St Peter Square Metrolink stop set to closed for 14 months from Summer 2015.

[familyguy99]

Off TFGM website.

Changes on the way in St Peter’s Square

Transport leaders in Greater Manchester have been consulted on the next major phase of Metrolink’s transformational Second City Crossing programme.

Work to deliver the new tram line through Manchester city centre, which will increase capacity and resilience in the system, will require changes to Metrolink services through St Peter’s Square starting next summer.

This major construction scheme will transform the area’s stop by relocating the existing stop to allow for greater public space in the main area of the square.

This will require two new island platforms to be created and two sets of existing track to be replaced with four sets of new track through the new stop.

Improvements will also be made to public and pedestrian areas to complement Manchester City Council’s flagship redevelopment of the square.

From next summer, the stop will close for around 14 months.

In a similar operation to the current Victoria stop closure, single line running will be introduced for 10 months to allow vital engineering works to be carried out as quickly as possible – while minimising disruption for passengers by maintaining a service through the city.

There will be two eight-week periods, either side of the single line running, where all tram services through St Peter’s Square will be temporarily suspended.

Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) has briefed members of the TfGM Committee and Greater Manchester Combined Authority (GMCA) around a year ahead of any changes coming into effect.

Councillor Andrew Fender, Chair of the TfGM Committee said: “This is a massive project that requires significant changes and will, unavoidably, come with a level of disruption.

“Given the location and the work involved there is no easy way of delivering this scheme. Both the scale and complexities involved – set against the importance of maintaining services through the city – mean this is the best possible option.

“The alternatives would have required a much longer complete closure to passenger services, and the plan enables passengers to keep moving around the city for as long as possible to employment, shopping and events.

“Having the summertime closures – when the holiday period is in full swing and services are quieter – either side of the single line running means we can instead get everything done as quickly as possible whilst maintaining a service through the city.

“The reward is the completion of the Second City Crossing: greater capacity through the city centre which, in turn, gives us a much more flexible and dynamic network that will allow us to run additional and more frequent services to meet ever-growing demand.

“For example, the completion of 2CC will enable us to extend operation of the recently announced airport service into the city centre.”

The redevelopment of the Deansgate-Castlefield stop will be complete before the changes at St Peter’s Square come into effect and will provide a turning point for trams south of the city centre, during the closure and the single line working.

The new line, due 2017, will begin in Lower Mosley Street and run through St Peter’s Square, turn down Princess Street and head along Cross Street and Corporation Street before re-joining the existing Metrolink line at the expanded Metrolink Victoria stop.

In addition to the transformation of the Deansgate-Castlefield, St Peter’s Square and Manchester Victoria stops, a new stop also will be built in Exchange Square.

http://www.tfgm.com/Corporate/media_centre/Pages/News.aspx?articleId=484

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is quite a distance from Deansgate-Castlefield to the two Metrolink stops in the city centre. I know quite a number of people use the St Peter's Square stop as a way of accessing numerous locations, such as Manchester Town Hall and the Manchester Art Gallery.

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks for link.

Eight weeks seems hugely excessive for setting up single line working and for restoring full operation. How long did it take them to put that temporary crossover in at Balloon Street? As Paul says this closure will be very inconvenient, much more so than Victoria, and neither Deansgate-Castlefield nor Cornbrook is an easy transfer to/from any replacement buses.

Why can't they quickly set up single line running on the existing track nearest the Library (there's already a trailing crossover on the ramp next to Central) while they build the new track furthest from the Library, then switch over to using that one while they build the rest?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why can't they quickly set up single line running on the existing track nearest the Library (there's already a trailing crossover on the ramp next to Central) while they build the new track furthest from the Library, then switch over to using that one while they build the rest?

That thought had already occurred to me. Would there be any H & S problems ?

 

[507 001]

I believe that it has been done before, however the rule book states that wrong directional moves are not permitted in street running areas unless supervised by GMP.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe that it has been done before, however the rule book states that wrong directional moves are not permitted in street running areas unless supervised by GMP.

