Staffordshire Bus News

[martinsh]

In my experience in Crewe, if D & G gain extra services from withdrawals by major operators (Arriva / First), they almost always reduce the PVR on their existing routes to at least partially resource their new services.

 

[James101]

In my experience in Crewe, if D & G gain extra services from withdrawals by major operators (Arriva / First), they almost always reduce the PVR on their existing routes to at least partially resource their new services.

For the moment at lease I can't see any pending cuts to allow for the new introductions. The majority of the gains are evening & Sunday so I imagine existing duties will just be extended. It does look like they'll need 3 buses for the new 10, wonder where they'll come from?

 

[Robertj21a]

Considering the changes were announced simultaneously and First are actively promoting the D&G replacements is almost certainly an indication the parties had communcated regarding the changes. The 'shady' aspect would be for competition authorities to look at - it's not entirely dissimilar to Arrive and Go North East - http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north-east-news/arriva-go-north-east-secret-4419286

There are some gaping holes left in the network that D&G could exploit. Granted getting a bus on the road is expensive, but I'm sure one extra bus on the 10s PVR to match/beat First's frequency along Beverly Drive would be justifiable - but it seems D&G don't wish to rock the boat too much. Also of note is the 1s upcoming timetable puts at an even headway along the shared corridor with First's 11 as opposed to the current (more competitive) timetable which places D&Gs buses just in front of First's. On this occasion, beneficial for the passenger, but also hints at deals being done.

There's a big difference between a shady deal [Arriva -Go North East] and First simply notifying affected customers of the alternatives that will be available to them. I view this as a bit more like First in Northampton vs Stagecoach. It was obvious to everybody that First was steadily collapsing in the town and there was nothing to stop Stagecoach registering their own services on top of the remaining First routes - but they didn't. If First withdrew a route then Stagecoach usually replaced it, or modified an existing route, it was obvious that the end was nigh and it just became a waiting game. There are a number of similarities with the situation at First in the Potteries albeit anybody interested in their routes is more likely to be D&G (or Rotala?) than any of the Big 4-5.

 

[Thin man]

D&G with the combined financial might of its associated companies and Julian Peddle could now launch an attack on core routes and kill off First Potteries if they wanted but I think they will wait for the whole thing to collapse and cherry pick what they want and have a monopoly in the area at that point.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

D&G .... (cut) .... I think they will wait for the whole thing to collapse and cherry pick what they want and have a monopoly in the area at that point.

That would be my vision of the future. Nigel Eggleton keeps claiming that they have a 'strategic plan', without revealing what that plan is. I suspect that this may well be the plan: Potteries is too big for D & G to swallow in one go, so it is happening incrementally.

I just wish the entrepreneurs were a bit more entrepreneurial in pushing for modest growth rather than managing terminal decline.

I don't expect a doubling of services overnight, that is simply unrealistic in the current market but I do think it reasonable to have a decent daytime and early evening bus service. For example, my last bus out of town is 1830 (service 6A), how about a 1930, perhaps 2030 and 2130 as well, to allow some kind of social life. Or just provide those timings on a Friday and Saturday?

First in The Potteries have zero imagination and zero flexibility. It must be the same everyday. It must be as simple as possible. You can have an evening service or you can have no evening service, no half way house.

They have buses available, which run private to garage, but they refuse to provide an attractive service. They even have buses ending service in Meir which could pick up the current return workings if some of the 6's were diverted to Blythe Bridge as 6A's instead. But no, why bother, enjoy your walk down the A50 instead, the exercise will be good for you.

In the reverse direction there is a 20 minute service to 1718 then the last bus at 1816 - arriving into town at 1807 and 1855 - too early even if you are prepared to make other arrangements to get home.

 

[Thin man]

Regarding the 6/6A services you are talking about. (I catch the 6) it would be reasonable instead of a half hourly 6 to have a for example 6 on the hour and a 6a at half past. There are enough passengers for sandon road and meir park to justify this. But because the 6a run takes longer and couldnt be done with the current 2 bus set up they dont. Zero flexibility and imagination as you say.
First will be genuinely puzzled why weekly and monthly ticket sales are down following this set of changes. Most of the evening passengers in particular use these...no bus...no ticket sales. First dont grasp this though.

 

[Robertj21a]

It's certainly frustrating to watch First (virtually anywhere, not just Potteries). Whereas Stagecoach tries to continually grow the business by attempting new approaches, route variations, frequency increases etc (some work, others are dropped), First has traditionally gone for simple retrenchment. This appears to be the preferred approach from 'on high' and, surprisingly, has little changed despite the ousting of Lockhead many years ago.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's certainly frustrating to watch First (virtually anywhere, not just Potteries). Whereas Stagecoach tries to continually grow the business by attempting new approaches, route variations, frequency increases etc (some work, others are dropped), First has traditionally gone for simple retrenchment. This appears to be the preferred approach from 'on high' and, surprisingly, has little changed despite the ousting of Lockhead many years ago.

I don't think that's entirely true though I do understand why you may say that, and indeed other posters (whose points I'll also cover). It is fair to say that all the industry is hurting at the moment; I was enjoying a pint with a mate who DOESN'T work for First but for another transport group, north of the Watford Gap. They have recently had to wield the knife on their urban networks particularly - these are areas that are "classic bus territory" in the old parlance - places where you just had to send out a bus and make a small fortune.

However, that just isn't happening now and the reasons are many fold. Firstly, people visiting the high street for shopping - it's declined by 22% in 10 years ON AVERAGE - in certain towns, it is considerably higher. One little stat is that Burslem (traditionally one of the main centres for bus services) is the WORST in the country for empty shop units. 31.5% of shops in Burslem are empty - the national average is 12%! The market has closed, ffs! What did Stoke on Trent council do to increase footfall and attract punters back into Hanley - they reduced parking charges!

Then you have the cutting of subsidies for evening services. Stoke Council have already done that; it has been mentioned on here that Staffs CC are now wielding the axe and I don't know if any of these cuts are a consequence of that. Whatever the case, many firms are left weighing up whether to run commercially (even at a loss in order to maintain network benefits) or not. The idea that Nigel Eggleton, a vastly experienced busman HASN'T done the sums, is frankly laughable. If it costs an extra £60 a night (and that's just marginal costs) to run til 2100/2130 and that is offset by an average net upside of £50 (either revenue gained or not lost), then they might do it. However, if the upside is £30 then think about it... £30 loss *6*52 - that's nearly £10k. Do that a few times and the figures get worrying!

Then you have the issue of the night-time economy. I've mentioned it before but the evening economy is not what it was, and that's for social reasons. All you have to do is look at the number of pubs that are now private residences, curry houses, nurseries, whatever. However we wish to look at it, society has changed and the night-time economy has changed markedly (perhaps excepting those areas with increasing student populations). I've recounted the example of a service in the North East - it was a service that was tendered on Mon to Wed nights but was busy on Thu to Sun esp. the 2300 departure on Fri/Sat, often being a nearly full single deck. However, once licensing hours were relaxed, it meant that you just couldn't cater for this now fragmented (and reducing) market - those journeys no longer exist.

