Stabling Sidings at Wimbledon on the Mitcham Line

[wimbledonpete]

Hi

Very specific memory I need help with please! Growing up in Wimbledon in the 60s/70s my dad used to take me to see the trains from the footbridge by Wimbledon C box, then we'd walk round to Dundonald Road, across the level crossing and into town that way. I've always had a memory of seeing trains berthed near Dundonald Road but always thought it was a false one, as I couldn't subsequently see how, and I rarely went that way after the early 70s. But in the latest issue of The Southern Way there's a picture of a steam train that also shows the double track of the Mitcham line with an EPB berthed on a track next to it. Had a look in the Middleton Press album of the line and it does show two sidings leading up to Dundonald Road.

So my question is, does anyone have more details of these sidings, please? Wimbledon had lots of berthing sidings on the east side but I think these particular ones on the west must have disappeared long before the others.

Thanks!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Very specific memory I need help with please! Growing up in Wimbledon in the 60s/70s my dad used to take me to see the trains from the footbridge by Wimbledon C box, then we'd walk round to Dundonald Road, across the level crossing and into town that way. I've always had a memory of seeing trains berthed near Dundonald Road but always thought it was a false one, as I couldn't subsequently see how, and I rarely went that way after the early 70s. But in the latest issue of The Southern Way there's a picture of a steam train that also shows the double track of the Mitcham line with an EPB berthed on a track next to it. Had a look in the Middleton Press album of the line and it does show two sidings leading up to Dundonald Road.

I see in the MP book, Wimbledon-Epsom, the map shows two sidings there as you say. But if both were electrified I can not say, but by 1964 (probably earlier) the Control Diagram shows only one siding remaining, and this was electrified. Known as 'Dundonald Siding', it is shown as being 798 feet long at that date, so long enough to hold a 12 EPB (3 x 4 car).

FURTHER EDIT;

The second siding furthest from the running line, was removed between 1927 and 1930, and the remaining one was taken out on 1st August 1982, the same time as the Merton Park branch junction at Wimbledon station end was modified to be a single lead junction layout. Source: G.Pryer signalling diagram book section S9.

FINAL EDIT:

Reading from G.T.Moody's 'Southern Electric 1909-1979' (Ian Allen) the Wimbledon-West Croydon section was about the last part to be electrified during 1930, so it appears the second siding was never electrified and likely removed during the associated electrification works, with the remaining siding being electrified at the same time.

 

[wimbledonpete]

I see in the MP book, Wimbledon-Epsom, the map shows two sidings there as you say. But if both were electrified I can not say, but by 1964 (probably earlier) the Control Diagram shows only one siding remaining, and this was electrified. Known as 'Dundonald Siding', it is shown as being 798 feet long at that date, so long enough to hold a 12 EPB (3 x 4 car).

FURTHER EDIT;

The second siding furthest from the running line, was removed between 1927 and 1930, and the remaining one was taken out on 1st August 1982, the same time as the Merton Park branch junction at Wimbledon station end was modified to be a single lead junction layout. Source: G.Pryer signalling diagram book section S9.

FINAL EDIT:

Reading from G.T.Moody's 'Southern Electric 1909-1979' (Ian Allen) the Wimbledon-West Croydon section was about the last part to be electrified during 1930, so it appears the second siding was never electrified and likely removed during the associated electrification works, with the remaining siding being electrified at the same time.

Thank you so much for this, it's really interesting information, very grateful to you!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Thank you so much for this, it's really interesting information, very grateful to you!

My pleasure. Sorry I tend to add comments in a bit of a random manner, it's just as I remember things! Strangely had your request been about any purely SWD stabling location in later years I could have answered more accurately straight off, as that was my old patch/job '70's onwards. The walk, done many times, to and from Wimbledon Signalling centre over the footbridge to Wimbledon station, but not via Dundonald Road, was a routine event for me back in the day, although I didn't actually work there, but my job required me to visit same periodically. Seem to remember there was an old LT RM bus parked in the yard there for a time, but can't remember which one it was or who may have owned it?
Strange how odd things come back to mind after all these years!

 

[wimbledonpete]

My pleasure. Sorry I tend to add comments in a bit of a random manner, it's just as I remember things! Strangely had your request been about any purely SWD stabling location in later years I could have answered more accurately straight off, as that was my old patch/job '70's onwards. The walk, done many times, to and from Wimbledon Signalling centre over the footbridge to Wimbledon station, but not via Dundonald Road, was a routine event for me back in the day, although I didn't actually work there, but my job required me to visit same periodically. Seem to remember there was an old LT RM bus parked in the yard there for a time, but can't remember which one it was or who may have owned it?
Strange how odd things come back to mind after all these years!

