St Pancras before HS1

[Mikw]

I never had much occasion to use the old St Pancras but it did have the advantage of the gents being free. On the couple of instances when I went in to use the facilities it felt very much like a grander version of Broad Street

The gents is free in the "new" station too!
I remember the old one. Dirty and full of Diesel exhaust stains. But a much shorter walk from the Entrance to catch the MML than the current "bolted on" bit is.

New station is marvelously impressive though!

 

[thedbdiboy]

Here are a few of my 1980s St Pancras snaps

 

[PeterC]

The gents is free in the "new" station too!
I remember the old one. Dirty and full of Diesel exhaust stains. But a much shorter walk from the Entrance to catch the MML than the current "bolted on" bit is.

New station is marvelously impressive though!

At that time I think that it was the only BR London terminus with a free toilet. IIRC departures were flighted so he whole station seemed to go to sleep for most of each hour.

 

[sprunt]

I remember that there was a good fish and chip shop on the edge of the station on Euston Road. I don't know if that going had anything to do with the remodelling of the station though.

My other main memory is of lots of wood panelling, but looking at the photos here that's obviously just the ticket office I'm remembering. Don't know why that's such an overriding memory though.

 

[Rescars]

I remember that there was a good fish and chip shop on the edge of the station on Euston Road. I don't know if that going had anything to do with the remodelling of the station though.

My other main memory is of lots of wood panelling, but looking at the photos here that's obviously just the ticket office I'm remembering. Don't know why that's such an overriding memory though.

Speaking of good food and nice interiors, has anyone been watching Masterchef? Last night's programme shows that the Midland Grand has scrubbed up very well since HS1. They've even replaced the stair carpet. Some of us may recall the original being removed after H&S deemed it unsafe.

 

[swt_passenger]

It was my understanding that the floor the trains ran on was a structural tie between the bottoms of the arches to stop them spreading at the bottom. Then how come they could cut a socking great hole to access the undercroft without the whole lot collapsing?

They cast a completely new concrete slab joining all the structural columns, and large enough to allow the access routes.
I explained this in reply to a post of yours in an earlier thread, last year:

St Pancras Undercroft

I wonder if any of you learned folk might be able to point me in the direction of a good source of information and images of the undercroft in it's heyday prior to rebuilding. Various permutations of search terms are not really yielding what I'm hoping to find. The best I've found so far is...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[GS250]

I occasionally used St Pancras station in the late 1960s, travelling from Nottingham. My main memory is the overwhelming stench of diesel fumes. I also remember the poor loudspeaker system that made it hard to understand announcements. I think there was a notice apologising for the poor sound quality, explaining that BR had intended to close the station so the system had not been renewed.

I moved to London in 1968, and clearly recall meeting my fiancée off the Nottingham train one Saturday morning and having no problem parking my car in the forecourt of the station. I think there was no charge.

Weren't the Nottingham and Sheffield services fairly run down during this period too? Often lacking catering facilities and being the last IC route to receive MK2 carriages?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Weren't the Nottingham and Sheffield services fairly run down during this period too? Often lacking catering facilities and being the last IC route to receive MK2 carriages?

A lot depends on exactly what you mean here, eg by "during this period" - there were zillioins of changes in the 1960s! - and "Mk2 carriages".

The main Sheffield expresses went to air-con stock (2D and 2E I think) in either September or October, 1973. The buffet-restaurants in each set were, of course, still Mk 1s.

I don't know if that makes the Midland the last IC route to go air-con or not. At that time, I'd have thought there were non-air con on Liverpool Street - Norwich and Kings Lynn, and surely some Scottish IC routes?

The semi-fast trains were still largely Mk 1s up to 1973, with the odd non-air-con Mk2s coming in up to 1975, after which I rarely saw them, so I forget.

I have a quite vivid memory of St Pancras in the late '50s. It gave an impression of uncared for grandeur - the hugely impressive roof and hotel, but all rather dark and dirty. Lots of Black Fives, I think, with maybe a Crab and a Jubilee? I am afraid my recording of numbers didn't stretch to where and when spotted. It was busy, certainly, and I particularly remember being surprised at finding a train of through-gangway stock (most suburban services weren't in those days) heading for Tilbury. I think it even had destination boards on the side. IIRC a Fowler 2-6-4T at the head. At the age of 10 or so I hadn't read about the Midland acquisition of the LT&S.

