Stafford to Birmingham Season ticket: permitted via Lichfield?

[Ed92uk]

Evening all,

I am happy to post full story once on a PC (I’m not sure of the detail allowed I am guess just not staff names) but please could a more educated user help me with confirming my season ticket is valid...

Stafford to Birmingham Stations just under £180 per month. I travelled this evening via Lichfield Trent Valley leading to what I believe very poor customer service from 2 companies and I need to clarify before drafting my letters.

I will forget for a moment that I purchase this in station where I verbally asked valid via Lichfield but I believe this is valid for a few other reasons.

I can buy online and print an itinerary from Stafford to Birmingham New Street traveling to Lichfield Trent Valley and crossing to the local service through Lichfield City etc. This is the same ticket and same price STA-BHM any route. I can achieve this on national rail enquiries but also from any TOC website using the via option.

I have checked the routing guide. I have no internal knowledge of this however it seems to be quite simple. I am looking at Liverpool to Birmigham map. This shows that a ticket such as above is valid from Stafford traveling via either Wolverhampton, Rugeley, Lichfield or Tamworth. As long as I only travel through each station once.

On a season ticket I am free to break, start or end my journey as many times as I want. There is no requirement to travel all the way to my destination. If I wanted to travel between say Tipton and Dudley only for a week this would be acceptable (just a waste of money).


I simply cannot understand how a normal off peak return ticket would be valid to achieve all this yet a season ticket would not be.

Thank you for any clarifications and response.

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forum.

Stafford to Birmingham is valid via Lichfield on map BV.

Your season ticket is valid for unlimited journeys on any permitted route, boarding/alighting at any intermediate station.

Some staff have no knowledge of such matters and just make things up and mislead/mistreat people for no reason. It's not the first time and won't be the last.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Travelling via Lichfield is eminently reasonable; in fact your ticket is valid as far as Tamworth (and then over to BHM) on the Trent Valley section of the West Coast Mainline.

I'm quite surprised you had any problems travelling that way. WMT guards are usually a fairly tame (although not necessarily any better trained than average!) bunch, so were you travelling on Virgin on one of the morning/evening rush hour services perhaps? Even then, regardless of operator it's quite unusual to encounter a ticket check at all on the Stafford-Lichfield stretch, let alone Lichfield to Birmingham!

I would certainly be intrigued to hear what exactly you were told (or perhaps the made-up reason you were told your route wasn't valid!). Were you charged an additional fare; did you have your details taken; were you refused entry at a station? Or was it 'merely' a case of bad customer service (i.e. an argument)?

 

[Ed92uk]

Welcome to the forum.

Stafford to Birmingham is valid via Lichfield on map BV.

Your season ticket is valid for unlimited journeys on any permitted route, boarding/alighting at any intermediate station.

Some staff have no knowledge of such matters and just make things up and mislead/mistreat people for no reason. It's not the first time and won't be the last.

Thank you for your prompt reply I appreciate your confirmation. Map BV is indeed the same map I referred to earlier.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

And for the record, there very occasionally is a difference between walkup (i.e. non-season) tickets and season tickets in terms of the routes that are permitted. Nevertheless, that is quite rare and, excepting unusual circumstances, an itinerary by NRE offered in conjunction with a walkup ticket of the same origin/destination/route as the season ticket should be accepted as evidence of that itinerary's route being a permitted route. As far as I'm aware, there is no such difference here.

 

[Ed92uk]

Travelling via Lichfield is eminently reasonable; in fact your ticket is valid as far as Tamworth (and then over to BHM) on the Trent Valley section of the West Coast Mainline.

I'm quite surprised you had any problems travelling that way. WMT guards are usually a fairly tame (although not necessarily any better trained than average!) bunch, so were you travelling on Virgin on one of the morning/evening rush hour services perhaps? Even then, regardless of operator it's quite unusual to encounter a ticket check at all on the Stafford-Lichfield stretch, let alone Lichfield to Birmingham!

I would certainly be intrigued to hear what exactly you were told (or perhaps the made-up reason you were told your route wasn't valid!). Were you charged an additional fare; did you have your details taken; were you refused entry at a station? Or was it 'merely' a case of bad customer service (i.e. an argument)?

