St Pancras to Rotterdam by Eurostar and Immigration checks on Return

[kevin_roche]

Hi,

Earlier this year I checked on prices for a trip to Rotterdam on Eurostar in July. I made this trip before Brexit and it worked well for me as my final destination is Den Haag. When I looked there were no trains shown to Rotterdam and on these forums were lots of discussions about the need to go through UK immigration in Amsterdam so I assumed I was going to have to go to and return from Amsterdam. When I tried to book yesterday I see the direct train to and from Rotterdam had been reinstated. Can I go through immigration in Rotterdam now or will I have to go to Amsterdam for that?

 

[Teebs]

I'm making a trip to Rotterdam on the Eurostar this weekend. The Eurostar guide is pretty clear that you can do passport control at Rotterdam. If you can't then I'm going to have big problems on Monday!

 

[AdamWW]

Hi,

Earlier this year I checked on prices for a trip to Rotterdam on Eurostar in July. I made this trip before Brexit and it worked well for me as my final destination is Den Haag. When I looked there were no trains shown to Rotterdam and on these forums were lots of discussions about the need to go through UK immigration in Amsterdam so I assumed I was going to have to go to and return from Amsterdam. When I tried to book yesterday I see the direct train to and from Rotterdam had been reinstated. Can I go through immigration in Rotterdam now or will I have to go to Amsterdam for that?

Unless something has changed in the last few months,you can board in Rotterdam or Amsterdam. Both are equipped for security and passport control.

When I travelled from Amsterdam last year passengers joined the train in Rotterdam.

 

[rvdborgt]

You can arrive with Eurostar in Rotterdam and you can leave from there. If you don't find any Eurostar to Rotterdam on a particular date, then there may be engineering works.

 

[zwk500]

Have just checked and definitely stopping at Rotterdam. AIUI the lounge at Rotterdam is tiny so there aren't many seats available from there, but there are still tickets available on the website for tomorrow.

 

[AdamWW]

Have just checked and definitely stopping at Rotterdam. AIUI the lounge at Rotterdam is tiny so there aren't many seats available from there, but there are still tickets available on the website for tomorrow.

Actually I think it's currently the Amsterdam lounge that has limited capacity and therefore limits the numbers of tickets that can be sold (but there are plans to move it to somewhere with more space).

 

[kevin_roche]

Thank you, everyone. I'll book some tickets to Rotterdam in that case and take the local train to Den Haag.

I'm planning a visit to the Escher Museum and the Panorama as well as the beach at Scheveningen.

 

[zwk500]

Actually I think it's currently the Amsterdam lounge that has limited capacity and therefore limits the numbers of tickets that can be sold (but there are plans to move it to somewhere with more space).

It's both. However Amsterdam is the one everybody talks about because it's the dominant market. IIRC the plan is for Amsterdam Eurostar services to move to Amsterdam-Zuid when that's finished but the project is overrunning slightly.

 

[AdamWW]

It's both. However Amsterdam is the one everybody talks about because it's the dominant market. IIRC the plan is for Amsterdam Eurostar services to move to Amsterdam-Zuid when that's finished but the project is overrunning slightly.

The last I heard, there were plans to move the lounge in Amsterdam Centraal before (or instead of?) the move to give more space.

Given that they are filling the (Dutch half of the) trains, there must be enough capacity in the two lounges combined. If it's true that they have to limit sales from Amsterdam because of limited lounge capacity, I don't see how that can also be the case at Rotterdam unless the balance of demand shifts between services.

And is Amsterdam the dominant market? The Rotterdam stop serves a highly populated area and I think with a lot of business travel.

 

[bspahh]

Last year I got the Eurostar from Rotterdam, and passport checks were done at Brussels by getting everyone off the train. I think this was because of staff shortages.

 

[zwk500]

The last I heard, there were plans to move the lounge in Amsterdam Centraal before (or instead of?) the move to give more space.

Yes, the Amsterdam-Zuid project is running late, but the Centraal rebuild needs to start so the E* lounge is moving within Centraal first before Zuid becomes available.

Given that they are filling the (Dutch half of the) trains, there must be enough capacity in the two lounges combined. If it's true that they have to limit sales from Amsterdam because of limited lounge capacity, I don't see how that can also be the case at Rotterdam unless the balance of demand shifts between services.

My understanding is that they are holding an awful lot of tickets back for boarding at Brussels because of the capacity problems at both.

And is Amsterdam the dominant market? The Rotterdam stop serves a highly populated area and I think with a lot of business travel.

I don't have any hard numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if Amsterdam tourism outstripped business travel to The Hague and Rotterdam, even with the Schiphol connections available at Rotterdam.