Fair enough! We moved up the road to Raynes Park in '73 so even though it was a short distance it meant that I never really went back to the Dundonald Road area. I do remember the lines of SUBs and EPBs all stacked up in those two long sidings to the east of the line, north of Wimbledon, going right the way under Gap Road and alongside the flyover. Must have taken work retrieving them all in the peaks! The West Croydon 2 car EPB used to shuffle into the end of one of them to shunt from platform 9 into 10.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I do remember the lines of SUBs and EPBs all stacked up in those two long sidings to the east of the line, north of Wimbledon, going right the way under Gap Road and alongside the flyover.

Known variously as Down Sidings A & B, Down Sidings 1 & 2, or going back to the 70's we used the term 'South Sidings 1 & 2'. No 1 alongside the Down Slow (SW) Line was the longest, and we stabled 4 x 8 SUB (32 cars) in there every night. The siding went on a bit further (without a third rail) and stopped just short of Durnsford Road Bridge at that time. In earlier times it went under said bridge where the very end of the siding formed a shunt neck for a private siding, which (I think?) was part of Wimbledon Borough Council's depot.

The above mentioned SUB stock was serviced on Wimbledon Park depot after the evening peak each day, then tripped across late evening from the depot via a long ladder direct in to platform 8, then shunted in to the siding, ready to form early services starting Wimbledon p8 the next day. This worked ok, until sometime in the 80's, possibly about 1984, but after all the SUBs had gone, when a track rationalisation in the Wimbledon station area, removed part of the ladder, after which there was no direct connection between the depot and platform 8, which made the use of those sidings unworkable (from Wimbledon depot). Siding No 1 was also shortened further about this time, with the buffers positioned adjacent to the top of the flyover. I don't recall when these sidings were last used, although they are both still there I believe, with conductor rail(s). In todays world I know the depot would be very reluctant to stable trains in there, even if the sidings were brought back up to operational standard.

 

[wimbledonpete]

Known variously as Down Sidings A & B, Down Sidings 1 & 2, or going back to the 70's we used the term 'South Sidings 1 & 2'. No 1 alongside the Down Slow (SW) Line was the longest, and we stabled 4 x 8 SUB (32 cars) in there every night. The siding went on a bit further (without a third rail) and stopped just short of Durnsford Road Bridge at that time. In earlier times it went under said bridge where the very end of the siding formed a shunt neck for a private siding, which (I think?) was part of Wimbledon Borough Council's depot.

The above mentioned SUB stock was serviced on Wimbledon Park depot after the evening peak each day, then tripped across late evening from the depot via a long ladder direct in to platform 8, then shunted in to the siding, ready to form early services starting Wimbledon p8 the next day. This worked ok, until sometime in the 80's, possibly about 1984, but after all the SUBs had gone, when a track rationalisation in the Wimbledon station area, removed part of the ladder, after which there was no direct connection between the depot and platform 8, which made the use of those sidings unworkable (from Wimbledon depot). Siding No 1 was also shortened further about this time, with the buffers positioned adjacent to the top of the flyover. I don't recall when these sidings were last used, although they are both still there I believe, with conductor rail(s). In todays world I know the depot would be very reluctant to stable trains in there, even if the sidings were brought back up to operational standard.

I must have seen that happening and it must have been so commonplace that I would have ignored it, as you do. Funny what you do remember - SUB 4660 with the protruding headcode boxes for instance. For a long time internally it was one of the grubbiest, stinkiest trains around and my heart always sank when it came in. It did finally get a scrub-up, though.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

If you want to know more about the stabling (if any) in the Dundonald Road siding (not something I was ever involved in as it was a Central Div location for operational purposes) certainly in my SW days, you need to find a copy of a Central Div 'Carriage Working Notice for Electric trains', (not just the 'Appendix to the Carriage Workings' which won't give that sort of detail), applicable to one of the years you are interested in. Proper CWN's for sale seem to be thin on the ground on the web these days. There is one chap (jtpend? type in 'Carriage Working Notices' on the Bay) but most of those he is selling are fascimilies, and again mostly of Appendix to CWN, and /or steam era stuff. Have even noticed some fascimilies of documents I had a hand in producing - how bizarre!