Thank you for your reply. I have been using this ticket / route for around 6 months and actually have found the exact opposite with Virgin. Most days I travel on the VT West Coast peak AM service which usually raises a few questions but as soon as I say Lichfield its a smile and move on. The dispute was between Rugeley and Stafford where the conductor requested I pay for a new ticket. Additionally she was very pleasant at first and offered to sell me part journey of Rugeley to Stafford as a favour. On my reluctance to pay I have had my ticket defaced in red ink saying invalid (given back to me) and I have paid an anytime single to Stafford. Unfortunately the train was empty but I was swore at and spoken to extremely rudely over the 5 minutes or so. I am currently typing up the full story which continued at Stafford I don't want to post he said, she said, I said etc.

 

[yorkie]

West Midlands Trains are in breach of contract. Are they also the retailer? This needs a high level complaint.

Questions one could ask when told a permitted route isn't permitted:
Q1) Which routes are permitted?
Q2) Where do I find out which routes are permitted?
Q3) If this route isn't permitted, why will your website sell me a ticket for this route?

And if they become rude or abusive you have to be very careful not to rise to it; and some staff have been known to act in a way that provokes passengers into reacting badly and BTP as well as other staff may well believe staff over passengers. It's not a level playing field.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thank you for your reply. I have been using this ticket / route for around 6 months and actually have found the exact opposite with Virgin. Most days I travel on the VT West Coast peak AM service which usually raises a few questions but as soon as I say Lichfield its a smile and move on. The dispute was between Rugeley and Stafford where the conductor requested I pay for a new ticket. Additionally she was very pleasant at first and offered to sell me part journey of Rugeley to Stafford as a favour. On my reluctance to pay I have had my ticket defaced in red ink saying invalid (given back to me) and I have paid an anytime single to Stafford. Unfortunately the train was empty but I was swore at and spoken to extremely rudely over the 5 minutes or so. I am currently typing up the full story which continued at Stafford I don't want to post he said, she said, I said etc.

Just for clarification, did this all happen on a WMT service?

Would you be able to upload a picture of the defaced ticket (with the ticket number - the 5 digit one and the long one - as well as the issued-to name, photocard number etc. pixelated/blurred/removed)?

Did you get the name of the Train Manager/Conductor responsible? Or was this an RPI?

 

[yorkie]

Did you get the name of the Train Manager/Conductor responsible?

Don't post it here but it doesn't really matter because the train company will be able to identify them. But get the complaint in promptly.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Don't post it here but it doesn't really matter because the train company will be able to identify them. But get the complaint in promptly.

No, I don't think it should be posted here, but I think it's always a useful help to adding credibility to testimony.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Thank you for your reply. I have been using this ticket / route for around 6 months and actually have found the exact opposite with Virgin. Most days I travel on the VT West Coast peak AM service which usually raises a few questions but as soon as I say Lichfield its a smile and move on. The dispute was between Rugeley and Stafford where the conductor requested I pay for a new ticket. Additionally she was very pleasant at first and offered to sell me part journey of Rugeley to Stafford as a favour. On my reluctance to pay I have had my ticket defaced in red ink saying invalid (given back to me) and I have paid an anytime single to Stafford. Unfortunately the train was empty but I was swore at and spoken to extremely rudely over the 5 minutes or so. I am currently typing up the full story which continued at Stafford I don't want to post he said, she said, I said etc.

Are you saying she defaced your valid season ticket and wrote "invalid" on it? If so, that's outrageous and a gross breach of your contract. Whether or not she thought you could use it for THAT journey, it's certainly still still valid for making other journeys. They have no right to cancel your ticket on the grounds of a dispute over a route and being annoyed at being challenged. I would take this one all the way in your position.

 

[Ed92uk]

Without boring everyone with the exact details I have managed to get the season ticket replaced but I did take a photo and I also believe this will now be filed away at the station so there will be further evidence. The red marker pen stated "RA Not Valid Via Lich"

I have the names of the staff involved. Sad to say the WMT guard I see regularly and have never had any issues with (same journey most days). I even pointed out she regularly checks my ticket.