Crabs were relatively uncommon on the Midland, at least the southern end, and certainly on passenger workings. And a lot would depend on exactly you went in the "late 50s". There would certainlly have been Class 5s (LMS and Standards) and Jubilees. From 1958 you would have seen Scots and Brits, although the Brits started to disappear from about 61 on the Manchesters (they got cracked frames from the Derby over the Peak Forest route). Some worked in from Leeds and Bradford though. But by lae 62, steam was uncommon on scheduled passenger workings.

 

[eastwestdivide]

The semi-fast trains were still largely Mk 1s up to 1973…

When I was spotting at Leicester 1981-83ish, the every-2-hours St P most stations* to Derby semifast was Mk1s. Ditto the epic Sundays 0746 St P to Manchester via all sorts of diversions depending on engineering works.

*St Albans, Luton, Bedford, Wellingboro, Kettering, Mkt Harboro, Leicester, Loughboro, Long Eaton(?) Derby

 

[Magdalia]

The main Sheffield expresses went to air-con stock (2D and 2E I think) in either September or October, 1973. The buffet-restaurants in each set were, of course, still Mk 1s.

That would fit with the first ETH class 45s in 1973. I think that the air con coaches were new.

I don't know if that makes the Midland the last IC route to go air-con or not. At that time, I'd have thought there were non-air con on Liverpool Street - Norwich and Kings Lynn, and surely some Scottish IC routes?

Liverpool Street-Norwich went aircon in 1980, using stock cascaded from the West of England. Liverpool Street-Kings Lynn never had aircon loco hauled trains apart from a few odd workings using Norwich line sets.

Weren't the Nottingham and Sheffield services fairly run down during this period too?

Some of the intermediate stations were very run down, I used to visit the old Bedford Midland Road in the 1970s which was in a very bad way.

 

[Wolfie]

I have a couple questions on what St Pancras was like before HS1 was built:

• How many platforms were there?
• What was all the extra space used for after the beer storage was no longer used after the 60s
• Did it feel massively empty, such a large building for just the MML

In the early-mid 80s rundown, neglected, grimey and polluted - diesels (HSTs) in the main trainshed. Felt like it was waiting to be closed.

 

[Lemmy282]

Went to London a few times in the 70's, and remember it being a dark and cavernous place. Next visit was probably for a course for work in about 1997 or 98 and it didn't look much different, but the old wood panelled booking office had closed and been replaced by a portakabin affair I think. 'Shires' bar was still in the corner though. Anyway I missed my train back home and had to wait an hour, on a Friday evening, and was surprised how few trains there seemed to be compared to Kings Cross.
Next visit was after HS1, what a revelation, clean, bright and very busy. Long walk from the MML platforms though!

 

[Bald Rick]

I remember that there was a good fish and chip shop on the edge of the station on Euston Road. I don't know if that going had anything to do with the remodelling of the station though.

That was my go to chippy, post ‘refreshment’ in the Euston / KX area.

It did indeed close for the redevelopment, specifically for the new Met line ticket hall. There was a Boots next door too.

 

[Taunton]

A lot depends on exactly what you mean here, eg by "during this period" - there were zillioins of changes in the 1960s! - and "Mk2 carriages".

The main Sheffield expresses went to air-con stock (2D and 2E I think) in either September or October, 1973. The buffet-restaurants in each set were, of course, still Mk 1s.

I recall this being an issue of the time, that the more recent, and better condition, Mk1 and early Mk2 stock, which had the 100mph Commonwealth or B4 bogies, was raided from the Midland lines in 1965-67 by the WCML of the LMR when the full electrification was introduced, while 10 year old dilapidated early Mk1 vehicles came the other way. That the last Mk1 rake in the country still in maroon livery was based at Derby into the mid-1970s (past comments here refer) tells a story of LMR priorities.

 

[edwin_m]

I recall this being an issue of the time, that the more recent, and better condition, Mk1 and early Mk2 stock, which had the 100mph Commonwealth or B4 bogies, was raided from the Midland lines in 1965-67 by the WCML of the LMR when the full electrification was introduced, while 10 year old dilapidated early Mk1 vehicles came the other way. That the last Mk1 rake in the country still in maroon livery was based at Derby into the mid-1970s (past comments here refer) tells a story of LMR priorities.