If you want to know more about the stabling (if any) in the Dundonald Road siding

Further to above. there's no certainty that this siding will be shown in the CWN. If it was only used for Short term reasons, ie Engineering works turn back moves, that will have only been reflected in the Altered Carr Working Notices (ACWN's), which were paper (hand written or at best typed) documents issued just for the day of operation, and so binned afterwards as a rule.
Have no idea if you are familiar with the format of the CWN's or not, but have attached pages from the SW edition (SX days - Wimbledon station) showing the moves involving the SW South Siding 1 as also spoken of.

If I'm preaching to the converted, please forgive me!

The inbound workings (to the station in the title) are on the right hand side, and the outgoing service they form next/next day, on the left hand side, and all are arranged in departure time (left side) order. There is a very good reason for this, but I won't digress here.

The May 1973-May 74 edition only involves 3 x 8 SUB sets, so the siding wasn't full, the first leaves the siding at 06+18 (+ refers to an empty/ECS train) arriving in platform 8 at 06+19, and forms the 06 20 1/2 to Chessington. Half minutes in timings schedules at starting and terminal locations were done away with in later years.
The next departure is shown from 'Berth, South Sidings' - the reason for this being it is an empty train from the siding all the way to Chessington, so no need to show its passing time at Wimbledon p8. Likewise the third departure which leaves the siding at 07+56 and empty to Epsom. In later (Computer era) days, because the way computer programmes work, every actual location where a train started/finished or reversed had its own entry, which Wimbledon South Sidings would have had, had they still been used.

Between the peaks one 8 car SUB makes use of the siding, arriving Wimbledon P8 10+03 (09+50 from Waterloo), and departs P8 at 10+05 in to the siding. In modern times (with empty trains DOO) a two minute reversal would not be permitted in normal circumstances as the driver would have to change ends (5 or 6 mins for an 8 car IIRC which wouldn't work within the timetable due to frequency of other services through p8) and drive from the leading cab at all times, but back then the guard would still be on the train, and will likely have ridden in the London end cab to oversee the move in to the siding, the driver propelling same from the country end cab, unless a second relieving driver was diagrammed for the shunt?

This train then leaves the siding again at 16+06 and runs empty to Chessington.

The first 8 SUB to stable every night is the 20+20 from Waterloo, due Wimbledon p8 at 20+33, and shunting in to South Siding at 20+36, and it would have to run towards the London end of the siding to allow the other two 8 cars to arrive in behind. Its next working was the 07+56 next SX day - as above - first in/last out. The previous working of this set was a parcels train from Epsom to Waterloo, which sat at Waterloo for a half hour, where arrangements would have been in place to have the units swept out/litter picked.
The remaining two sets trip over from Wimbledon Depot, as I mentioned up thread, the first at 21+30 from the depot (for 06+36 next SX day), the last at 22+30 for 06+18 next SX day (last in/first out).

These were designed to stand spare at weekends, for the simple reason that many units were not needed, unless for engineering work purposes, and it was/is easier from a crewing point to use units stabled within depots and at locations more readily accessible for crews.

By comparison the second image of the same location relates to May 1978-May 79, when a number of EPB's have now replaced many SUB's.

 

[wimbledonpete]

If you want to know more about the stabling (if any) in the Dundonald Road siding (not something I was ever involved in as it was a Central Div location for operational purposes) certainly in my SW days, you need to find a copy of a Central Div 'Carriage Working Notice for Electric trains', (not just the 'Appendix to the Carriage Workings' which won't give that sort of detail), applicable to one of the years you are interested in. Proper CWN's for sale seem to be thin on the ground on the web these days. There is one chap (jtpend? type in 'Carriage Working Notices' on the Bay) but most of those he is selling are fascimilies, and again mostly of Appendix to CWN, and /or steam era stuff. Have even noticed some fascimilies of documents I had a hand in producing - how bizarre!


Further to above. there's no certainty that this siding will be shown in the CWN. If it was only used for Short term reasons, ie Engineering works turn back moves, that will have only been reflected in the Altered Carr Working Notices (ACWN's), which were paper (hand written or at best typed) documents issued just for the day of operation, and so binned afterwards as a rule.
Have no idea if you are familiar with the format of the CWN's or not, but have attached pages from the SW edition (SX days - Wimbledon station) showing the moves involving the SW South Siding 1 as also spoken of.

If I'm preaching to the converted, please forgive me!

The inbound workings (to the station in the title) are on the right hand side, and the outgoing service they form next/next day, on the left hand side, and all are arranged in departure time (left side) order. There is a very good reason for this, but I won't digress here.