The guidance from HMRI (as was) stated that this only applies in a lane shared with other traffic. Bi-directional running in street areas happens at Droylsden turnback, Rochdale terminus, Ashton terminus, Media City and at Balloon Street as part of the Victoria single line. So I don't see any reason why this shouldn't be permitted at St Peters Square too, considering that other traffic would almost certainly be banned because of the construction work.

 

[daikilo]

Thanks for link.

Eight weeks seems hugely excessive for setting up single line working and for restoring full operation. How long did it take them to put that temporary crossover in at Balloon Street? As Paul says this closure will be very inconvenient, much more so than Victoria, and neither Deansgate-Castlefield nor Cornbrook is an easy transfer to/from any replacement buses.

Why can't they quickly set up single line running on the existing track nearest the Library (there's already a trailing crossover on the ramp next to Central) while they build the new track furthest from the Library, then switch over to using that one while they build the rest?

Where I work, a temporary single line working around a new junction was put in place over a weekend and removed over another. I have never seen anything more Heath-Robinson on a modern tramway as the crossover was placed on top of the existing track and the catenary was a solid bar between support posts. But it worked, albeit with significant delays due to stopping and slow speed over the area.

 

[507 001]

I believe that it has been done before, however the rule book states that wrong directional moves are not permitted in street running areas unless supervised by GMP.

The guidance from HMRI (as was) stated that this only applies in a lane shared with other traffic. Bi-directional running in street areas happens at Droylsden turnback, Rochdale terminus, Ashton terminus, Media City and at Balloon Street as part of the Victoria single line. So I don't see any reason why this shouldn't be permitted at St Peters Square too, considering that other traffic would almost certainly be banned because of the construction work.

It's all speculation at the moment but it's the closest we drivers can get to a logical explanation.

In this case it doesn't matter what HMRI guidance states, the MRDL rule book goes further and states that wrong line running is forbidden under normal circumstances (balloon street is technically segregated at the moment and the other locations mentioned are bidirectional and are signalled accordingly. They are not wrong line moves as such.)

 

[edwin_m]

It's all speculation at the moment but it's the closest we drivers can get to a logical explanation.

In this case it doesn't matter what HMRI guidance states, the MRDL rule book goes further and states that wrong line running is forbidden under normal circumstances (balloon street is technically segregated at the moment and the other locations mentioned are bidirectional and are signalled accordingly. They are not wrong line moves as such.)

Everyone concerned must have agreed that single line working is possible on this section because the OP's quote says it will be in place for 10 months. I can't see that there is any greater risk here than at Balloon Street and if necessary the rule book can be changed subject to risk assessment and approval.

My concern is why it should take two months of total closure to get single line working in place and a similar period to restore normal operation. Even if temporary signaling is required this could mostly be installed beforehand and commissioned in a couple of days shutdown, along with temporary pointwork.

 

[bradders1983]

Not in Manchester, but "wrong line running" happens 4 times an hour during the day at the Cathedral stop in Sheffield, and that is allowed without any police supervision.

 

[rebmcr]

My concern is why it should take two months of total closure to get single line working in place and a similar period to restore normal operation.

Surely you've noticed by now, TfGM's pet strategy of vastly over-estimating timescales, in order to generate positive headlines when the work completes 'early'?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Surely you've noticed by now, TfGM's pet strategy of vastly over-estimating timescales, in order to generate positive headlines when the work completes 'early'?

Hey, I thought that I was the cynic-in-chief on the Manchester Metrolink threads...

 

[alex17595]

Thanks for link.

Eight weeks seems hugely excessive for setting up single line working and for restoring full operation. How long did it take them to put that temporary crossover in at Balloon Street?

Didn't take very long at all, I did 2x 12hour shifts on it and that vast majority was done. We went from them still ripping up the concrete to bolting the baseplates down.