Then add in the issue of taxis and the delights of Uber, and during the day, traffic congestion often caused by a myriad of delivery vans from DHL and UPS et al now sending your Amazon parcels out so you don't have to go shopping in town. Not just First saying this - Brian Souter has talked at length on this.

Now, have First made mistakes in the past? Of course, and I have little respect for Blockhead. Have they made them in recent years.... - I can think of some from my local subsidiary. The closure of Newcastle depot and then having to open an outbase later was clearly a cockup and doubtless there have been others. I don't know the operation so well (I did live on the other side of Staffordshire so it was more a case when passing through). My take on things is that the PMT operation was woefully managed for many years - peripheral from Manchester and surviving on minimal investment and cast offs. Mr Eggleton wanders in to discover a real basket case, the council cutting funds, poor quality and high costs, a collapsing market (and I take the point that First have damaged that in the past).

However, there are some fundamental weaknesses in the bus industry from changes outside their control, whether that is high street footfall, disrupters like Uber, and traffic congestion and everyone, not just First, is hurting. Stagecoach and Transdev are arguably the most innovative of the main operators though even the former have had to pare back their Ashford minibus services and they have been busy trimming away in Ayrshire, in Fife, in Devon, in Tyne and Wear, in Teesside (just off the top of my head). It's tough out there - glad I don't have to work in the industry!

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't think that's entirely true though I do understand why you may say that, and indeed other posters (whose points I'll also cover). It is fair to say that all the industry is hurting at the moment; I was enjoying a pint with a mate who DOESN'T work for First but for another transport group, north of the Watford Gap. They have recently had to wield the knife on their urban networks particularly - these are areas that are "classic bus territory" in the old parlance - places where you just had to send out a bus and make a small fortune.

However, that just isn't happening now and the reasons are many fold. Firstly, people visiting the high street for shopping - it's declined by 22% in 10 years ON AVERAGE - in certain towns, it is considerably higher. One little stat is that Burslem (traditionally one of the main centres for bus services) is the WORST in the country for empty shop units. 31.5% of shops in Burslem are empty - the national average is 12%! The market has closed, ffs! What did Stoke on Trent council do to increase footfall and attract punters back into Hanley - they reduced parking charges!

Then you have the cutting of subsidies for evening services. Stoke Council have already done that; it has been mentioned on here that Staffs CC are now wielding the axe and I don't know if any of these cuts are a consequence of that. Whatever the case, many firms are left weighing up whether to run commercially (even at a loss in order to maintain network benefits) or not. The idea that Nigel Eggleton, a vastly experienced busman HASN'T done the sums, is frankly laughable. If it costs an extra £60 a night (and that's just marginal costs) to run til 2100/2130 and that is offset by an average net upside of £50 (either revenue gained or not lost), then they might do it. However, if the upside is £30 then think about it... £30 loss *6*52 - that's nearly £10k. Do that a few times and the figures get worrying!

Then you have the issue of the night-time economy. I've mentioned it before but the evening economy is not what it was, and that's for social reasons. All you have to do is look at the number of pubs that are now private residences, curry houses, nurseries, whatever. However we wish to look at it, society has changed and the night-time economy has changed markedly (perhaps excepting those areas with increasing student populations). I've recounted the example of a service in the North East - it was a service that was tendered on Mon to Wed nights but was busy on Thu to Sun esp. the 2300 departure on Fri/Sat, often being a nearly full single deck. However, once licensing hours were relaxed, it meant that you just couldn't cater for this now fragmented (and reducing) market - those journeys no longer exist.

Then add in the issue of taxis and the delights of Uber, and during the day, traffic congestion often caused by a myriad of delivery vans from DHL and UPS et al now sending your Amazon parcels out so you don't have to go shopping in town. Not just First saying this - Brian Souter has talked at length on this.

Now, have First made mistakes in the past? Of course, and I have little respect for Blockhead. Have they made them in recent years.... - I can think of some from my local subsidiary. The closure of Newcastle depot and then having to open an outbase later was clearly a cockup and doubtless there have been others. I don't know the operation so well (I did live on the other side of Staffordshire so it was more a case when passing through). My take on things is that the PMT operation was woefully managed for many years - peripheral from Manchester and surviving on minimal investment and cast offs. Mr Eggleton wanders in to discover a real basket case, the council cutting funds, poor quality and high costs, a collapsing market (and I take the point that First have damaged that in the past).

However, there are some fundamental weaknesses in the bus industry from changes outside their control, whether that is high street footfall, disrupters like Uber, and traffic congestion and everyone, not just First, is hurting. Stagecoach and Transdev are arguably the most innovative of the main operators though even the former have had to pare back their Ashford minibus services and they have been busy trimming away in Ayrshire, in Fife, in Devon, in Tyne and Wear, in Teesside (just off the top of my head). It's tough out there - glad I don't have to work in the industry!

All very true, some good points there. I doubt that First Potteries is much different to 'better' operators struggling with similar problems right across the UK (as you rightly highlight) but it does seem that Potteries bus users were treated quite appalling - and for a surprisingly long period of time. I know it shouldn't be the only issue but I well recall visiting Hanley on a number of occasions and being amazed at the terrible condition of most of the First fleet. The staff seemed little better and, pre-the current management, there seemed to be little interest from anybody more senior.

I fear that the rot set in many years ago and the continuing decline across much of the area has only exacerbated the problem (quite apart from the other operational issues that affect all bus operators). D&G aren't, in my view, likely to be too keen to take on much more in the area, but someone like Rotala is always a possibility.

 

[6Gman]

D&G with the combined financial might of its associated companies and Julian Peddle could now launch an attack on core routes and kill off First Potteries if they wanted but I think they will wait for the whole thing to collapse and cherry pick what they want and have a monopoly in the area at that point.

It wasn't so long ago that First (by extending its Keele services to Madeley) was seen as a major threat to D&G's 85 service. Just can't see D&G being able to "kill off" the First Potteries operation - unless, of course, First HQ are content to see it go.

 

[Thin man]

It wasn't so long ago that First (by extending its Keele services to Madeley) was seen as a major threat to D&G's 85 service. Just can't see D&G being able to "kill off" the First Potteries operation - unless, of course, First HQ are content to see it go.

The point being that First HQ may not put up much of a fight now.

 

[Mugby]

What is regarded as HQ for First Potteries? Where is it administered from?

 

[Robertj21a]

It wasn't so long ago that First (by extending its Keele services to Madeley) was seen as a major threat to D&G's 85 service. Just can't see D&G being able to "kill off" the First Potteries operation - unless, of course, First HQ are content to see it go.

I think you will find that First are more than happy to see it go, preferably in an orderly manner without major upsets to staff or passengers. It's far more the case that there will be marginal interest from other suitable operators even though there's probably little 'goodwill' to be accounted for (the vehicles would just be moved elsewhere).