The reason/excuse might have been the electric services needing electric heated coaches, which tended to be the newer ones.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I recall this being an issue of the time, that the more recent, and better condition, Mk1 and early Mk2 stock, which had the 100mph Commonwealth or B4 bogies, was raided from the Midland lines in 1965-67 by the WCML of the LMR when the full electrification was introduced, while 10 year old dilapidated early Mk1 vehicles came the other way. That the last Mk1 rake in the country still in maroon livery was based at Derby into the mid-1970s (past comments here refer) tells a story of LMR priorities.

You could well be correct, but as my memory serves, the Midland did not have many - if any - of the early Mk 2 stock in those years in any case. My feeling is that the early Mk 2 stock (ie non air-con, and probably not even Mk 2C) only started coming in in dribs and drabs sort of 1973 time.

Again, not being dogmatic on this, my feeling is that by 1970, the vast majority of the Sheffield services had all 100 mph stock, mostly with Commonwealth bogies (even if they could not achieve more than 90 mph officially). The semi-fast trains were very much mixed some on B1s, some on Commonwealths, some, but fewer as I recall, on B4s.

And oh boy, did some of those on the B1s hunt on certain sections of cwr - I seem to remember one such section around Kegworth, north of Loughboro' - it actually felt quite dangerous at 85-90 mph.

I assume the maroon Mk 1s were all on B1s, but I never checked.

I'm almost certain the air-con Mk 2s arrived in October 73. I remember one early one morning that month, in LMR CM&EE building in Derby, crossing on a corridor bridge between the buildings and looking out of the window towards the south, seeing what must have been the 07.45 ex St Pancras to Sheffield arriving. It would have been about 09.00 <edit, no more like 09.30> hence the sun was low, illuminating the Cl 45, in pristine BR blue, and the air-con Mk 2s in tow - all gleaming in the strong light. And I thought, great! At last the Midland has air-con.

This would have been in the first or second week of their arrival. It was about the same time that Brian Clough left/was pushed out of Derby County, the city was in uproar, and I suspect industrial output at Brel Works and Rolls-Royce plunged 25% as a result. And I also suspect the Derby Evening Telegraph never noticed their nice new express trains to London as a result!

 

[edwin_m]

You could well be correct, but as my memory serves, the Midland did not have many - if any - of the early Mk 2 stock in those years in any case. My feeling is that the early Mk 2 stock (ie non air-con, and probably not even Mk 2C) only started coming in in dribs and drabs sort of 1973 time.

If the dribs and drabs was individual coaches rather than full sets, then they would most likely have been original series Mk2. Mk2a onwards were air braked so couldn't work with most older stock.

 

[GS250]

The reason/excuse might have been the electric services needing electric heated coaches, which tended to be the newer ones.

Plus the WCML was wanting to run it's express passenger services at 100mph. Don't think the poor old MML stood a chance of retaining it's newer mk1s.

Out of interest was the limit generally 90mph on the MML? Obviously the 'Peaks' were (theoretically) limited to this speed but didn't the odd 47 turn up on the MML back then?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Plus the WCML was wanting to run it's express passenger services at 100mph. Don't think the poor old MML stood a chance of retaining it's newer mk1s.

Out of interest was the limit generally 90mph on the MML? Obviously the 'Peaks' were (theoretically) limited to this speed but didn't the odd 47 turn up on the MML back then?

Yes, the line speed was 90 mph.

And yes, the odd 47 did 'turn up' now and again. In fact, when the Master Cutler was first diverted to the Midland, the up train was regularly a Tinsley 47 for a time. I think this was a year or two after April 66 - somehow the ER clung onto running the Cutler into KX, even though BRB had declared St Pancras to be the 'official' Inter-City route for Sheffield. (Of course, the GN route was faster.)

Naturally, even with a 47, the maximum permissible speed was limited by the line speed, but both 45s and 47s would quite often top this if running late, and the high 90s and 100 mph was achieved, especially either side of Bedford.

In the 1990s, when 47s worked the peak-hour semi-fasts (everything else being HSTs), a pal of mine who was BR commuted to London and had done for years. He was not footplate staff, but he had a good relationship with some of the crews, and once was allowed to drive north of Luton. He told me had worked a 47 up to 104 mph on the clock somewhere in the Flitwick-Ampthill-Stewartby area (I've forgotten exactly where) on one of these trains. He is not a boastful type, so I believe him - although last time we talked he'd forgotten the details of the incident.

Wouldn't happen today, of course, and even then that must have been pretty risky for the driver!

