psmith2023
Member
A single decker electric is on the 63 this morning wonder if it will last the full day with no issues
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Stagecoach Yorkshire and Chesterfield
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TR673
Member
I don't know if anyone else has picked this up, but I was reading through the Peak Sightseer web page and hidden amongst the Q&A text at the bottom it mentioned Peak Sightseer tickets are valid and can be bought on the 170. This will be useful for people travelling from Chesterfield to use the Sightseer services.
www.stagecoachbus.com
Peak Sightseer
Sit back and enjoy the scenery from a grandstand view as our open top bus takes you to some of the Peak District National Park’s most popular destinations.
www.stagecoachbus.com
It looks like a Peak Sightseer ticket is basically a Dayrider Gold with an upgrade to cover the open top buses, so it's valid on all Stagecoach Yorkshire services, not just the 170.
What differs from last year is this upgrade - previously a Dayrider Gold was enough to use the open top buses, now they are charging an extra £1.50 on top. In some ways this makes it less attractive if you can only buy the special tickets on the PS or the 170 as previously you could have just used the normal Dayrider Gold to connect in with the feeder buses, although it is an improvement for Chesterfield as previously there were only a handful of feeder buses in the morning.
The routes don't appear to be any different this year which is a shame, I was hoping for further expansion.
Some service changes have gone in at Stagecoach Yorkshire / Chesterfield depot.
Does anyone have any indication what these will be? Some are showing changes to start and / or terminus points, including the 2, 16 and 25, plus a new service 3 is mentioned.
Most of the rest are just timing changes, although the Sunday 77 will now be operated by East Midlands only.
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swinny1990
Member
Gold decker 11118-11120 have transferred to stagecoach Cumbria
psmith2023
Member
Stagecoach running extra trips on x17 more buses out then normal 4 more then normal is it just to try and keep to time due to Matlock being Like car park
Llandudno
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Hopefully there are lots of extra passengers heading out to Matlock and the relatively new extension to Matlock Bath, Cromford and Wirksworth given the fabulous weather!
Not to forget the diversion of some journeys via the excellent Matlock Farm Park!
psmith2023
Member
Stagecoach need to make wirksworth runs every half hour Saturdays and hourly not enough Sundays needs to be half hour Inbeteween 11am and 5pm
Easter Holidays and weather couldnt have timed more perfect! X17 has been very well loaded all week from Chesterfield towards Matlock. I've not observed the 170 today but there also wasnt a spare seat on the double deckers from mid morning to early afternoon yesterday.
The problem you have here is that if it had tipped it down with rain last week, the same buses that have been really busy would have carted less than half the passengers otherwise. Having said that though you cant deny how successful the X17 is and continues to become
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psmith2023
Member
Suprized stagecoach has tryed a pronto express type of service on Saturdays and school holidays service to Matlock from Sutton or Mansfield via chesterfield as it would work as it's the right type area run it express from Mansfield then towards chesterfield then to wirksworth
Llandudno
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The X17 is a very good service and will be further enhanced by the introduction of the electric double deckers which seem to fly up Slack Hill to Matlock!
Some minor improvements would make the X17 a superb service:
The current every 2 hours service to Matlock of an evening to become hourly and link up to the hourly Chesterfield-Sheffield section.
Earlier first bus on a Saturday, it’s currently 0811 from Matlock arriving Sheffield 0929 compared to 0604 on Mondays to Fridays.
Later last bus on a Sunday, currently 1737 from Sheffield, 1825 from Chesterfield to Matlock
psmith2023
Member
For Matlock lights there needs to be a later last bus on a Sunday as the lights stay on till at least 8pm
Via Chesterfield doesn't make much sense - you might as well just connect in with the X17.
Extending one Pronto via Sutton, Alfreton, Swanwich, Ambergate, Cromford and Matlock Bath might be an idea however. Fills in some gaps without duplicating too much.
This is my fear, that out of season Stagecoach will drop the frequency because they are only really interested in the tourist traffic on this route. Serving the smaller communities with the bonus of the summer traffic worked for Hulleys, the way the Stagecoach service is structured doesn't really support the year-round traffic Hulleys had.
I'm surprised they haven't done something about the Saturday service though, there are so many potential pinch-points along the route that it often suffers significant delays. I've not noticed in the past any extra vehicles being added on so it's good if they are starting to do that, but I still believe the route is just too long to run reliably. The 'core' Sheffield to Chesterfield could also easily support a 20 minute frequency, allowing it to be split in to three:
Barnsley to Chesterfield
Meadowhall to Matlock
Sheffield to Wirksworth
Sundays could also support 2x hourly on the Chesterfield to Meadowhall section, so again Barnsley to Chesterfield and Meadowhall to Wirksworth should be possible
While it's an emergency tender, I wonder if there is also scope to alter the 63 so it is what serves Matlock Farm Park and run it hourly Saturdays and Holidays.
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mk1979
Member
You couldn't be more wrong.
I have literally no idea what you mean with the second half of your sentence. On the first part of your sentence, the fact that Hulley's closed abruptly and their published accounts show significant losses suggest that their network didn't work for them otherwise they would still be in business.
Bakewell is the largest conurbation in the National Park, Chesterfield is the most significant destination for people in Bakewell plus Chesterfield rail station is a natural hub for onward journeys. Add to the fact that Chesterfield rail station is increasingly seen as the gateway to the Peak District for visitors arriving by rail and a direct link between Bakewell and Chesterfield is more attractive to users than diversions via villages that cost an extra bus in the cycle but don't generate enough traffic to justify that extra resource and to replace the customers put off by the lack of direct connections. We've done our research on this.