 

[pemma]

The question is why didn't they future proof when they closed the St Peter's Square to Piccadilly line a couple of years back instead of needing to close the city centre twice? Or, alternatively why not coincide the Metrolink closure to be when Manchester Central Library was closed or was that not possible as one is Manchester City Council and the other is TfGM (which Manchester CC has direct influence over)?

 

[rebmcr]

The question is why didn't they future proof when they closed the St Peter's Square to Piccadilly line a couple of years back instead of needing to close the city centre twice?

The city-centre track renewal was carried out long before 2CC was able to be confirmed. It's not good for maintenance at all to put extra points in when they're not necessary.

Or, alternatively why not coincide the Metrolink closure to be when Manchester Central Library was closed or was that not possible as one is Manchester City Council and the other is TfGM (which Manchester CC has direct influence over)?

A four-year project that started in 2010 and has now completed a year before this one even begins? Delaying that would have been a bad idea, not a good idea.

 

[button_boxer]

Not in Manchester, but "wrong line running" happens 4 times an hour during the day at the Cathedral stop in Sheffield, and that is allowed without any police supervision.

I wouldn't call that wrong line running, it's a crossover into a platform where the tram reverses to go back out the "right" way, and it's on a fully segregated section not shared with any other traffic. Wrong line running would be the sort of thing they did at points last summer with trams from Hillsborough terminating at University and then running wrong line down Netherthorpe Road to cross back over at Shalesmoor. But again, that's fully segregated, not street running.

 

[Greybeard33]

It is quite a distance from Deansgate-Castlefield to the two Metrolink stops in the city centre. I know quite a number of people use the St Peter's Square stop as a way of accessing numerous locations, such as Manchester Town Hall and the Manchester Art Gallery.

When Metrolink conversion of the Altrincham line was originally proposed, one of the arguments advanced was improved penetration of the city centre. The Deansgate-Castlefield stop is on the site of the old Manchester Central station and is scarcely any closer to the main employment and shopping areas than Deansgate and Oxford Road stations. It has the same drawback of an elevated location that impedes pedestrian access.

If this "improvement" project requires passengers to use Deansgate-Castlefield instead of St Peter's Square, for more than a year, it does beg the question "is the game is worth the candle?".

 

[edwin_m]

If this "improvement" project requires passengers to use Deansgate-Castlefield instead of St Peter's Square, for more than a year, it does beg the question "is the game is worth the candle?".

Passengers only have to use D-C during the two two-month periods when there is no service beyond, which is one reason I'm concerned those periods are so long. During the main shutdown some trams will be running through on the single line so there will still be service to Piccadilly Gardens or Market Street and beyond, but presumably not stopping at St Peters Square.

 

[Greybeard33]

Passengers only have to use D-C during the two two-month periods when there is no service beyond, which is one reason I'm concerned those periods are so long. During the main shutdown some trams will be running through on the single line so there will still be service to Piccadilly Gardens or Market Street and beyond, but presumably not stopping at St Peters Square.

During the 10 month period of single line operation many of the passengers who currently use St Peter's Square will have to use Deansgate-Castlefield instead, because Market Street or Piccadilly Gardens will be an even longer walk from their destinations. Also the limited capacity of the single line will no doubt dictate a restricted service through St Peter's Square (as through Victoria at the moment), with some services from the south and west terminating at D-C or Cornbrook. I fear the limited service, even if all doubles, will be inadequate at peak times, with some passengers unable to change at D-C in the morning or board at Market Street/Piccadilly Gardens in the evening.

It seems likely that the Airport line will have opened before this work starts, so the total passenger flows from Cornbrook into the city centre are likely to be greater than at present.

 

[Moonshot]

I really dont see what the issue is....the tram network is being expanded in Central Manchester, and passengers are getting more than adequate notice of the disruption.