2 phone calls were made from the WMT guard on speaker to the Virgin office at Stafford where my name and photo card number were read out. The WMT guard acted on Virgin's advise that my ticket was invalid. On return to Stafford I spoke with the staff from the phone call who were certain that the routing guide had never allowed via Lichfield, were certain I needed to buy 2 tickets for my journey, certain I could only travel via Wolverhampton and their system didn't allow them to check. As my local and helpful friendly station it pains me to say it but Stafford attitude was appalling. The new Virgin tablet were shoved round to face me asking me to prove the ticket was valid (I didn't). Stafford colleague even went as far as to say the guard was correct in swearing at you as you just don't understand you are wrong. I remained calm throughout, stuck to facts and didn't resort to personal comments. I have to say those on arriving home I am quite shaken and stressed by the whole situation. I can deal with a £7 mistake that will be refunded next year I cant deal with the attitudes of all involved and the refusal to spend 2 minutes checking facts.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Without boring everyone with the exact details I have managed to get the season ticket replaced but I did take a photo and I also believe this will now be filed away at the station so there will be further evidence. The red marker pen stated "RA Not Valid Via Lich"

I have the names of the staff involved. Sad to say the WMT guard I see regularly and have never had any issues with (same journey most days). I even pointed out she regularly checks my ticket.

2 phone calls were made from the WMT guard on speaker to the Virgin office at Stafford where my name and photo card number were read out. The WMT guard acted on Virgin's advise that my ticket was invalid. On return to Stafford I spoke with the staff from the phone call who were certain that the routing guide had never allowed via Lichfield, were certain I needed to buy 2 tickets for my journey, certain I could only travel via Wolverhampton and their system didn't allow them to check. As my local and helpful friendly station it pains me to say it but Stafford attitude was appalling. The new Virgin tablet were shoved round to face me asking me to prove the ticket was valid (I didn't). Stafford colleague even went as far as to say the guard was correct in swearing at you as you just don't understand you are wrong. I remained calm throughout, stuck to facts and didn't resort to personal comments. I have to say those on arriving home I am quite shaken and stressed by the whole situation. I can deal with a £7 mistake that will be refunded next year I cant deal with the attitudes of all involved and the refusal to spend 2 minutes checking facts.

Oh dear. I have to say, that attitude does not surprise me from Stafford ticket office; many of the members of staff there seem to have the notorious Virgin anti-customer attitude. It's just not the same friendliness you can expect from a smaller station's ticket office!

That the staff members at Stafford t/o think the permitted routes are defined purely by "what the tablet shows" would almost be amusing in how laughably wrong it is - were it not for the fact that they then dug themselves deeper in the brown stuff by claiming that the guard was justified in swearing at you! I wonder what their reaction would be if you went off on a wobbler like that towards them... oh wait a minute, they'd call the railway's own private little militia, the BTP ...

And equally, I don't see why on earth the WMT guard thought that the correct response to not being sure whether your ticket was valid was to charge you for a new ticket, or to call a different TOC's ticket office, let alone to shout, or swear, at you.

This is indeed a shocking incident - and rather different to many of the incidents we hear about here, insofar as it is definitely not the kind of thing I've experienced with guards in this area (especially WMT guards). I say take the complaint right to the top; in a way it is unfortunate that you were 'only' overcharged by £7 as that is an amount that they would refund in the blink of an eye (it being quite obviously wrong). Had you been overcharged more you would have a strong legal case against WMT; as it is you're more or less at the mercy of their customer relations department, who are not much more competent than the other TOCs (though they don't have the pervasive anti-passenger attitude some TOCs have).

I suspect this may be one where, if you can't reach an acceptable settlement with WMT (i.e. an apology, promise of correct training, some compensation), you might have to consider going 'external' - i.e. contacting your MP, the media etc. I have to say, WMT don't have a bad rapport with the media or the MPs etc. (in the same way Thameslink/Southern/Northern do!) so it would be quite an unusual story really. But that is for later, if and when it becomes necessary.

 

[Ed92uk]

Oh dear. I have to say, that attitude does not surprise me from Stafford ticket office; many of the members of staff there seem to have the notorious Virgin anti-customer attitude. It's just not the same friendliness you can expect from a smaller station's ticket office!

