Thyat's because the Thameslink service on its two platforms delivers more passengers than all the high level platforms (EMR, SE & ES). Width of platforms, gatelines, Lifts and escalators are all about handling vast quantities of passengers.
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St Pancras safety concerns at top of EMR P1-4 escalator (11/02)
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Travelmonkey
Member
St Pancras is more style over substance, its a bit like a reverse new street with rammed elevated platforms rather than a dreary down bellow, I understand retail is "important" but the shops & track arrangements could have been done far better,
Blindtraveler
Established Member
Here here
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Within the obvious constraints of a Grade 1 listed building, Eurostar train lengths, the need for appropriate security, customs and immigration separation, a canal at a fixed level just outside, a mesh of tube lines, Thameslink and a subterranean river underneath and the surrounding street pattern can I ask how you (or anyone else) could have done it so much better?
You talk about ‘retail’ but apart from Smiths, Greggs, Pret and Costa; all of which are wholly within the listed structure, there is no retail near the top of the escalators except the champagne bar which is ‘behind’ them, well away from the platforms and barriers.
Travelmonkey
Member
Do a HS2 play where the nearby station takes some load, reopen (or open to start with) the calling points for Eurostar such as the White Elephant of Stratford International & Ashford/Ebbsfleet similar to how old oak common will take the HS2 pressure otherwise hand the Corby trains to Themeslink so they can go into the core leaving the upper platforms for the intercities & HS services,
Apart from your suggestion about TL extending to Corby, a la Hunstanton to Peterborough, doing anything involving HS1 services is a non-starter. of course, more '700s would be needed to be allowed to operate through the core and a different style of accommodation would be out of the question as all '700s would need complete diagram flexibility. The residual EMR services should be workable from four platforms given that they will be constrined by the paths on the fasts.
Deepgreen
Established Member
I can't imagine the space at the top of the escalators is more than on the various platforms to which passengers could disperse to await their trains, so the chance of a dangerous situation developing at the top of the escalator is far greater than on the platforms. Leaving aside operational preferences, from a safety perspective people getting off a train aren't being inexorably thrust forward as they are on an escalator, notwithstanding the presence of stop buttons.
People getting to the end of an escalator who then stop and faff around trying to get the handle up on their wheely suitcase is a regular occurrence at St Pancras. Almost always entirely unaware of the commotion behind them as everyone else starts trying to work out how they're going to get off themselves.
Bonus points if they then get a phone out to try and send a message / look something up.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
Such as if their ticket's on it...
londonmidland
Established Member
Not sure what's been happening recently but some of the Sheffield and Nottingham services are advertised really late. Today, the 14:32 to Sheffield was announced at 14:30 and the 14:35 was announced at 14:32. What makes it worse is that the Sheffield train was the front train, which means it is all the way down the other end of the platform.
Lots of passengers, unsurprisingly, rushing to get on the train, with a few missing it amongst the confusion. Both Sheffield and Nottingham trains shared the same platform.
The EMR platforms at St. Pancras now have automated announcements announcing services, as per the rest of their stations, so no manual announcements were made (not that they were frequently made in the past, mind you). Platform alteration announcements for arrival services are also made, which seems a bit odd?
Lots of passengers, unsurprisingly, rushing to get on the train, with a few missing it amongst the confusion. Both Sheffield and Nottingham trains shared the same platform.
The EMR platforms at St. Pancras now have automated announcements announcing services, as per the rest of their stations, so no manual announcements were made (not that they were frequently made in the past, mind you). Platform alteration announcements for arrival services are also made, which seems a bit odd?
I can’t say I’ve ever noticed the top of the escalators becoming dangerously busy, even when the queuing system is in place. On the other hand, the platforms could easily become so if a free for all were to be allowed, and it could easily reach the point where trains couldn’t be dispatched, which would result in a total logjam, and the very real risk of people on delayed inbound services egressing in the station throat.
It seems a little odd to suggest that EMR should allow overcrowded platforms, with trains pulling in and out, and all the attendant risk, in order to mitigate crowding around the top of the Network Rail managed escalators.
Yes, it’s bad when that happens, albeit booked for several departures. Aside from that there have been quite a few platforming errors in recent weeks, partly due to West Hampstead box getting up to speed with things.
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The top of the escalators can become very busy, whether dangerously so will be subjective.
Certainly the platforms should not be a "free for all" but I don't see why people for the next departure cannot be allowed on a lot earlier than they currently are to reduce crowding before the barrier - particularly when, as described in post #41, there are two trains on the same platform.