 

[daodao]

I think you will find that First are more than happy to see it go, preferably in an orderly manner without major upsets to staff or passengers. It's far more the case that there will be marginal interest from other suitable operators even though there's probably little 'goodwill' to be accounted for (the vehicles would just be moved elsewhere).

I don't understand why the key routes in the densely populated Potteries conurbation aren't sustainable without subsidies - it's not a rural area. Why are First seemingly unable to get a grip on the situation?

 

[James101]

I don't think that's entirely true though I do understand why you may say that, and indeed other posters (whose points I'll also cover). It is fair to say that all the industry is hurting at the moment; I was enjoying a pint with a mate who DOESN'T work for First but for another transport group, north of the Watford Gap. They have recently had to wield the knife on their urban networks particularly - these are areas that are "classic bus territory" in the old parlance - places where you just had to send out a bus and make a small fortune.

However, that just isn't happening now and the reasons are many fold. Firstly, people visiting the high street for shopping - it's declined by 22% in 10 years ON AVERAGE - in certain towns, it is considerably higher. One little stat is that Burslem (traditionally one of the main centres for bus services) is the WORST in the country for empty shop units. 31.5% of shops in Burslem are empty - the national average is 12%! The market has closed, ffs! What did Stoke on Trent council do to increase footfall and attract punters back into Hanley - they reduced parking charges!

Then you have the cutting of subsidies for evening services. Stoke Council have already done that; it has been mentioned on here that Staffs CC are now wielding the axe and I don't know if any of these cuts are a consequence of that. Whatever the case, many firms are left weighing up whether to run commercially (even at a loss in order to maintain network benefits) or not. The idea that Nigel Eggleton, a vastly experienced busman HASN'T done the sums, is frankly laughable. If it costs an extra £60 a night (and that's just marginal costs) to run til 2100/2130 and that is offset by an average net upside of £50 (either revenue gained or not lost), then they might do it. However, if the upside is £30 then think about it... £30 loss *6*52 - that's nearly £10k. Do that a few times and the figures get worrying!

Then you have the issue of the night-time economy. I've mentioned it before but the evening economy is not what it was, and that's for social reasons. All you have to do is look at the number of pubs that are now private residences, curry houses, nurseries, whatever. However we wish to look at it, society has changed and the night-time economy has changed markedly (perhaps excepting those areas with increasing student populations). I've recounted the example of a service in the North East - it was a service that was tendered on Mon to Wed nights but was busy on Thu to Sun esp. the 2300 departure on Fri/Sat, often being a nearly full single deck. However, once licensing hours were relaxed, it meant that you just couldn't cater for this now fragmented (and reducing) market - those journeys no longer exist.

Then add in the issue of taxis and the delights of Uber, and during the day, traffic congestion often caused by a myriad of delivery vans from DHL and UPS et al now sending your Amazon parcels out so you don't have to go shopping in town. Not just First saying this - Brian Souter has talked at length on this.

Now, have First made mistakes in the past? Of course, and I have little respect for Blockhead. Have they made them in recent years.... - I can think of some from my local subsidiary. The closure of Newcastle depot and then having to open an outbase later was clearly a cockup and doubtless there have been others. I don't know the operation so well (I did live on the other side of Staffordshire so it was more a case when passing through). My take on things is that the PMT operation was woefully managed for many years - peripheral from Manchester and surviving on minimal investment and cast offs. Mr Eggleton wanders in to discover a real basket case, the council cutting funds, poor quality and high costs, a collapsing market (and I take the point that First have damaged that in the past).

However, there are some fundamental weaknesses in the bus industry from changes outside their control, whether that is high street footfall, disrupters like Uber, and traffic congestion and everyone, not just First, is hurting. Stagecoach and Transdev are arguably the most innovative of the main operators though even the former have had to pare back their Ashford minibus services and they have been busy trimming away in Ayrshire, in Fife, in Devon, in Tyne and Wear, in Teesside (just off the top of my head). It's tough out there - glad I don't have to work in the industry!

Indeed the market is changing, generally against the bus operator. That said, the issues you bring up are fairly universal, yet service provision in the Potteries is disproportionally in decline. For as much as some factors are out of First's control, they really don't help themselves.

Hanley bus station is in the wrong place. The alleged plan was for it to be a catalyst for development in that quarter of the city, but 5 years on there's effectively only 1 and a half office blocks (Smithfield phase 1) to show for all the effort. Certainly, the commercial district which immediately surrounds the bus station has died a death - so much so the abandoned Hanley Shopping Precinct was used for a zombie film set (sadly not a joke - https://rocketthomerentals.com/blog/hollywood-comes-to-hanley ). At the same time, Intu Potteries has expanded their offering on the opposite end of the city centre, with 7 new restaurants, a cinema and new stores, increasing footfall.

Rather than seeing this as an opportunity, First still run buses only as far as the station (6/6A/11/12/13/21/23/32/101) which leaves up to a 15 minute walk to the shops. Where D&G have services coming in from the same areas as First's (16,43,9 & upcoming 10) they operate in a terminal loop around the city centre to ensure popular destinations are observed. You mention the decline in night-time economy; the 'Hive' development in Hanley is an absolute gift to bus operators. 7 restaurants and a cinema, largely marketed at young adults and selling them alcohol, located slap bang in the city. Do First observe the Hive? during the day yes, but after 7pm services operate direct from the bus station via Potteries Way, totally avoiding the development and it's potential passengers.

Centres of employment have changed, with distribution centres becoming a major employer in the area around Trentham Lakes. Literally thousands of people work along one lane, and First have ignored it. Granted, D&G have their hourly 14, but it is only of so much use due to D&G's limited further connections in the Potteries.

Stoke Council's public transport infrastructure is fairly terrible. The majority of stops live without timetables, let alone shelters or lighting. That said, there's nothing stopping First putting their own information out there, the council wouldn't stop them! A handful of stops now feature First-provided information, but this is typically in response to D&G putting theirs up on competitive corridors.

Personally I think the Potteries' biggest issue is it's geography. By the time the network has been cut back to a one-depot operation, there's no chance of creating a useful regional network. The success stories of the bus industry today are high-speed interurban routes, think CityZap, Falcon, Red Arrow etc. What remains of the interurban routes, the 3 and 101, First have no other services in the destination towns so unless the commuter works within walking distance of the bus station it's not economic to travel bus (integrated ticketing is non-existent). Stoke & the Potteries have found themselves marooned bus-wise, simply local routes carrying students and pensioners around in circles whilst the more lucrative commuter simply drives as the bus is of no use to them.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Regarding the 6/6A services you are talking about. (I catch the 6) it would be reasonable instead of a half hourly 6 to have a for example 6 on the hour and a 6a at half past. There are enough passengers for sandon road and meir park to justify this. But because the 6a run takes longer and couldnt be done with the current 2 bus set up they dont. Zero flexibility and imagination as you say.
First will be genuinely puzzled why weekly and monthly ticket sales are down following this set of changes. Most of the evening passengers in particular use these...no bus...no ticket sales. First dont grasp this though.

