remember the Conditions of Carriage at the time were a bit more ambiguous than they are now, but it was still reasonably clear that the train didn't need to stop at the boundary station despite FGW's staff's absolute insistence that it did.

It is valid, it's just that split ticketing sites don't sell non-stop splits yet. I'm not sure whether RDG have signed off on this yet - at least until now, one of their split ticketing accreditation requirements has been that retailers ensure the suggested itinerary has an open call (i.e. not just pick up/set down only) at all stations where they split.

Thanks for this info.

I just printed Part D of the NRCoT ready for tomorrow as I've had problems in the past being let through the barriers at Paddington platforms 2 to 5 (or whatever it is) on an inboundary travelcard + another ticket combination and I wanted to have the rules in my back pocket.

The RDG's restrictions would appear to be out of line with condition 14, wouldn't they?

I think the rule that it has to be an open call, while reasonable in and of itself, is presented in the NRCoT in a way that is most unfair to passengers given that anybody's plain English definition of "call" will include calling only to set down or only to pick up. I've heard guards and train managers announce that "we're going to call at Watford Junction to pick up passengers only". I appreciate they've put the definition they like in Annex B, but that's 15 pages further on. Nobody's going to know what they mean by "call" in condition 14.2 unless they've read that far. So it could be a lot clearer.

It's not as if the passenger can just take the approach of assuming that anything that you can't get a journey planner to show isn't valid, since we've established there are valid splits that are perfectly sensible and not at all esoteric, like the one I'm doing, that journey planners will not show.

Which brings me to the final part of my little rant - where do RDG get off telling retailers they have to enforce the bit that works against the passenger (14.2) as if the bit that qualifies it (14.3), which might be helpful to passengers, didn't exist? It's almost as if the interests of passengers weren't foremost in their mindset.

 

[Watershed]

I just printed Part D of the NRCoT ready for tomorrow as I've had problems in the past being let through the barriers at Paddington platforms 2 to 5 (or whatever it is) on an inboundary travelcard + another ticket combination and I wanted to have the rules in my back pocket.

Sadly, in my experience, no amount of paperwork will convince certain staff that they are wrong. They will pull out all the usual excuses - most commonly "I have been in this job X years, do you think you know better than me?"

The RDG's restrictions would appear to be out of line with condition 14, wouldn't they?

They may have been lifted, as TrainSplit now offer the option of buying a tickets for use in combination with an existing Travelcard/60+ Oyster card etc.

In any event, limiting the tickets that licensed retailers can suggest isn't the same thing as saying that such combinations aren't valid. To a certain degree, it's understandable if they don't want random members of the public (who may have little or no knowledge of railway ticketing) to be confused by a split at a station their train doesn't stop at.

Restricting the stations you must pass through, rather than stop, also doesn't make it entirely obvious which trains you can and can't take - whilst tools such as RTT enable those who are clued up to check this, how would the Man on the Clapham Omnibus know?

I think the rule that it has to be an open call, while reasonable in and of itself, is presented in the NRCoT in a way that is most unfair to passengers given that anybody's plain English definition of "call" will include calling only to set down or only to pick up. I've heard guards and train managers announce that "we're going to call at Watford Junction to pick up passengers only". I appreciate they've put the definition they like in Annex B, but that's 15 pages further on. Nobody's going to know what they mean by "call" in condition 14.2 unless they've read that far. So it could be a lot clearer.

The capitalisation of the (normally uncapitalised) word Call should be ringing alarm bells with anyone who's familiar with contracts and legalese.

Whilst it would be a lot clearer if the definition (which, AFAICT, isn't used anywhere else) were in the term itself, how many people are realistically going to be reading the NRCoT anyway? Probably a tiny minority of passengers. That's certainly not an excuse in my book, but it's likely the kind of argument the RDG would make. They want to have their cake and eat it, naturally!

It's not as if the passenger can just take the approach of assuming that anything that you can't get a journey planner to show isn't valid, since we've established there are valid splits that are perfectly sensible and not at all esoteric, like the one I'm doing, that journey planners will not show.

Indeed, although as noted above, the fact that intermediate passing points aren't really published in any official way (certainly not anywhere that the average person would think to check) means that the validity of non-stop splits is somewhat difficult to determine for the layman, in any event.

Which brings me to the final part of my little rant - where do RDG get off telling retailers they have to enforce the bit that works against the passenger (14.2) as if the bit that qualifies it (14.3), which might be helpful to passengers, didn't exist? It's almost as if the interests of passengers weren't foremost in their mindset.

The RDG not having passengers' interests first? Well I never!

 

[redreni]

They may have been lifted, as TrainSplit now offer the option of buying a tickets for use in combination with an existing Travelcard/60+ Oyster card etc.

In any event, limiting the tickets that licensed retailers can suggest isn't the same thing as saying that such combinations aren't valid. To a certain degree, it's understandable if they don't want random members of the public (who may have little or no knowledge of railway ticketing) to be confused by a split at a station their train doesn't stop at.

Restricting the stations you must pass through, rather than stop, also doesn't make it entirely obvious which trains you can and can't take - whilst tools such as RTT enable those who are clued up to check this, how would the Man on the Clapham Omnibus know?

Yes but in my case I didn't already hold a travelcard. I queried a journey from Slade Green to Weston Super Mare and was offered a faster journey on a train that doesn't stop at West Drayton with a Maltese cross ticket that cost more than the inboundary travelcard plus the ticket from West Drayton. I was also offered the option of an inboundary travelcard plus a ticket from Southall to Didcot (plus further splits after that), but only for much slower journeys using the Elizabeth Line as far as Reading (rightly so, in a way, as a ticket from Southall wouldn't qualify for a non-stop split under 14.3 since Southall isn't the last station where the travelcard is valid).

The advanced option where you specify you already hold a travelcard is useful. It does seem to be the only way, though, to get an itinerary including a non-stop split. Useful if you know how much the travelcard is and want to compare the price of a ticket from the zone boundary against a through ticket to work out if you should buy the travelcard. More useful if you already hold a travelcard. What it doesn't seem to be doing is actively suggesting the quickest and cheapest valid option where that is to buy an inboundary travelcard and a ticket from the zone boundary or boundary station and to do a non-stop split.

It is precisely because the passenger may not know when a travelcard plus another ticket with a non-stop split is the best option, and may not know which combinations are valid or what the non-stop station passes on their chosen train are, that it would be really nice if journey planners did know.

 

[Adam Williams]

I'm going to bring this up at a meeting next week with the journey planning folks.

I don't (currently) know of any RDG requirements in this area, but I do wonder now if a decision was made to "keep things simpler" and only consider split points at places the trains call - even when the zonal tickets the pax holds allow otherwise. This would not be the first decision made to reduce customer hassle/the risk of being stopped from travelling.

Any decisions here would all predate me, I think, in any case.