 

[AY1975]

I never had much occasion to use the old St Pancras but it did have the advantage of the gents being free.

As I recall it latterly had entrance turnstiles and you had to pay 20p. Going back even further, I seem to remember that until about the early to mid 1980s the WC cubicles had coinboxes where you had to pay 2p (or maybe even latterly 4p (2x2p) or 5p). At least the gents' urinals were free in those days, though. Somewhere there's a thread on the present day 50p charge for the toilets at Glasgow Queen Street.

If you were in-the-know you could often avoid paying by sneaking into the Shires Bar and using their toilets, though.

 

[70014IronDuke]

If the dribs and drabs was individual coaches rather than full sets, then they would most likely have been original series Mk2. Mk2a onwards were air braked so couldn't work with most older stock.

Yeah, good point. I'm sure I remember the odd Mk II appearing come 73 time in the semi-fast sets, but they were not common. Wish I'd taken more note now!

 

[lostwin(m)]

If it's any help, my contemporaneous notes from '85 have a number of references to photographs of 'Midland Main Line' trains. I feel that that is what i always called it from the start of my spotting days in '82 based in Leicester - I don't recall any alternative name.

 

[BeijingDave]

I remember going around 1992. At that time, my dad used to travel to London for work regularly. Sometimes he would take me and we would stay over. I was twelve.

We obviously used to arrive into Euston from the north west, which was a grimy dump in some ways, but always busy and great for spotting.

Because I was into trains, my dad said we could always visit one other big station for an hour while we were there.

So I had seen Euston, plus Paddington, a recently refurbished Liverpool Street, Kings Cross, Waterloo, Victoria, and next on my list was St Pancras.

I expected it to be like the others in some ways (a busy mainline station like Euston, Paddington or KX, with loads of intercity and some more local traffic), because I was not really the type of spotter who pored over timetables.

I remember being shocked at how big yet so utterly desolate it was. Barely any people or trains ("Aren't Sheffield and Nottingham big cities with lots of people arriving like Leeds and York?" I wondered). I think there were 2 trains in the 6 platforms when I arrived, and that didn't change much in the hour I remember being there.

It completely jarred with my expectations.

Thankfully it was never torn down.

 

[Snapper]

There's a wide variety of pictures from St Pancras from 1989 onwards here. The second gallery of building HS1 includes some 'behind the scenes' shots of work converting St Pancras for HS1 services.

Search

Paul Bigland Photography

paulbigland.zenfolio.com

Building High Speed 1 (HS1)

As construction of High Speed 2 has now begun I thought It would be a good idea to put all my old pictures of the construction of High Speed 1 together in one gallery. I'll add more as they're scanned, but here's the first few to kick off with.

paulbigland.zenfolio.com

 

[trebor79]

The 'old' St Pancras was actually quite a depressing place from memory (late 70s early 80s). Seem to recall it was rather unkempt and saw a fairly low frequency service in general? Two DMU suburban services per hour, 1 semi fast to Bedford and 1 all shacks to Luton. Expresses to Nottingham and Sheffield every hour too. I guess though this was about in keeping with the period though? The fact the wires were up for seemingly ages but the same old life expired DMU's used to trudge back and forth seemed to sum up the situation.

I remember going around 1992. At that time, my dad used to travel to London for work regularly. Sometimes he would take me and we would stay over. I was twelve.

We obviously used to arrive into Euston from the north west, which was a grimy dump in some ways, but always busy and great for spotting.

Because I was into trains, my dad said we could always visit one other big station for an hour while we were there.

So I had seen Euston, plus Paddington, a recently refurbished Liverpool Street, Kings Cross, Waterloo, Victoria, and next on my list was St Pancras.

I expected it to be like the others in some ways (a busy mainline station like Euston, Paddington or KX, with loads of intercity and some more local traffic), because I was not really the type of spotter who pored over timetables.

I remember being shocked at how big yet so utterly desolate it was. Barely any people or trains ("Aren't Sheffield and Nottingham big cities with lots of people arriving like Leeds and York?" I wondered). I think there were 2 trains in the 6 platforms when I arrived, and that didn't change much in the hour I remember being there.

It completely jarred with my expectations.

Thankfully it was never torn down.