I don't like to mention the difference between the 6/6A in the evenings (6 only, two buses required) and Sundays (6 and 6A requiring three buses) because the obvious solution by First in The Potteries would not to be to enhance the evening service but to cut back the Sunday service, thereby saving one bus and all it's associated costs. The associated loss of revenue, due to no service, seems beyond their comprehension. They assume they have a totally captive market and that people will walk to Meir instead so there will be zero loss of revenue!

As for ticket sales, it depends on who they think is buying their season tickets. If your season ticket buyers travel traditional hours (students, shop workers, office workers) then providing an evening and Sunday service is simply a waste of money. You are incurring extra costs without attracting extra revenue. For decades I had a season ticket and would still have bought one even if no evening or Sunday service had been provided. I needed to get to work so I needed to buy a pass. Evening and Sunday travel was a bonus to me but a cost to them. Nowadays my travel is totally discretionary and much more evening service dependent. I may travel out in the daytime but only because I intend to return in the evening. The lack of an evening service means I can't come back in the evening so I don't go out during the daytime either. The result is not a change in my behaviour to travel out and back when they condescend to provide me with a service, rather I simply don't travel at all. Result - significant loss in revenue. In September I caught a whole of five buses, and two of those were to get to Stoke station on a Sunday morning because Blythe Bridge has no trains until mid-afternoon on a Sunday!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I don't think that's entirely true though I do understand why you may say that, and indeed other posters (whose points I'll also cover). It is fair to say that all the industry is hurting at the moment; I was enjoying a pint with a mate who DOESN'T work for First but for another transport group, north of the Watford Gap. They have recently had to wield the knife on their urban networks particularly - these are areas that are "classic bus territory" in the old parlance - places where you just had to send out a bus and make a small fortune.

Which is how the Potteries was until, say 2002 and The Overground and flat £1 fare failure. Massive queues at the bus station, extras for Christmas late night shopping and so on. Local management, long term local experience, in-tune with the market. Since then the golden goose has been milked dry (fare increases double the rate of inflation for a decade, deliberate short provision of the published timetable, complete lack of investment in new vehicles except to appease the TC in 2004/5).

However, that just isn't happening now and the reasons are many fold. Firstly, people visiting the high street for shopping - it's declined by 22% in 10 years ON AVERAGE - in certain towns, it is considerably higher. One little stat is that Burslem (traditionally one of the main centres for bus services) is the WORST in the country for empty shop units. 31.5% of shops in Burslem are empty - the national average is 12%! The market has closed, ffs! What did Stoke on Trent council do to increase footfall and attract punters back into Hanley - they reduced parking charges!

Burslem has been in decline for decades, certainly in all the time I have lived in Stoke. Failed regeneration initiative after failed regeneration initiative. A sticking plaster on a chainsaw cut. It is too close to both Tunstall and Hanley, before considering the impact of out-of-town retailing and now on-line retailing. Unfortunately there is always the complaint by Stokies "what about the other towns, why can Hanley have an M & S but not Burslem etc.).

Then you have the cutting of subsidies for evening services. Stoke Council have already done that; it has been mentioned on here that Staffs CC are now wielding the axe and I don't know if any of these cuts are a consequence of that. Whatever the case, many firms are left weighing up whether to run commercially (even at a loss in order to maintain network benefits) or not. The idea that Nigel Eggleton, a vastly experienced busman HASN'T done the sums, is frankly laughable. If it costs an extra £60 a night (and that's just marginal costs) to run til 2100/2130 and that is offset by an average net upside of £50 (either revenue gained or not lost), then they might do it. However, if the upside is £30 then think about it... £30 loss *6*52 - that's nearly £10k. Do that a few times and the figures get worrying!

Unfortunately, neither Stoke-on-Trent City Council nor Staffordshire County Council have a particularly good record on supporting public transport. Lots of well meaning strategies, lots of making the right noises, even some investment in capital projects - Kassel Kerbs at every stop but no buses to serve them! Go back to Deregulation when Staffordshire County Council shafted Midland Red by massively cutting subsidies six months before the operator could respond by cutting routes to match! Stoke was never a great provider of financial support to bus services, from 1997 when they became unitary, certainly compared to similar sized authorities, despite it being traditionally a labour voting area (60 out of 60 councillors, all Labour for many years).

Then you have the issue of the night-time economy. I've mentioned it before but the evening economy is not what it was, and that's for social reasons. All you have to do is look at the number of pubs that are now private residences, curry houses, nurseries, whatever. However we wish to look at it, society has changed and the night-time economy has changed markedly (perhaps excepting those areas with increasing student populations). I've recounted the example of a service in the North East - it was a service that was tendered on Mon to Wed nights but was busy on Thu to Sun esp. the 2300 departure on Fri/Sat, often being a nearly full single deck. However, once licensing hours were relaxed, it meant that you just couldn't cater for this now fragmented (and reducing) market - those journeys no longer exist.

Indeed, but we have a council wishing to become a 'capital of culture' and before that massive investment in a 'cultural quarter'. Presumably people who travel by bus do not appreciate 'culture'.

Then add in the issue of taxis and the delights of Uber, and during the day, traffic congestion often caused by a myriad of delivery vans from DHL and UPS et al now sending your Amazon parcels out so you don't have to go shopping in town. Not just First saying this - Brian Souter has talked at length on this.

Exactly, the other week I paid £2.95 extra on top of free 'whenever' delivery to get some walking shoes delivered - guaranteed am Saturday. It would have cost £4.00 bus fare and the best part of two hours sat on a bus to go up Hanley and buy them in person!

Now, have First made mistakes in the past? Of course, and I have little respect for Blockhead. Have they made them in recent years.... - I can think of some from my local subsidiary. The closure of Newcastle depot and then having to open an outbase later was clearly a cockup and doubtless there have been others. I don't know the operation so well (I did live on the other side of Staffordshire so it was more a case when passing through). My take on things is that the PMT operation was woefully managed for many years - peripheral from Manchester and surviving on minimal investment and cast offs. Mr Eggleton wanders in to discover a real basket case, the council cutting funds, poor quality and high costs, a collapsing market (and I take the point that First have damaged that in the past).

Indeed, but he hasn't sorted out the 'local attitude'. Earlier this week I was on some old bucket on the 6A (instead of my advertised new model with free Wi-Fi, leather seats etc). Plated capacity x plus wheelchair plus 17 standing, or 24 standing without wheelchair. We had a pram on and seven standing. The driver drove straight past several stops with expectant passengers. They won't be bus passengers for much longer if that happens too often. Since 'Overground' was introduced the allocators have been totally incapable of putting the correct buses on the relevant routes. They simply don't bother.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

What is regarded as HQ for First Potteries? Where is it administered from?

Nigel Eggleton is in charge of 'Midlands' which covers Worcester, Leicester and Potteries. How much time he spends on each I don't know.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I don't understand why the key routes in the densely populated Potteries conurbation aren't sustainable without subsidies - it's not a rural area. Why are First seemingly unable to get a grip on the situation?