That the staff members at Stafford t/o think the permitted routes are defined purely by "what the tablet shows" would almost be amusing in how laughably wrong it is - were it not for the fact that they then dug themselves deeper in the brown stuff by claiming that the guard was justified in swearing at you! I wonder what their reaction would be if you went off on a wobbler like that towards them... oh wait a minute, they'd call the railway's own private little militia, the BTP ...

And equally, I don't see why on earth the WMT guard thought that the correct response to not being sure whether your ticket was valid was to charge you for a new ticket, or to call a different TOC's ticket office, let alone to shout, or swear, at you.

This is indeed a shocking incident - and rather different to many of the incidents we hear about here, insofar as it is definitely not the kind of thing I've experienced with guards in this area (especially WMT guards). I say take the complaint right to the top; in a way it is unfortunate that you were 'only' overcharged by £7 as that is an amount that they would refund in the blink of an eye (it being quite obviously wrong). Had you been overcharged more you would have a strong legal case against WMT; as it is you're more or less at the mercy of their customer relations department, who are not much more competent than the other TOCs (though they don't have the pervasive anti-passenger attitude some TOCs have).

I suspect this may be one where, if you can't reach an acceptable settlement with WMT (i.e. an apology, promise of correct training, some compensation), you might have to consider going 'external' - i.e. contacting your MP, the media etc. I have to say, WMT don't have a bad rapport with the media or the MPs etc. (in the same way Thameslink/Southern/Northern do!) so it would be quite an unusual story really. But that is for later, if and when it becomes necessary.

My personal view if this hadn't had escalated quite so far is I would forgive the WMT conductor on refund of my money. On reflection that isn't the right option as the employer needs to offer retraining but being given wrong information whilst working alone I imagine can put her in an awkward position. The swearing at me whilst yes only once was to far. As the only person in the carriage I doubt I will get far with that complaint. My focus is the arrangement (formal between the 2 TOC's or a local arrangement which needs to stop) between the guard and the booking office clerk. WMT have contacted a 3rd party discussing my personal details over the phone. Many readers will be the same as me in the workplace where there is a massive focus on GDPR at the moment. On arrival in Stafford I was honestly shocked. I have to disagree with you (sorry) but I have always had excellent customer service and attitude from Stafford. Even when buying a season ticket and then a cycle reservation for multiple days. Its the blatant refusal to accept that things could have changed or a mistake had been made rather than just spend a minute or so verifying the facts. I strongly considered refusing to pay and awaiting the BTP but ultimately that would end up worse for me.

I am going to deliver a letter to the station tomorrow in the hope they can resolve this internally. If as I suspect they are unable to accept this I will have to follow the usual complaint procedure and forget about the incident for the next few months.

Thank you for your replies again I did consider this was maybe me and I was expecting to much for them to just do their job correctly so I am glad others are as shocked as me. I am really keen for this to be highlighted at Stafford ASAP as I am conscious the only defence will be the customer was abusive violent etc and I want the CCTV saved to help prove otherwise.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just a few assorted comments about what you said:

The WMT guard acted on Virgin's advise that my ticket was invalid.

If you are unsure and have to ask another TOC's ticket office, that's a pretty good indication you're too unsure to be charging someone extra money!

On return to Stafford I spoke with the staff from the phone call who were certain that the routing guide had never allowed via Lichfield

The Routeing Guide originally attempted to encapsulate all the 'reasonable routes' permitted in BR days. Back in BR days and the early days of privatisation, going via Lichfield was no less reasonable than it is now, but it is true that at the inception of the Routeing Guide, travelling via anywhere other than Wolverhampton or Rugby(!) was not actually permitted, and that gradually the permitted routes expanded to include via Nuneaton, via Walsall etc. I understand that via Lichfield became permitted by 2006-2007 at the latest.

So in other words, for over half the time that the Routeing Guide has existed at all, it has been a permitted route (and it has always been a reasonable route). Clearly their knowledge of the Routeing Guide is not nearly as good as they think!

their system didn't allow them to check

Then they shouldn't be confidently be telling you it's not valid other than via Wolverhampton! The correct procedure for anything that has any significance in life that you're unsure about is to find out more before giving a final answer. That they admitted they didn't check and couldn't check and yet confidently claimed it was only valid via Wolverhampton shows an extremely serious and worrying (but not surprising) lack of understanding of basic customer service skills. Why am I not surprised that the rail industry suffers from seeming to be unable (or unwilling?) to get rid of (or properly retrain) 'dead wood' like this!