 

[AdamWW]

My understanding is that they are holding an awful lot of tickets back for boarding at Brussels because of the capacity problems at both.

They seem to fill the half of the train which is available for boarding in the Netherlands.

Maybe if it lounge capacity was better they would have changed the arrangements in Amsterdam and Rotterdam so that the full length of the platforms could be secured and therefore the whole train used.

I don't have any hard numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if Amsterdam tourism outstripped business travel to The Hague and Rotterdam, even with the Schiphol connections available at Rotterdam.

I expect on the whole tourists would rather use Centraal then Zuid.

 

[Trainbike46]

Yes, the Amsterdam-Zuid project is running late, but the Centraal rebuild needs to start so the E* lounge is moving within Centraal first before Zuid becomes available.

My understanding is that they are holding an awful lot of tickets back for boarding at Brussels because of the capacity problems at both.

I don't have any hard numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if Amsterdam tourism outstripped business travel to The Hague and Rotterdam, even with the Schiphol connections available at Rotterdam.

My understanding is that they are selling way fewer seats from Amsterdam or Rotterdam than they want to

According to these article in the Dutch press:
There is 275 or 300 spaces per train from Amsterdam currently (will increase to 600 maximum with the new terminal in Centraal)
there are "slightly more than" 180 spaces per train from Rotterdam (there are no plans to change this)

sources:

De Eurostar vertrekt naar Londen met ruim 600 lege stoelen, elke rit

De Eurostar zou voor zakenreizigers en toeristen hét alternatief moeten zijn voor vliegen naar Londen. Maar de directe treinen vertrekken elke dag vanuit Amsterdam met acht van de zestien coupés onbezet. Ook de komende jaren blijft het aanmodderen. Een reportage.

fd.nl

Gebrek aan ruimte Eurostar-terminals zorgt voor “gelimiteerd aantal passagiers”

Dagelijks rijdt de Eurostar-trein vier keer vanuit Amsterdam naar Londen. Volgens de vervoerder is de verbinding “erg populair onder reizigers gebleken.” Eurostar ziet echter wel een capaciteitsprobleem op de Nederlandse stations. Op Amsterdam Centraal is bijvoorbeeld maar ruimte voor 275...

www.ovpro.nl

 

[zwk500]

They seem to fill the half of the train which is available for boarding in the Netherlands.

Yes, considering how large the Randstadt-UK market potentially is I am not surprised that they don't have a problem selling the tickets that are available.

Maybe if it lounge capacity was better they would have changed the arrangements in Amsterdam and Rotterdam so that the full length of the platforms could be secured and therefore the whole train used.

Maybe, but that may then impact on the station operations because you then need more people to do the security sweeps and potentially more entrances to secure, etc.

I expect on the whole tourists would rather use Centraal then Zuid.

I'm sure they would, but that's the balance to be struck - will tourists prefer more trains and more seats but a metro hop into town? After all, plenty fly to Schiphol now.

 

[Trainbike46]

They seem to fill the half of the train which is available for boarding in the Netherlands.

Maybe if it lounge capacity was better they would have changed the arrangements in Amsterdam and Rotterdam so that the full length of the platforms could be secured and therefore the whole train used.

Presumably they will start using the whole platform when the new terminal in Centraal opens, and there are more seats available from Amsterdam

 

[AdamWW]

Maybe, but that may then impact on the station operations because you then need more people to do the security sweeps and potentially more entrances to secure, etc.

Indeed. But if they aren't willing or able to do that, then lounge capacity isn't the bottleneck because they are already filling the half trains.

After all, plenty fly to Schiphol now.

They do - and once you start to erode the city centre-city centre nature of a train, air becomes more attractive.

I realise that for some people Zuid will actually be more convenient. But probably not most tourists.

I'm sure this isn't being done on a whim. And St Pancras isn't exactly centrally located.

But it does seem a shame not to be able to arrive in the heart of the city any more.

 

[zwk500]

Indeed. But if they aren't willing or able to do that, then lounge capacity isn't the bottleneck because they are already filling the half trains.

It might be that both are bottlenecks?

They do - and once you start to erode the city centre-city centre nature of a train, air becomes more attractive.

True, but Amsterdam metro isn't exactly bad and most peple will have a hotel on the edge of the city centre anyway.

I'm sure this isn't being done on a whim. And St Pancras isn't exactly centrally located.
But it does seem a shame not to be able to arrive in the heart of the city any more.

It does, although Paris-Nord, Brussels-Midi/Zuid and St Pancras are all a reasonable walk from their respective city centres as well (about 20 minutes each, I'd guess).

 

[Trainbike46]

Indeed. But if they aren't willing or able to do that, then lounge capacity isn't the bottleneck because they are already filling the half trains.