That is what I don't understand - looking at the level of evening services provided in similar areas (non First areas) across the country. Perhaps those other areas are simply 'behind the curve' and have a Potteries style level of service to look forward to in the near future.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Hanley bus station is in the wrong place. The alleged plan was for it to be a catalyst for development in that quarter of the city, but 5 years on there's effectively only 1 and a half office blocks (Smithfield phase 1) to show for all the effort. Certainly, the commercial district which immediately surrounds the bus station has died a death - so much so the abandoned Hanley Shopping Precinct was used for a zombie film set (sadly not a joke - https://rocketthomerentals.com/blog/hollywood-comes-to-hanley ). At the same time, Intu Potteries has expanded their offering on the opposite end of the city centre, with 7 new restaurants, a cinema and new stores, increasing footfall.

The plan was for the new bus station to be part of a new retail development on the site of Hanley Shopping Precinct. The developer was all talk and no substance. Nice pictures, no money. Eventually the council got fed up with waiting and built the new bus station anyway. However, the site of the new bus station was only ever identified as a temporary home whilst the existing facility was redeveloped. The site was fully acknowledged as being inadequate in terms of capacity and access routes but operators would put up with it as a temporary measure. Then, at the behest of a certain chief executive and with senior council officers being unwilling to stick their necks out (quite reasonably in the poisonous atmosphere) the temporary site became the permanent site, with the obvious consequences: a cramped site, strange reversal arrangements, minimal layover, maximum 5 minutes on stand preventing realistic recover for late running etc. For so long I looked forward to an enclosed concourse on the new bus station (Hanley is on top of a hill and the wind blew straight through the old open concourse), and for a few months I could wait for my bus inside in relative warmth. Then they kicked us out and put my buses onto Lichfield Street with no shelters at first then only cantilevered shelters. Progress!

As for the Intu Potteries extension. The council did its best to prevent this happening, having signed an 'exclusivity agreement' with the developers of the Hanley Shopping Centre - opening in 2015 by the way. Even refusing to sell a plot of land to Intu which could have led to an even better Hive development.

Centres of employment have changed, with distribution centres becoming a major employer in the area around Trentham Lakes. Literally thousands of people work along one lane, and First have ignored it. Granted, D&G have their hourly 14, but it is only of so much use due to D&G's limited further connections in the Potteries.

The D & G service 14 is supported by one of the few subsidies still paid by Stoke-on-Trent Council for local bus services (developer Section 106 money). It operates at shift times, sort of, but as you say for most of the city Trentham Lakes might as well be on the moon. Then again look at Etruria Valley (Vodafone and Bet 365 large offices), streets for at least a mile around absolutely rammed with parked cars. If employers like that, in fairly central but not city central locations cannot (or will not) be served by buses, then there really is no future for bus services in Stoke.

 

[Robertj21a]

Nigel Eggleton is in charge of 'Midlands' which covers Worcester, Leicester and Potteries. How much time he spends on each I don't know.

I would guess that he spends a disproportionate amount of his time on Potteries issues as Worcester and Leicester always appear professional and well run.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I would guess that he spends a disproportionate amount of his time on Potteries issues as Worcester and Leicester always appear professional and well run.

My impression was the opposite, being regarded as 'absentee management' i.e. Worcester and Leicester appear professional and well run because he spends time on those! And why not? Concentrate your energies where they are appreciated, on areas that respond to good management rather than resents and reacts against it. Were anyone to buy First in the Potteries my advice would be to clear out all local management and bring your own in. At least pending training of local managers by sending them to other areas to learn what 'service' actually means.

Having had that moan, when I passed through Hanley yesterday I did notice how much smarter, and more uniform in livery, the buses looked, externally at least. The inside of the 32 was a collection of battered plastic held together by washers, floor covering split and patched and seat covering threadbare. Then again why bother with the internals given the quality of passenger on offer (myself excluded). The youth on the seat across has his feet on the seats opposite and casually extracts his plastic bag of cannabis and prepares some joints for later use!

 

[Robertj21a]

My impression was the opposite, being regarded as 'absentee management' i.e. Worcester and Leicester appear professional and well run because he spends time on those! And why not? Concentrate your energies where they are appreciated, on areas that respond to good management rather than resents and reacts against it. Were anyone to buy First in the Potteries my advice would be to clear out all local management and bring your own in. At least pending training of local managers by sending them to other areas to learn what 'service' actually means.

Having had that moan, when I passed through Hanley yesterday I did notice how much smarter, and more uniform in livery, the buses looked, externally at least. The inside of the 32 was a collection of battered plastic held together by washers, floor covering split and patched and seat covering threadbare. Then again why bother with the internals given the quality of passenger on offer (myself excluded). The youth on the seat across has his feet on the seats opposite and casually extracts his plastic bag of cannabis and prepares some joints for later use!

Is the guy in day to day charge at Stoke the one who previously ran the Wardles operation for Arriva ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

My impression was the opposite, being regarded as 'absentee management' i.e. Worcester and Leicester appear professional and well run because he spends time on those! And why not? Concentrate your energies where they are appreciated, on areas that respond to good management rather than resents and reacts against it. Were anyone to buy First in the Potteries my advice would be to clear out all local management and bring your own in. At least pending training of local managers by sending them to other areas to learn what 'service' actually means.

Having had that moan, when I passed through Hanley yesterday I did notice how much smarter, and more uniform in livery, the buses looked, externally at least. The inside of the 32 was a collection of battered plastic held together by washers, floor covering split and patched and seat covering threadbare. Then again why bother with the internals given the quality of passenger on offer (myself excluded). The youth on the seat across has his feet on the seats opposite and casually extracts his plastic bag of cannabis and prepares some joints for later use!

I don't know Nigel Eggleton but I know people who do. Suffice to say that your impression is incorrect - Potteries is undoubtedly the most challenging part of his empire and he apparently spends more time dealing with that than elsewhere.

If you're looking for parallels, try Teesside. I'd point you to Hartlepool (a Labour authority who withdrew all funding for bus services) and Redcar & East Cleveland (who subsidise very little). They are Stagecoach (with a bit of Go Ahead and Arriva) and Arriva areas respectively. Similar problems of retail collapse, social deprivation, loss of old established industries etc.

Hartlepool (pop 90k) has two local services, an hourly service north to Sunderland, and a bus every 30 mins on the mainline to Billingham, Stockton and Middlesbrough. Redcar (pop 35k) has just the main service to Eston and Middlesbrough and one other service that is part local, part direct Middlesbrough service. So yeah, think you are just catching up

 

[Typhoon]

I don't know Nigel Eggleton but I know people who do. Suffice to say that your impression is incorrect - Potteries is undoubtedly the most challenging part of his empire and he apparently spends more time dealing with that than elsewhere.

If you're looking for parallels, try Teesside. I'd point you to Hartlepool (a Labour authority who withdrew all funding for bus services) and Redcar & East Cleveland (who subsidise very little). They are Stagecoach (with a bit of Go Ahead and Arriva) and Arriva areas respectively. Similar problems of retail collapse, social deprivation, loss of old established industries etc.