The new Virgin tablet were shoved round to face me asking me to prove the ticket was valid

Quite clearly their training for the new system is atrocious; I have seen so many Virgin ticket office staff members at an innumerable number of ticket offices being unable to operate the new tablet-based system properly. To be entirely fair to them, I'm sure it's complex and very different to what they had previously used for many years. But equally I know for a fact that there is a computer with access to NRE etc. at Stafford ticket office, so it shows pure laziness and/or contempt to fare-paying customers that they were unwilling to look up an itinerary on NRE! I'm not sure some people at certain ticket offices quite understand that the passengers are the ones who pay their wages.

 

[JB_B]

This is just dreadful. It's not as if it's in any way an unreasonable route nor a route that's recently changed validity.

Who replaced your defaced season ticket - was it the same staff?

I hope you get a good outcome - it would be great if you can post your progress here if you're able to.

 

[Ed92uk]

Sorry ForTheLoveOf I am not sure how to quote the sections -

I am almost certain (but I would be unable nor is it up to me to prove) that the WMT and VT staff knew each other. They were extremely casual and so informal it was more friendly than asking a colleague.

Whilst your knowledge of the routing guide is obviously very high standard and more than the staff I have encountered tonight I honestly believe it is of no concern to the average passenger. I buy a ticket from A to B if I ask to travel via X Y and Z and pay the price to do so that is the end of it. I only knew to check from reading previous postings on here.

 

[Ed92uk]

This is just dreadful. It's not as if it's in any way an unreasonable route nor a route that's recently changed validity.

Who replaced your defaced season ticket - was it the same staff?

I hope you get a good outcome - it would be great if you can post your progress here if you're able to.

Yes the same staff at Stafford replaced the ticket just before closing. My sense was that they had realised something wasn't quite right, couldn't back down so when I suggested a solution which would get rid of me it was accepted. I was happy to walk away at that point and pick up in the morning in writing. If there was any kind of doubt that your TOC is being ripped off I cant see any option where the solution would be to let the customer walk away with a brand new ticket.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Sorry ForTheLoveOf I am not sure how to quote the sections -

I am almost certain (but I would be unable nor is it up to me to prove) that the WMT and VT staff knew each other. They were extremely casual and so informal it was more friendly than asking a colleague.

Whilst your knowledge of the routing guide is obviously very high standard and more than the staff I have encountered tonight I honestly believe it is of no concern to the average passenger. I buy a ticket from A to B if I ask to travel via X Y and Z and pay the price to do so that is the end of it. I only knew to check from reading previous postings on here.

(It's easy to quote sections, simply by highlighting the text and then selecting "quote" in the popup menu if there are several bits you want to quote, or reply if there's just the one. If you've added several bits to quote, you'll see an "Insert Quote(s)" button in the reply editor)

I agree that it is disappointing that a high level of understanding is required to answer the simple question of what routes your ticket is valid via. It should be possible to enter the details of your ticket into a part of NRE and then to receive a list of routes, or to be able to construct any itinerary and then test whether that follows a permitted route. Equally, there is even an argument that, if you were told that your season ticket was valid via Lichfield, it became a specific term of the contract (quite aside from any validity offered by the Routeing Guide) under Section 50(1)(a) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

 

[Starmill]

The new Virgin tablet were shoved round to face me asking me to prove the ticket was valid (I didn't).

That would have been amusing.

My source suggests that the Atos product doesn't by default offer any routing validation whatsoever - that is to say it will issue a ticket on any itinerary. I would love to know the exact specification that VT have procured.

Stafford colleague even went as far as to say the guard was correct in swearing at you as you just don't understand you are wrong.

I would refuse to speak further with anyone (except perhaps a police officer...) after they'd expressed this point of view to me.

Swearing at a customer would be considered grounds for dismissal in many customer service roles.