They do - and once you start to erode the city centre-city centre nature of a train, air becomes more attractive.

I realise that for some people Zuid will actually be more convenient. But probably not most tourists.

I'm sure this isn't being done on a whim. And St Pancras isn't exactly centrally located.

But it does seem a shame not to be able to arrive in the heart of the city any more.

the changes of services around Amsterdam appears to be entirely centered around running more trains with minimal extra infrastructure.
What is actually happening I'm not sure off, but there was a lot of backlash from places that got told they'd lose their direct Intercity connections to Centraal.
Moving all international services to Zuid is part of this plan. Personally, I'm not at all convinced this is a good idea

 

[island]

Have just checked and definitely stopping at Rotterdam. AIUI the lounge at Rotterdam is tiny so there aren't many seats available from there, but there are still tickets available on the website for tomorrow.

Indeed. The lounge space is rather small. They could put people onto the platform to wait, though the boundary between coaches 8 and 9 (and therefore people who are cleared to enter the UK and people who are not) is just a retractable screen held in place by a couple of hired security, so I wager the Home Office won't have it.

 

[zwk500]

Indeed. The lounge space is rather small. They could put people onto the platform to wait, though the boundary between coaches 8 and 9 (and therefore people who are cleared to enter the UK and people who are not) is just a retractable screen held in place by a couple of hired security, so I wager the Home Office won't have it.

My understanding is that there's international standards for what is and isn't acceptable, and the Home Office doesn't get to override them however much it might wish. I may well be wrong on that.

 

[AdamWW]

Indeed. The lounge space is rather small. They could put people onto the platform to wait, though the boundary between coaches 8 and 9 (and therefore people who are cleared to enter the UK and people who are not)

And also who have been security screened.

My understanding is that there's international standards for what is and isn't acceptable, and the Home Office doesn't get to override them however much it might wish. I may well be wrong on that.

The UK might not be able to dictate how the security is handled, but presumably they could choose to end direct travel to the UK if they were unhappy with the arrangements.

If they stopped providing staff for UK incoming passport control the trains wouldn't run. Well, not with passengers travelling from the Netherlands any further than Lille, anyway.

 

[zwk500]

The UK might not be able to dictate how the security is handled, but presumably they could choose to end direct travel to the UK if they were unhappy with the arrangements.

If they stopped providing staff for UK incoming passport control the trains wouldn't run. Well, not with passengers travelling from the Netherlands any further than Lille, anyway.

They could but they'd be unlikely to withdraw the staff unilaterally, especially as there is a treaty governing juxtaposed arrangements.

 

[DanielB]

Maybe, but that may then impact on the station operations because you then need more people to do the security sweeps and potentially more entrances to secure, etc.

Since it's no longer possible to travel between Amsterdam and Brussels on Eurostar, the entire platforms in Rotterdam and Amsterdam have security. Which saves time as they no longer need to security sweep half the train in Brussels.
The last time I saw an Eurostar depart in Rotterdam the fence halfway the platform was no longer used as it's no longer required to separate passengers who went through customs from intra-Schengen passengers.

the changes of services around Amsterdam appears to be entirely centered around running more trains with minimal extra infrastructure.
What is actually happening I'm not sure off, but there was a lot of backlash from places that got told they'd lose their direct Intercity connections to Centraal.
Moving all international services to Zuid is part of this plan. Personally, I'm not at all convinced this is a good idea

Actually, there are multiple projects ongoing simultaniously. At Amsterdam Centraal it's the DSSA project, which is a similar project like in Utrecht several years ago. This involves unentangling the tracks removing conflicts between corridors. Can't find the maps of the future layout anymore for some reason, but this would result in different platforms being required for the Eurostar.

The impact on domestic services to Amsterdam Centraal has to do most with the SAAL project, which will increase capacity between Schiphol, Almere and Lelystad. That would impact services from Amersfoort Centraal to Amsterdam Centraal (which partly are also international services), which would go to Amsterdam South instead, as that approach requires less infrastructure in Weesp.

 

[AdamWW]

Since it's no longer possible to travel between Amsterdam and Brussels on Eurostar, the entire platforms in Rotterdam and Amsterdam have security. Which saves time as they no longer need to security sweep half the train in Brussels.

When I caught the Eurostar at Amsterdam last Autumn, they had already stopped allowing travel between Amsterdam and Brussels but they were still using the half platforms.

I almost certain that we didn't stop at Brussels long enough to check the the other half. I assume they just kept the external doors locked until Brussels.

Interesting though if they are using the full platforms now.