That the company which controls the barriers is different to the one managing the escalators should not matter at all - the objective should be to prevent unnecessary overcrowding anywhere on the station
Agreed, albeit there are (AIUI) objective elements to risk assessments, and I don’t believe it’s ever been flagged as dangerous. I can’t ever remember the station being closed due to overcrowding, for example.
I think part of the issue is that, post Covid, we’re all still getting used to seeing properly busy platforms and trains again.
Around five minutes before departure is adequate to advertise and board a five car train on the stops, and get it away on time. Ideally longer, especially for a ten car, or a five at the north end, but this is subject to the inbound service arriving and tipping out, knowing that West Hampstead box hasn’t dropped the ball again (eg putting an inbound unit into a platform on top of a shunt, which was booked to depart first, as they did today), and that it’s coming into the correct platform.
The EMR staff have to radio the NR control room to advertise the platform, so there’s potential for Chinese whispers/mistakes there. It’s not unknown for them to put the wrong platform onto the boards, which is a bit of a face palm moment.
An issue that increasingly rears its head, as passenger numbers rise, is where a 360 tips out on p1, and the ex Nottingham 222 that has been up its chuff since Luton quietly glides along P2 with people walking dangerous close to the platform edge with their backs to it. Increasingly horns are having to be blown, which isn’t ideal inside the station, albeit somewhat amusing to do
.Reasonable endeavours are already undertaken to minimise crowding, to the extent possible, via the queuing system. The station layout isn’t ideal (far too much is given over to Eurostar, as previously noted) but has to be worked around, as best as it can be.
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Make that three minutes to get through the barriers, because they close them ridiculously early. Which means people have to turn up that little bit earlier for their train, adding to the crowd waiting to get through the barriers.
Loads of space up the other end - when things are going wrong couldn't they set up a temporary waiting area there for the trains not departing for another X minutes, check/count out train loads of passengers, then send them down to the gate in turn? Give them coloured elastic bands like the local swimming pool did and only let those with the right bands through the gate. 
STINT47
Member
With the ECML closed for the next four days things could get interesting at St Pancras. EMR cannot cope as it is so I'm grateful I don't need to visit London in the next few days.
duffield
Established Member
Yes, I was planning a trip involving the MML but I'll defer it from Monday to Thursday.
The escalator in question is out of use this evening. The queue stretches all the way back around the rear of the station, to Carluccios and the side entrance towards KGX.
That's no exaggeration.
They have 5 cars on Sheffield and Nottingham services so anyone heading towards the North is best off going via Bedford/Peterborough on the Corby services which are 8 car and has tiny queues by comparison.
That's no exaggeration.
They have 5 cars on Sheffield and Nottingham services so anyone heading towards the North is best off going via Bedford/Peterborough on the Corby services which are 8 car and has tiny queues by comparison.
londonmidland
Established Member
Reports of queues backing up all the way around the back of the Eurostar platforms for EMR services this afternoon.
For Sheffield/Nottingham services, yes.
Corby queue was absolutely tiny in comparison.
Unfortunately, LNER are refusing to allow people, who are further delayed by the chaos, to use the Corby services to connect with connecting buses into Peterborough, because they don't have LNER tickets! I'm currently arguing with them on Twitter, but I've accepted my fate of going via Sheffield now. LNER are even stating that Condition 28.2 does not apply unless ticket acceptance has been agreed.
This madness is not helping; some people are going to miss last trains as a result. I am lucky in that I can get later trains (albeit not sticking to the TOC restrictions, but if an XC Guard wants to argue with me, I'll get a solicitor involved if need be, as I am not in the mood for any more nonsense)
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While five minutes might be sufficient to advertise and board one five car train, problems arise when you have multiple five car trains (Sheffield departing at XX:02 and Nottingham departing at XX:05). Combine these with the Corby services, and the fear that the ticket barriers will be locked out at 2 minutes prior to departure, and there's the potential for an almighty crush at the ticket barriers, especially when the first off-peak train of the evening is due to depart.
I've observed (on my weekly trips to London) that both the Nottingham and Sheffield platforms are routinely suppressed until the later of 10 minutes prior to boarding (to allow for "cleaning" of the trains, apparently), or the latter of the two services arriving. On more than one occasion, I've observed a Nottingham-bound train sat in the platform with the platform announcement suppressed and the ticket barriers turned off while we wait for a delayed inbound Sheffield train to arrive. A more sensible solution would seem to be to allow boarding of the first train to arrive as soon as its finished disgorging its passengers, in order to get rid of half of the queue that's building up behind the ticket barriers.
wellhouse
Member
On Saturday 17th February, we arrived about 1355 for the 1402 to Sheffield, to find a crowd in front of the barriers, which had already been closed as the train was rammed. We were far from the only passengers with reservations who were unable to board. To save time, the barriers were opened for both arriving and departing passengers to speed things up.