 

[sheff1]

The Routeing Guide originally attempted to encapsulate all the 'reasonable routes' permitted in BR days. Back in BR days and the early days of privatisation, going via Lichfield was no less reasonable than it is now, but it is true that at the inception of the Routeing Guide, travelling via anywhere other than Wolverhampton or Rugby(!) was not actually permitted, and that gradually the permitted routes expanded to include via Nuneaton, via Walsall etc. I understand that via Lichfield became permitted by 2006-2007 at the latest.

In the Routeing Guide dated Sept 1997 a Stafford to Birmingham ticket was valid via Lichfield on Map CN.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

In the Routeing Guide dated Sept 1997 a Stafford to Birmingham ticket was valid via Lichfield on Map CN.

Stafford was not a Routeing Point in its own right at the time; its associated Routeing Points were Crewe, Rugeley, Stoke-on-Trent and Wolverhampton. Of those it should be plainly obvious that only Wolverhampton passes the fares check, and thus only the maps from Wolverhampton to Birmingham - LM - are permitted. At the time, LM had no link between the Trent Valley line and the Stour Valley line, except at Stafford and Rugby.

 

[sheff1]

it should be plainly obvious that only Wolverhampton passes the fares check,

How is it "plainly obvious" that Rugeley does not pass the fares check ?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

How is it "plainly obvious" that Rugeley does not pass the fares check ?

Because modern day and historic fares were higher!

Edit: I realised I've had a brain fart. Of course both pass, not sure what I was thinking!

 

[Jonfun]

It really frustrates me to see things like this. If only there was a procedure that can be used for situations like this where a member of staff thinks a ticket isn't valid but the passenger thinks it is; you could call it, say, a TIR, and a manager or someone in the revenue team off the train with access to the right systems and with more time could investigate further without subjecting the passenger to abuse or having to pay for another ticket.

 

[Randomer]

To put the cat amongst the pigeons you could phone up BTP (or your local force using 101 who would then pass you to BTP) and make a complaint that by being sworn at by the member of staff concerned you felt harassed,alarmed or distressed contrary to Section 5 Public Order Act 1986. It would also be a breach of the railway bylaws but they do not fall under the national crime reporting standards. Be very sure you did not swear or otherwise act in a manner that could have been perceived as aggressive before doing this.

The national crime reporting standards mean they have to take a report if the person reporting reasonably thinks an offence has taken place. I have no doubt some staff would have reported you if you had sworn at them. Not that the offence would go anywhere without further corroboration but it would also pretty much force the hand of the TOC concerned in dealing with a complaint.

Also the member of staff should not have
A) Defaced a valid ticket rather than doing a TIR.
B) Sworn at somebody over a ticketing matter.

 

[Puffing Devil]

It really frustrates me to see things like this. If only there was a procedure that can be used for situations like this where a member of staff thinks a ticket isn't valid but the passenger thinks it is; you could call it, say, a TIR, and a manager or someone in the revenue team off the train with access to the right systems and with more time could investigate further without subjecting the passenger to abuse or having to pay for another ticket.

Maybe there could even be a published policy? Never catch on, crazy idea!

 

[yorkie]

Just in case anyone is in doubt, jonfun's post was tounge in cheek; the TIR procedure does already exist, however some staff choose not to act in accordance with procedures and instead wrongly charge a customer or deny travel.

I'm aware of dozens of such incidents this year alone, and I must only be aware of a very small percentage of overall incidents.

 

[Haywain]

I rather hope that Randomer's post was also tongue in cheek. Whilst having a member of staff swear is never acceptable, all of our police forces are extremely stretched and have far more important things to be dealing with.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I rather hope that Randomer's post was also tongue in cheek. Whilst having a member of staff swear is never acceptable, all of our police forces are extremely stretched and have far more important things to be dealing with.

Far more important things to deal with? So why exactly do the railway's pet police force, the BTP, turn up to reports of "antisocial behaviour" which are made up of nothing more than the same swearing and threats the OP experienced here?

It's one rule for all, not a separate set of rules for rail staff. If staff expect passengers to treat them with respect, and will call the police on passengers who swear at them (both of which are not unreasonable), then they can well expect to have the police called on them if they stoop to the unprofessional levels of swearing at passengers.