 

[Bemined]

Actually, there are multiple projects ongoing simultaniously. At Amsterdam Centraal it's the DSSA project, which is a similar project like in Utrecht several years ago. This involves unentangling the tracks removing conflicts between corridors. Can't find the maps of the future layout anymore for some reason, but this would result in different platforms being required for the Eurostar.

Project is called PHSA. Basic idea is that the middle tracks without platforms are removed to widen the platforms, as well as to extend most platforms to about 650 metres (divided into two blocks, one 270 metres and one 340 metres with a short overlap in the middle). Some tracks have the 340 metre block on the east side, others on the west, depending on the intended usage of each track. The plan is to eventually eliminate platform 15 where the Eurostar departs, but that won't happen until the extension of Amsterdam Zuid is complete, so after the initial reconstruction platform 15 will stay for the Eurostar.

However, during the reconstruction platform 15 will be unavailable for about 9 months as the bridge needs to be replaced. Also the current terminal cannot stay in it's current position, hence why a new temporary terminal will be made until the one at Amsterdam Zuid is finally ready (which can easily take more than 10 years still).

 

[rvdborgt]

Actually, there are multiple projects ongoing simultaniously. At Amsterdam Centraal it's the DSSA project, which is a similar project like in Utrecht several years ago. This involves unentangling the tracks removing conflicts between corridors. Can't find the maps of the future layout anymore for some reason, but this would result in different platforms being required for the Eurostar.

The impact on domestic services to Amsterdam Centraal has to do most with the SAAL project, which will increase capacity between Schiphol, Almere and Lelystad. That would impact services from Amersfoort Centraal to Amsterdam Centraal (which partly are also international services), which would go to Amsterdam South instead, as that approach requires less infrastructure in Weesp.

The reason given for moving international services to Zuid and not leaving them at Centraal was purely financial: more money would be needed to keep an extra platform at Centraal to be able to handle international trains there. No impact analysis has been done for international passengers, or at last none that ProRail or the government want to share, although they keep claiming every once in a while that it would be better for passengers. But when you then ask for figures, they're silent.

 

[Bemined]

It's not just about an extra platform, the problem is also that platform 15 is in the 'wrong' corridor. Eurostar departing from platform here has a negative impact on capacity towards Zaandam, a completely different layout would be needed for Eurostar trains to fit in the future timetable.

 

[island]

My understanding is that there's international standards for what is and isn't acceptable, and the Home Office doesn't get to override them however much it might wish. I may well be wrong on that.

I’m not familiar with any international standards for immigration preclearance for trains. It’s not especially common, though I understand it also exists in Vancouver and on trains between Singapore and Malaysia. And anyway…

The UK might not be able to dictate how the security is handled, but presumably they could choose to end direct travel to the UK if they were unhappy with the arrangements.

 

[dastocks]

Indeed. But if they aren't willing or able to do that, then lounge capacity isn't the bottleneck because they are already filling the half trains.

They do - and once you start to erode the city centre-city centre nature of a train, air becomes more attractive.

I realise that for some people Zuid will actually be more convenient. But probably not most tourists.

I'm sure this isn't being done on a whim. And St Pancras isn't exactly centrally located.

But it does seem a shame not to be able to arrive in the heart of the city any more.

- As a business traveler to/from the Netherlands for over 2 years I have to say that Zuid with decent security and lounge facilities would make me a lot more likely to use Eurostar than the current arrangements at Centraal which are completely inadequate.
- I actually used Eurostar for the first time on my last business trip home because my flight was cancelled due to the drones at Gatwick in December 2018, and doing the security clearance at Brussels was still better than queuing up outside the hut at Centraal.
- Business travelers (like me) who need to get to somewhere other than Centraal would probably find better connections at Zuid, especially for destinations that aren't served by IC trains at Rotterdam.
- It's probably the business market, paying full price for their travel, that are the key to making service viable financially.

 

[AdamWW]

- As a business traveler to/from the Netherlands for over 2 years I have to say that Zuid with decent security and lounge facilities would make me a lot more likely to use Eurostar than the current arrangements at Centraal which are completely inadequate.
- I actually used Eurostar for the first time on my last business trip home because my flight was cancelled due to the drones at Gatwick in December 2018, and doing the security clearance at Brussels was still better than queuing up outside the hut at Centraal.
- Business travelers (like me) who need to get to somewhere other than Centraal would probably find better connections at Zuid, especially for destinations that aren't served by IC trains at Rotterdam.
- It's probably the business market, paying full price for their travel, that are the key to making service viable financially.

That's a fair point. Even if there are more tourists than business passengers, the proportion of revenue will be different.

But it sounds as if there are plans anyway to enlarge the security area at Centraal.

(I was quite happy to queue outside the building in Centraal because I could watch the trains going past - and it was a nice day).