Hartlepool (pop 90k) has two local services, an hourly service north to Sunderland, and a bus every 30 mins on the mainline to Billingham, Stockton and Middlesbrough. Redcar (pop 35k) has just the main service to Eston and Middlesbrough and one other service that is part local, part direct Middlesbrough service. So yeah, think you are just catching up

I think you are being a little unfair on Hartlepool! I should point out that I last visited Hartlepool over 40 years ago (for a wedding - not my own). However, I have looked at the websites of the three major providers and, assuming that their websites are approximately correct, they don't seem to be doing so badly.

Stagecoach does indeed provide two cross-town local services (6 & 7), which both operate every 10 minutes during the day, every 30 minutes in the evening and every 20 minutes on a Sunday (day), as well as a further cross-town local route (3/ 3A - minor variation) which operates half hourly during the day. The 'mainline' route (1) operates through the town to a suburb in the west of the town and there are short workings covering much of the route, including all of the section in Hartlepool, giving a 15 minute frequency (day time) and 30 minute frequency (Sunday day) across this section. There are no evening buses. There is an additional route to Middlesbrough (36) operating every 15 minutes during the day (30 minutes evening and Sunday). Between them these appear to cover most of the suburbs of the town, many on evenings and Sundays.

Go operate two limited stop routes - X5 (half-hourly, day time; hourly, Sunday day) and X6 (hourly, day time only) both operating to Sunderland.

Arriva offer three routes. The 24 (Sapphire) operates to Durham (half hourly day, hourly evening and Sunday), 57A also to Durham (hourly day) and 23 to Sunderland (every half hour day time only).

For a town on the coast surrounded by water to the north and east, there does seem to be an array of travel opportunities. There may be others, but, unfortunately, Connect Tees Valley which claims to be a 'one stop shop for travel information' does not appear to be particularly helpful.

Obviously, I am uncertain as to whether the timetabled buses run to time, whether they are often cancelled and what the quality of the buses are but I think there will be a number of towns which will view the timetabled provision jealously.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think you are being a little unfair on Hartlepool! I should point out that I last visited Hartlepool over 40 years ago (for a wedding - not my own). However, I have looked at the websites of the three major providers and, assuming that their websites are approximately correct, they don't seem to be doing so badly.

Stagecoach does indeed provide two cross-town local services (6 & 7), which both operate every 10 minutes during the day, every 30 minutes in the evening and every 20 minutes on a Sunday (day), as well as a further cross-town local route (3/ 3A - minor variation) which operates half hourly during the day. The 'mainline' route (1) operates through the town to a suburb in the west of the town and there are short workings covering much of the route, including all of the section in Hartlepool, giving a 15 minute frequency (day time) and 30 minute frequency (Sunday day) across this section. There are no evening buses. There is an additional route to Middlesbrough (36) operating every 15 minutes during the day (30 minutes evening and Sunday). Between them these appear to cover most of the suburbs of the town, many on evenings and Sundays.

Go operate two limited stop routes - X5 (half-hourly, day time; hourly, Sunday day) and X6 (hourly, day time only) both operating to Sunderland.

Arriva offer three routes. The 24 (Sapphire) operates to Durham (half hourly day, hourly evening and Sunday), 57A also to Durham (hourly day) and 23 to Sunderland (every half hour day time only).

For a town on the coast surrounded by water to the north and east, there does seem to be an array of travel opportunities. There may be others, but, unfortunately, Connect Tees Valley which claims to be a 'one stop shop for travel information' does not appear to be particularly helpful.

Obviously, I am uncertain as to whether the timetabled buses run to time, whether they are often cancelled and what the quality of the buses are but I think there will be a number of towns which will view the timetabled provision jealously.

Erm....was referring to evening services as that’s what’s being withdrawn!

In fact, having had a bit of time to research, I can even add a little onto the comparison.... The Teesside conurbation is larger at 460k inhabitants vs 370k in the Potteries. However, the decline in traditional industries in "our own rust belt" in very similar.

The decline in bus service provision in the evenings is stark, as I stated and that is being replicated as local authorities in Stoke/Staff pull funding and the night-time economy has faded - why go to the pub (and not smoke) when you can drink at home for a fraction of the price!

However, if we're talking daytimes, well the comparison still stands. When Stagecoach bought Hartlepool, they ran 63 buses. Tees & District (forerunner to Arriva) also maintained a small depot of c.25 vehicles though, to be fair, most operated on out of town services and you can argue the local work they did operate was a duplication so we can exclude much of that. Today, Stagecoach have 30 vehicles in the town though.

Moving round the corner and into the main conurbation (as Hartlepool is a place apart) and, it too, reflects the experience of the Potteries with service revisions and cuts from both major operators. Where in 1996, there were six depots serving the area, there are now just three and, were it not for two operators being involved, there would be fewer.

The real difference has been the investment in new vehicles. Now, had you have gone to the area in 2007, you'd have seen two fleets not dissimilar to First Potteries - lack of investment, lack of quality, plenty of step floors and a lot of early low floor stuff with only penny numbers of vehicles less than 5 years old. That has changed as Arriva and later Stagecoach have improved things (though if you've travelled on a Temsa Avenue, the word improvement may ring hollow).

The point is that Arriva and Stagecoach were in a position to invest. First aren't because of the idiocy of the Blockhead era. You'd get the feeling that First Potteries are going to have to survive on some cascades etc rather than anything better to improve the fleet - perhaps some newer deckers for the Keele service, or late model B7RLEs for the Stafford run - around the five year mark.

Don't get me wrong, these are dark days in the bus industry and First have made mistakes recently and fundamentally in the past (see posts ad nauseum) but the macro-economic effects of the economy and government spending are what is really driving the shape of the UK bus industry.....and it always will!

 

[James101]

Erm....was referring to evening services as that’s what’s being withdrawn!

In fact, having had a bit of time to research, I can even add a little onto the comparison.... The Teesside conurbation is larger at 460k inhabitants vs 370k in the Potteries. However, the decline in traditional industries in "our own rust belt" in very similar.

The decline in bus service provision in the evenings is stark, as I stated and that is being replicated as local authorities in Stoke/Staff pull funding and the night-time economy has faded - why go to the pub (and not smoke) when you can drink at home for a fraction of the price!

However, if we're talking daytimes, well the comparison still stands. When Stagecoach bought Hartlepool, they ran 63 buses. Tees & District (forerunner to Arriva) also maintained a small depot of c.25 vehicles though, to be fair, most operated on out of town services and you can argue the local work they did operate was a duplication so we can exclude much of that. Today, Stagecoach have 30 vehicles in the town though.

Moving round the corner and into the main conurbation (as Hartlepool is a place apart) and, it too, reflects the experience of the Potteries with service revisions and cuts from both major operators. Where in 1996, there were six depots serving the area, there are now just three and, were it not for two operators being involved, there would be fewer.