Yep, I remember going with a schoolmate int eh mid 90's to stay with his older brother for the weekend (he was at university in London). We spent a whole day just riding around on the tube and DLR, and for some reason decided to visit St Pancras.
I remember being awestruck by the roof and cavernous space but also by just how quiet and empty the place was. We wandered around for a while and nothing arrived or departed, totally at odds with every other London terminus.
I recall the platform and concourse surfaces were a hotchpotch of different materials, including badly laid tarmac on top of whatever was underneath. The whole place was filthy and had an air of decay and faded grandeur seeping from the hotel next door.

Unpopular opinion, although the restoration is magnificent, I can't help but feel the place has no atmosphere or soul anymore. It's just another grand old building that's been facaded and filled with something new. The glass partitions, champagne bar etc break up the sense of voluminous space so it doesn't have that same awe-inspiring impact. And I hate the HS1 and domestic platforms tacked onto the end of the trainshed with their low roofs further spoiling the original sense of scale. Yes, I know they were deliberately designed like that because heritage rules said they couldn't extend or ape the trainshed roof, but it looks crap and also makes those platforms cramped and dingy.
I'm happy I can still just about remember it before it got trashed, and I'm pleased we went that day to have a gawp at it.

 

[calopez]

Unpopular opinion, although the restoration is magnificent, I can't help but feel the place has no atmosphere or soul anymore. It's just another grand old building that's been facaded and filled with something new. The glass partitions, champagne bar etc break up the sense of voluminous space so it doesn't have that same awe-inspiring impact. And I hate the HS1 and domestic platforms tacked onto the end of the trainshed with their low roofs further spoiling the original sense of scale. Yes, I know they were deliberately designed like that because heritage rules said they couldn't extend or ape the trainshed roof, but it looks crap and also makes those platforms cramped and dingy.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that!

 

[AlbertBeale]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that!

There are lots of us!

 

[GS250]

Yep, I remember going with a schoolmate int eh mid 90's to stay with his older brother for the weekend (he was at university in London). We spent a whole day just riding around on the tube and DLR, and for some reason decided to visit St Pancras.
I remember being awestruck by the roof and cavernous space but also by just how quiet and empty the place was. We wandered around for a while and nothing arrived or departed, totally at odds with every other London terminus.
I recall the platform and concourse surfaces were a hotchpotch of different materials, including badly laid tarmac on top of whatever was underneath. The whole place was filthy and had an air of decay and faded grandeur seeping from the hotel next door.

Yes that was my exact recollection of St Pancras. Quite a few times as a young kid my dad would take me to London's termini. Kings Cross and Paddington were the most enjoyable. Even the platform ends at Euston were a good place to be purely due to the amount of movements. We used to pop into St Pancras after visiting KX and yes it was usually pretty dead. Maybe one loco hauled set and a DMU at the most. Occasionally a parcels train would turn up. It all seemed to have a similar run down and doomed feel of Marylebone even if that thankfully wasn't going to be the case.

We did see an 86 turn up once on some kind of staff special to Bedford. Must have been around 1981.

 

[Pigeon]

Oh, I think it too! And I would add to the list: chopping ruddy great holes in the floor to make sure that all the garish commercial rubbish they've got underneath it intrudes into the station as much as possible, instead of keeping it decently out of sight where it doesn't ruin the atmosphere. On top of that, I despise the way it has transformed the example of engineering elegance which the original structure was into an example of a brute-force engineering abortion.

Not to mention that if you're an ordinary passenger you don't even get the use of it, you're shoved off to that horrible petrol station bit glued on the end, with an interminable trudge to the Underground to boot.

They should have just cleaned it up, and apart from that left it as it was. Use the capacity to help reverse the chronic neglect of the Midland route so it's needed again, similar to Marylebone; and never mind trying to bodge the Channel Tunnel link into it, when it doesn't remotely fit and sticks out the end like a six foot corpse in a three foot coffin. Any new terminus for that should have been sited and designed for possible future conversion into a through station connecting to domestic lines, whereas what we got makes that nearly as difficult as if it had been the actual intention.

I loved the atmosphere of the old station with its sense of vast volume and stillness in separation from the craziness outside. But now the alterations have pretty much rogered it.

 

[BeijingDave]

I like the new station. And its current setup is convenient for onward connections, rather than having to trudge next door, laden with suitcases, to Kings Cross or Euston if the MML trains had been diverted there (to keep all services inside the old train shed when HS1 was built).*

*As I do when going back to Warrington. People from Leicester, Sheffield, Derby or Nottingham can be grateful for missing that 'experience'.