The May 1973-May 74 edition only involves 3 x 8 SUB sets, so the siding wasn't full, the first leaves the siding at 06+18 (+ refers to an empty/ECS train) arriving in platform 8 at 06+19, and forms the 06 20 1/2 to Chessington. Half minutes in timings schedules at starting and terminal locations were done away with in later years.
The next departure is shown from 'Berth, South Sidings' - the reason for this being it is an empty train from the siding all the way to Chessington, so no need to show its passing time at Wimbledon p8. Likewise the third departure which leaves the siding at 07+56 and empty to Epsom. In later (Computer era) days, because the way computer programmes work, every actual location where a train started/finished or reversed had its own entry, which Wimbledon South Sidings would have had, had they still been used.

Between the peaks one 8 car SUB makes use of the siding, arriving Wimbledon P8 10+03 (09+50 from Waterloo), and departs P8 at 10+05 in to the siding. In modern times (with empty trains DOO) a two minute reversal would not be permitted in normal circumstances as the driver would have to change ends (5 or 6 mins for an 8 car IIRC which wouldn't work within the timetable due to frequency of other services through p8) and drive from the leading cab at all times, but back then the guard would still be on the train, and will likely have ridden in the London end cab to oversee the move in to the siding, the driver propelling same from the country end cab, unless a second relieving driver was diagrammed for the shunt?

This train then leaves the siding again at 16+06 and runs empty to Chessington.

The first 8 SUB to stable every night is the 20+20 from Waterloo, due Wimbledon p8 at 20+33, and shunting in to South Siding at 20+36, and it would have to run towards the London end of the siding to allow the other two 8 cars to arrive in behind. Its next working was the 07+56 next SX day - as above - first in/last out. The previous working of this set was a parcels train from Epsom to Waterloo, which sat at Waterloo for a half hour, where arrangements would have been in place to have the units swept out/litter picked.
The remaining two sets trip over from Wimbledon Depot, as I mentioned up thread, the first at 21+30 from the depot (for 06+36 next SX day), the last at 22+30 for 06+18 next SX day (last in/first out).

These were designed to stand spare at weekends, for the simple reason that many units were not needed, unless for engineering work purposes, and it was/is easier from a crewing point to use units stabled within depots and at locations more readily accessible for crews.

By comparison the second image of the same location relates to May 1978-May 79, when a number of EPB's have now replaced many SUB's.

Amazing info, thanks! I like how SUBs were so standard that they're shown with just a number - eg 8 - where EPBs/VEPs etc are mentioned specifically.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Known variously as Down Sidings A & B, Down Sidings 1 & 2, or going back to the 70's we used the term 'South Sidings 1 & 2'. No 1 alongside the Down Slow (SW) Line was the longest, and we stabled 4 x 8 SUB (32 cars) in there every night. The siding went on a bit further (without a third rail) and stopped just short of Durnsford Road Bridge at that time. In earlier times it went under said bridge where the very end of the siding formed a shunt neck for a private siding, which (I think?) was part of Wimbledon Borough Council's depot.

The above mentioned SUB stock was serviced on Wimbledon Park depot after the evening peak each day, then tripped across late evening from the depot via a long ladder direct in to platform 8, then shunted in to the siding, ready to form early services starting Wimbledon p8 the next day. This worked ok, until sometime in the 80's, possibly about 1984, but after all the SUBs had gone, when a track rationalisation in the Wimbledon station area, removed part of the ladder, after which there was no direct connection between the depot and platform 8, which made the use of those sidings unworkable (from Wimbledon depot). Siding No 1 was also shortened further about this time, with the buffers positioned adjacent to the top of the flyover. I don't recall when these sidings were last used, although they are both still there I believe, with conductor rail(s). In todays world I know the depot would be very reluctant to stable trains in there, even if the sidings were brought back up to operational standard.

The two sidings are very much overgrown these days, with saplings growing up in the four foot. This suggests that they've not been used in a long time. They do look as though they're still connected, would the conductor rails still be live?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The two sidings are very much overgrown these days, with saplings growing up in the four foot. This suggests that they've not been used in a long time. They do look as though they're still connected, would the conductor rails still be live?

Agree in the first instant, but in ref to your very last comment, I will only be governed by an instruction I was given at a basic training induction course in the 70's, in that unless specifically informed otherwise, any third rail, no matter how long seemingly out of use, must be considered to be live.