The real difference has been the investment in new vehicles. Now, had you have gone to the area in 2007, you'd have seen two fleets not dissimilar to First Potteries - lack of investment, lack of quality, plenty of step floors and a lot of early low floor stuff with only penny numbers of vehicles less than 5 years old. That has changed as Arriva and later Stagecoach have improved things (though if you've travelled on a Temsa Avenue, the word improvement may ring hollow).

The point is that Arriva and Stagecoach were in a position to invest. First aren't because of the idiocy of the Blockhead era. You'd get the feeling that First Potteries are going to have to survive on some cascades etc rather than anything better to improve the fleet - perhaps some newer deckers for the Keele service, or late model B7RLEs for the Stafford run - around the five year mark.

Don't get me wrong, these are dark days in the bus industry and First have made mistakes recently and fundamentally in the past (see posts ad nauseum) but the macro-economic effects of the economy and government spending are what is really driving the shape of the UK bus industry.....and it always will!

I think you're trying to form a parallel that just isn't there between Potteries & Teesside, perhaps except the decline of industry. As it happens, I grew up in Hartlepool, where my family still live, and I now live in Stoke-on-Trent - so I feel fairly well qualified to comment.

Granted, since 2010 there has been an evening service reduction. However Hartlepool's most recent service changes seen the Stagecoach services expanded from weekend only to 7 day operation. When was the last time Potteries actually expanded a service? The seaside resort of Seaton Carew is now the only area of note without an evening service, though the village does have a train service to Hartlepool and the wider region until 22:07. I agree both SOT and Hartlepool local authority have been ruthless in their lack of support for local bus services, but where Potteries have simply abandoned all hope, Stagecoach and Arriva are at least giving it a go. In general, the areas of Hartlepool left with no service after council money was withdrawn(Elwick, Dalton Piercy, West Park, Thornhill Gardens, Burbank), have had a limited stagecarriage service re-instated by local minibus operator Pauls Travel on a not-for-profit basis. Similarly, much to the council's shame, Paul's also operate the towns Dial-a-ride privately and not-for-profit.

It's worth noting where the population's social habits have moved away from the pub, we've moved more towards the shops. As such, Tessside has had new service provision to Teesside Shopping Park, Dalton Park and Newcastle. I don't recall any comparable provision by First in the Potteries, other than First's short lived venture to Trentham Gardens - soon to be revived by D&G on Sundays

Similarly, Go North East have recently expanded their X5 timetable to give Hartlepool a Sunday service on this route, the first daytime Go North East venture in the town in decades. The service is operated by recently refurbished Mercedes Citaros featuring e-Leater, wifi, USB charging etc. Buses of such spec are not unusual in Teesside, given Arriva have various 'Sapphire' & 'MAX' branded routes around the region, including Hartlepool. Stagecoach even have wifi on their 'Zone' group of services and operate their new (look! more new service provision) shopper express X55 with a full size coach (B12B Panther).

Almost the entire service fleet was purchased in one go, being fairly unusual 58 plate enviro bodied MAN A66s. Fleet age isn't great, isn't terrible, but the fleet is generally clean and well maintained. First Potteries' average fleet age is heavily skewed by the handful of 2013/4 Streetlites & last year's E200s. In reality, passengers are likely to be carried on almost life expired E300s or almost certainly life expired Caetano Darts - I don't think even Caetano intended for their handy work to be hammering the tarmac 15 years later. The 'best' Potters can expect is a aprox. 13 year old Scania or Volvo, of which there is a mixed bag from reasonably pleasant to outright terrible from a passenger point of few. You mention 2007, when the Stagecoach fleet was mainly B10Ms supported by ALX300s & Darts on premium routes - I'd suggest this would be an acceptable standard of service. 2007 as it happens, was when GNE had their 'big bang' of route branding, vastly improving their appearance and investing heavily in, at the time, ground-breaking Citaros and Omnicities (Though their Teesside presence had long since been operated by striking Geminis - since replaced with B5TLs & service effectively doubled in frequency). The poor relation at the time was Arriva, who did in 2007 have a pretty poor fleet - Hartlepool services being operated by a rag-tag selection on Metroriders, Olympians & Deltas. However, 2008 saw over 50 Optare Solos improve quailty of output, which has since been improved again to date where Arrivas 'worst' buses (Omnicities) are the same as Potteries 'best'!

Combined with integrated ticketing (EasyRider), contactless payments, streamlined information provision (I.E. uniform bus stop displays from Connect Tees Valley) and actually a fairy decent operational fleet, I think I'd be better off catching the bus in Teesside than in the Potteries!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think you're trying to form a parallel that just isn't there between Potteries & Teesside, perhaps except the decline of industry. As it happens, I grew up in Hartlepool, where my family still live, and I now live in Stoke-on-Trent - so I feel fairly well qualified to comment.

Granted, since 2010 there has been an evening service reduction. However Hartlepool's most recent service changes seen the Stagecoach services expanded from weekend only to 7 day operation. When was the last time Potteries actually expanded a service? The seaside resort of Seaton Carew is now the only area of note without an evening service, though the village does have a train service to Hartlepool and the wider region until 22:07. I agree both SOT and Hartlepool local authority have been ruthless in their lack of support for local bus services, but where Potteries have simply abandoned all hope, Stagecoach and Arriva are at least giving it a go. In general, the areas of Hartlepool left with no service after council money was withdrawn(Elwick, Dalton Piercy, West Park, Thornhill Gardens, Burbank), have had a limited stagecarriage service re-instated by local minibus operator Pauls Travel on a not-for-profit basis. Similarly, much to the council's shame, Paul's also operate the towns Dial-a-ride privately and not-for-profit.

It's worth noting where the population's social habits have moved away from the pub, we've moved more towards the shops. As such, Tessside has had new service provision to Teesside Shopping Park, Dalton Park and Newcastle. I don't recall any comparable provision by First in the Potteries, other than First's short lived venture to Trentham Gardens - soon to be revived by D&G on Sundays

Similarly, Go North East have recently expanded their X5 timetable to give Hartlepool a Sunday service on this route, the first daytime Go North East venture in the town in decades. The service is operated by recently refurbished Mercedes Citaros featuring e-Leater, wifi, USB charging etc. Buses of such spec are not unusual in Teesside, given Arriva have various 'Sapphire' & 'MAX' branded routes around the region, including Hartlepool. Stagecoach even have wifi on their 'Zone' group of services and operate their new (look! more new service provision) shopper express X55 with a full size coach (B12B Panther).