No problem with Advance Ticket acceptance or finding unreserved seats on the 1432.
There really isn’t - it’s often no busier than a many other London terminal gate lines can become, let alone the tube. On the days where it is busy there is a queuing system in place.
The idea that a busy gate line is somehow incredibly dangerous is an obsession of a few on here, but when was the last time someone was actually injured in a gateline crush?
It isn’t more sensible because, as explained upthread, you then end up with a much busier platform with trains arriving, tipping out, and then needing to be dispatched. It’s better to have the queue on the safe side of the barriers.
There isn’t generally an issue getting through the ticket barriers and boarding trains (other than for those who turn up at the last minute and chance their arm).
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Chaos on Saturday evening. The Sheffield queue ran the entire length of the upstairs of St Pancras.
Also the 7.45pm Corby train dissappeared from the information screens about 30 minutes before it's scheduled departure time, leading some to think it was cancelled.
I checked real time trains and it was on it's way into St Pancras, but was never announced and never reappeared on the screens. When it arrived i decided to walk through the open barrier, all had a red cross on them to not uses them but they were open in order to get passengers off trains quickly.
So, i walked through and hardly anybody followed. Must've been a couple of hundred people waiting before the barriers as our mostly empty 8 car 360 pulled out......
Also the 7.45pm Corby train dissappeared from the information screens about 30 minutes before it's scheduled departure time, leading some to think it was cancelled.
I checked real time trains and it was on it's way into St Pancras, but was never announced and never reappeared on the screens. When it arrived i decided to walk through the open barrier, all had a red cross on them to not uses them but they were open in order to get passengers off trains quickly.
So, i walked through and hardly anybody followed. Must've been a couple of hundred people waiting before the barriers as our mostly empty 8 car 360 pulled out......
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YorksLad12
Established Member
It's not much better at Sheffield (apart from the escalator part). People are insisting on travelling StP-Sheffield-Leeds. I gave up trying to board the 1721 (5 car set) this evening because it was full of people would generally be on an LNER service (count the suitcases). It arrived 2 minutes down, left 7 down. Same on the way in; couldn't board the 2-car 0838 Northern semi-fast, had to wait for the 9-car 0911 XC... which only had four of us in the rear carriage. Sheeple.
I get that people want to travel (even with suitcases so large you could stuff a body in them), but a coach connection from Peterborough to London rather than Bedford might have persuaded more people to travel that way, easing congestion at StP and elsewhere. And I could get to work and home on time
I get that people want to travel (even with suitcases so large you could stuff a body in them), but a coach connection from Peterborough to London rather than Bedford might have persuaded more people to travel that way, easing congestion at StP and elsewhere. And I could get to work and home on time
But most folk don't dig into it to that level whilst booking, they self serve on the apps.It's not much better at Sheffield (apart from the escalator part). People are insisting on travelling StP-Sheffield-Leeds. I gave up trying to board the 1721 (5 car set) this evening because it was full of people would generally be on an LNER service (count the suitcases). It arrived 2 minutes down, left 7 down. Same on the way in; couldn't board the 2-car 0838 Northern semi-fast, had to wait for the 9-car 0911 XC... which only had four of us in the rear carriage. Sheeple.
I get that people want to travel (even with suitcases so large you could stuff a body in them), but a coach connection from Peterborough to London rather than Bedford might have persuaded more people to travel that way, easing congestion at StP and elsewhere. And I could get to work and home on time
They might go as far as thinking "oh, it's got more changes/takes longer, there must be engineering work" but for the most part people will just click the appropriate price in the most suitable time for their journey, without thinking "the MML operator always turns into a circus" or "it'll only be a bit longer on the bus, I'll do that" - especially given the preference in general for *any* train over a bus.
As long as you have multi route any permitted tickets, without resorting to dirty tricks like additional dated routing restrictions it is really hard to prevent this.
You can tell it is entirely naive just listening to the conversations going on on board the trains and around the stations - they just don't understand why they don't seem to be expected, when the reality is that they are, but nothing can be done to divert them to the buses.
Once the inbound train is in the platform, the passengers should be allowed to approach the train and where the reservations are "on", there is no reason not to allow boarding.
Are LNER actually offering a reasonable level of advances? If not, of course people will be drawn for EMR due to the journey times, prices and lack of RRBs. If this was being coordinated properly, there would be plenty of cheap advances for the RRBs to keep people away from EMR which clearly can't cope with its own traffic, let alone refugees from LNER or Avanti.
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