Arrangements currently at Victoria are working fine, this latest news wont be any different.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So long as they use bigger buses or increase the frequency of Metroshuttle 2, I really don't see what the fuss is about. Engineering works are frustrating, sure, but they have to be done.

GMPTE probably do inflate the timescales, but again, what's wrong with this? I'd rather GMPTE said I might be inconvenienced for eight weeks, and it only take six, than them give unrealistic timescales and miss them.

 

[edwin_m]

So long as they use bigger buses or increase the frequency of Metroshuttle 2, I really don't see what the fuss is about. Engineering works are frustrating, sure, but they have to be done.

GMPTE probably do inflate the timescales, but again, what's wrong with this? I'd rather GMPTE said I might be inconvenienced for eight weeks, and it only take six, than them give unrealistic timescales and miss them.

Under-promising is one thing but two months is just totally out of kilter with what has already been done at Victoria and elsewhere, and suggests a complete lack of ambition. Nobody has yet suggested any reason why a two-month closure should be necessary.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

GMPTE probably do inflate the timescales, but again, what's wrong with this? I'd rather GMPTE said I might be inconvenienced for eight weeks, and it only take six, than them give unrealistic timescales and miss them.

TfGM to be precise.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Under-promising is one thing but two months is just totally out of kilter with what has already been done at Victoria and elsewhere, and suggests a complete lack of ambition

Or it suggests that there are engineering complexities at St Peters Square that weren't there on Balloon Street.

TfGM to be precise.

True, though I maintain that's a rubbish name

 

[edwin_m]

Or it suggests that there are engineering complexities at St Peters Square that weren't there on Balloon Street.

It may "suggest" but it doesn't "confirm" or "explain". If it did, it might have a bit more credibility.

 

[Moonshot]

It may "suggest" but it doesn't "confirm" or "explain". If it did, it might have a bit more credibility.

Why dont you contact TFGM and ask for reasons why under the FOI act?

Like I said earlier, I dont see what the issue is....TFGM have told the public exactly what the timescales are so as to make plans accordingly.

 

[po8crg]

During the 10 month period of single line operation many of the passengers who currently use St Peter's Square will have to use Deansgate-Castlefield instead, because Market Street or Piccadilly Gardens will be an even longer walk from their destinations.

Improving the walking route from D-C stop across the roof of Manchester Central into the city centre seems like an important priority.

Right now, you have to walk past all the recycling bins for Manchester Central, then down a path that's completely unsigned until you've practically got to the bridge over to Great Northern. Even then, there aren't useful signs (there's a couple on the wall pointing you back to metrolink and on to Manchester Central, but no indication of what's across the bridge)

Signs directing you onto the bridge for "Deansgate and Spinningfields" and straight on for "Manchester Central and City Centre" would really help, especially as even quite a lot of Mancunians don't know about all those routes. A covered walkway would be even better.

Does anyone know if the First Street steps will have reopened out of D-C station by the time they start closing St. Peter's Square? Again, there's no helpful signage there (First Street, Bridgewater Hall, Oxford Road BR is how I'd sign that).

D-C has five separate exits (across Manchester Central, First Street steps, bridge to Deansgate BR, steps to Deansgate, steps and lift to Castlefield) but if you're stood on the platform, it's far from obvious where they are.

 

[rebmcr]

A covered walkway would be even better.

There used to be a covered route along the northwest side of the Central Station building when it was GMEX — not been there for a long time (i.e. since before MICC was built), has it gone?

 

[po8crg]

There used to be a covered route along the northwest side of the Central Station building when it was GMEX — not been there for a long time (i.e. since before MICC was built), has it gone?

Nothing under cover between the bridge to Great Northern and D-C stop any more.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Nothing under cover between the bridge to Great Northern and D-C stop any more.

I feel that a matter such as the protection against the elements for their passengers in "temporary" disruptions will be far removed from the minds of those charged with the planning of the TfGM Manchester Metrolink empire expansion...