Almost the entire service fleet was purchased in one go, being fairly unusual 58 plate enviro bodied MAN A66s. Fleet age isn't great, isn't terrible, but the fleet is generally clean and well maintained. First Potteries' average fleet age is heavily skewed by the handful of 2013/4 Streetlites & last year's E200s. In reality, passengers are likely to be carried on almost life expired E300s or almost certainly life expired Caetano Darts - I don't think even Caetano intended for their handy work to be hammering the tarmac 15 years later. The 'best' Potters can expect is a aprox. 13 year old Scania or Volvo, of which there is a mixed bag from reasonably pleasant to outright terrible from a passenger point of few. You mention 2007, when the Stagecoach fleet was mainly B10Ms supported by ALX300s & Darts on premium routes - I'd suggest this would be an acceptable standard of service. 2007 as it happens, was when GNE had their 'big bang' of route branding, vastly improving their appearance and investing heavily in, at the time, ground-breaking Citaros and Omnicities (Though their Teesside presence had long since been operated by striking Geminis - since replaced with B5TLs & service effectively doubled in frequency). The poor relation at the time was Arriva, who did in 2007 have a pretty poor fleet - Hartlepool services being operated by a rag-tag selection on Metroriders, Olympians & Deltas. However, 2008 saw over 50 Optare Solos improve quailty of output, which has since been improved again to date where Arrivas 'worst' buses (Omnicities) are the same as Potteries 'best'!

Combined with integrated ticketing (EasyRider), contactless payments, streamlined information provision (I.E. uniform bus stop displays from Connect Tees Valley) and actually a fairy decent operational fleet, I think I'd be better off catching the bus in Teesside than in the Potteries!

I think I have drawn a reasonable parallel - there are a lot of similarities in Teesside vs. Potteries.. I accept that there are some differences that I highlighted. There are always some differences anyway and there are significant ones in having two operators rather a dominant one, and the mismanagement of First and failure to invest over many years. Also, please don't think that I'm not speaking from experience. I too am an emigre of the North East, moved to Staffs in 2000.... just that I've moved again since.

However, I think you're misconstruing my comments - my point is that the Teesside fleets ARE much better and that is despite a low point of 2007 when the Teesside fleets would have been dominated by B10Ms (13 year old) for Stagecoach with some newer fleet such as ALX300s that were c.10 years old; Arriva had a raft of older fleet including knackered Metroriders and Vectas with even the newer vehicles being shocking Daf/Plaxton Prestiges. The difference is that the Teesside fleets (I exclude GNE as they are minimal) are much newer but that is a reflection on the mess that First got themselves in - overpaying for operators (Cawlett) rather than investing in new fleet and then the Laidlaw cock up. They never invested and later couldn't invest as they might.

The axing of local authority funding means that decisions have to be made. As you rightly say, the growth of Sunday trading is counteracted by the collapse in the evening trade and that may be why the cuts being seen now are disproportionately aimed at Sundays. In Teesside, Stockton and Middlesbrough do still provide some support; the other two LAs have all but ceased and hence why there are relatively few services and they are commercial. Hartlepool is a town of nearly 100k people - it gets two town services at night, one bus an hour north, and two an hour south to the main conurbation. Redcar and East Cleveland is 135k - it has three routes running at night! Whole tracts of territory don't see a bus after 6.30.

Doesn't that sound like the new world of Potteries evening bus provision?

 

[Typhoon]

Erm....was referring to evening services as that’s what’s being withdrawn!

In fact, having had a bit of time to research, I can even add a little onto the comparison.... The Teesside conurbation is larger at 460k inhabitants vs 370k in the Potteries. However, the decline in traditional industries in "our own rust belt" in very similar.

The decline in bus service provision in the evenings is stark, as I stated and that is being replicated as local authorities in Stoke/Staff pull funding and the night-time economy has faded - why go to the pub (and not smoke) when you can drink at home for a fraction of the price!

However, if we're talking daytimes, well the comparison still stands. When Stagecoach bought Hartlepool, they ran 63 buses. Tees & District (forerunner to Arriva) also maintained a small depot of c.25 vehicles though, to be fair, most operated on out of town services and you can argue the local work they did operate was a duplication so we can exclude much of that. Today, Stagecoach have 30 vehicles in the town though.

Moving round the corner and into the main conurbation (as Hartlepool is a place apart) and, it too, reflects the experience of the Potteries with service revisions and cuts from both major operators. Where in 1996, there were six depots serving the area, there are now just three and, were it not for two operators being involved, there would be fewer.

The real difference has been the investment in new vehicles. Now, had you have gone to the area in 2007, you'd have seen two fleets not dissimilar to First Potteries - lack of investment, lack of quality, plenty of step floors and a lot of early low floor stuff with only penny numbers of vehicles less than 5 years old. That has changed as Arriva and later Stagecoach have improved things (though if you've travelled on a Temsa Avenue, the word improvement may ring hollow).

The point is that Arriva and Stagecoach were in a position to invest. First aren't because of the idiocy of the Blockhead era. You'd get the feeling that First Potteries are going to have to survive on some cascades etc rather than anything better to improve the fleet - perhaps some newer deckers for the Keele service, or late model B7RLEs for the Stafford run - around the five year mark.

Don't get me wrong, these are dark days in the bus industry and First have made mistakes recently and fundamentally in the past (see posts ad nauseum) but the macro-economic effects of the economy and government spending are what is really driving the shape of the UK bus industry.....and it always will!

I have no doubt that there are problems with adjacent areas. In fact, I think this might be part of the reason why some of the bus routes are not more frequent. I have had a brief look at some services in Teesside and frequent services during the day becoming hourly in the evening seems to be the order of the day.

As regards the evening provision in Hartlepool, we might have to agree to differ on this but I would say that a half hourly frequency for a town service is not bad and three of the five Stagecoach services offer that (and appear to compare well with similar size towns, including the above mentioned Worcester). The 3/ 3A runs close to other routes for much (but admittedly not all of its route). The 1 is the route that misses out - perhaps partly because it enters Teesside. As far as Hartlepool is concerned it serves the 'small seaside resort' of Seaton Carew (population just over 6,000) by way of largely industrial areas then through more industrial areas and open fields before reaching Middlesbrough. Not really prime bus territory for evening travel. Seaton Carew also has a station (hourly evening train). At its other end it heads west to the West Park area, and this does seem to be poorly served. The Arriva evening service travels north close to areas served by the local Stagecoach routes (including the 3/3A). All of the Arriva services are interurban and quickly leave the Hartlepool area so I don't suppose the local council has any interest in subsidising bus travel on these routes (especially as there is a reasonable rail service from Sunderland and Middlesbrough, although last trains before 22:00 seem to be a bit mean).

Looking at the fleet list for the area, it does seem like Hartlepool appears to be near the end of queue when it comes to allocating new buses but that is probably because larger operators appear to prioritise larger (probably more profitable) conurbations so Tyneside seems to head the queue. However, my point was about bus frequency which I still think isn't bad. I suppose I just wanted to stick up for Hartlepool, which appears to always get a bad press. The final points on the bus industry are well made, I (too?) believe we are entering into a public transport winter, and a harsh one at that.

 

[cactustwirly]

Nigel Eggleton is in charge of 'Midlands' which covers Worcester, Leicester and Potteries. How much time he spends on each I don't know.

Which is based in Chelmsford. The buses in Leicester look quite full, and the routes are pretty comprehensive (some of the buses could so with an internal refurb though).
So I don't think the problems are caused by the current management.