From a very low start the 170 is improving on a daily basis. It needs a lot of TLC to restore customer confidence and to maximise their opportunity but work is already afoot. Same goes for 63 and 84.
I hope time proves that correct. However, out of season usage of the 170 was low, I'd say lower than the local services around Walton and Brampton that were culled in recent years for example. Hulleys as a lower cost operator were more able to sustain that low usage. If you are happy to offset losses in the low season with good usage in high season then that's great.
Maybe you know more about they closed, what I've gathered and been told is that it's not really linked to their core network, more certain adventures and miscalculations.
I don't disagree there, indeed I'd suggest that in summer there might even be market for a direct Chesterfield to Bakewell bus that bypasses Chatsworth in addition to the 170. Extending the 170 to Buxton in the holidays also seems a good option, to link with trains on to Manchester.
The 84/170 combo wasn't a good one. Maybe for the evening and maybe the odd peak service to provide more journey options than the 84 alone. My main concern was the way Holymoorside was left without a service at all for an extended period, and what they've got is poor. I'm not blaming Stagecoach at all for the latter, what DCC asked for wasn't sensible and what you've provided works as a short-term compromise, but I really hope efforts are put in to finding something more workable. I'd also hope something can be done to restore an evening service, even if it's just something like extending the 91 through to Holymoorside and the 90b up Chatsworth Road to Morrisons or even Storrs Road. DCC seemed able to find BSIP money for Hulleys on the 170 and 55, so I'd hope it's also available to yourselves, just needs time to negotiate the fine details.
I can't help but think there is scope to revise the 38 for example and break off the Brampton half of the working. Merge this with the 84 to give a combined half-hourly service on Chatsworth Road with the 170, and an hourly both-way service through Brampton. Maybe even take on the Old Brampton section of the 48 so it can be restored to a more clockface timetable.
Llandudno
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Great to hear that the Stagecoach 170 is steadily building patronage from Chesterfield rail station to Chatsworth and Bakewell.
Is their any potential in offering through rail/bus tickets to Chatsworth and Bakewell and offering connections and ticketing on rail journey planners and booking engines, similar to some of the new initiatives offered in Wales with their TrawsBus services?
mk1979
Member
You said "they are only really interested in the tourist traffic on this route. " - you are just making stuff up with statements like that hence you could not be more wrong. Time doesn't need to prove anything!
The base traffic of locals using the 170 was low because it had become chronically unreliable for at least 18 months plus the constant tinkering with timetables and routes. What the route needs is a sustained period of reliable operation to build back trust. The numbers and the annecdotal feedback so far says we're achieving just that. As I said in my last post, we've done our research and have a good handle on what the base demand should be.
All of those impacted the core network one way or another.
Two service changes a year - April and Autumn. We're busy working on final implementation of the April changes now, not looked at Autumn yet.
All I'll say is hold that thought! We had a very productive meeting with Cross Country Trains earlier in the week who've already produced the following page on their website:
Trains to the Peak District | CrossCountry
It’s easy to experience the best of the British countryside by rail, so book your train to the Peak District now.
www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk
And we've got plenty more ideas in relation to bus/rail integrations including what you've suggested above.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Stagecoach has announced several changes for their South Yorkshire & Derbyshire network from 26 April:
I'll admit I maybe overstated things - and I do have a habit of not communicating as clearly as I mean. To be honest, I suspect also you've made your mind up about me and it's really not worth me engaging. Hopefully I'm also wrong about that.
Four things that made me make that statement however. Firstly, dropping Holymoorside until DCC came along with a tender. Until the recent 'panic attempt to recover' timetable change that Hulleys made, the 170 and 84 worked well together and were popular. You could have tried replicating that on a commercial basis. (Note as mentioned before I'm not in any way criticising Stagecoach for the current 84 timetable). Second is breaking the link with the hospital which is quite important to many. Yes, you can change buses but that just adds to the cost for many. Thirdly, the considerably hike in fares. Hulleys day ticket was something like £6.40, your ticket to cover the full 170 route is £10.50. I really think that due to the recent expansion in to Derbyshire it would be good to consider a Chesterfield-centered ticket which extends to Matlock and Bakewell. And lastly, the lack of any evening service. This means there is no bus link up Chatsworth road after 5:30 - even if you didn't want to run to Bakewell, surely the odd trip up to Storrs Road would be possible?
That shows an interesting contrast between Stagecoach and Hulleys. The latter were far too fast to change things, while you seem happy to let opportunities pass as they don't fit in with a rigid timetable change regime.
Sort of related to this, but prior to you joining Stagecoach Yorkshire it was common to consult passengers when changes were proposed and occasionally things were altered based on that feedback. There now seems to be no engagement with (potential) passengers - do you not feel there is a benefit in doing this? (Or have I just missed any engagement - in which case I'd ask the question how effective it is)
Hulleys ran out of money and went bust of course!
I doubt planning for two changes date a year prevents minor changes to/for anything that crops up in the meantime.
As I commented above, more due to other factors. Also consider the Stagecoach Silver day tickets - which cover a very significant area - are only 10p more expensive than the Hulleys ticket was.
The point you seem to have missed though is that the Stagecoach tickets are all centred on Sheffield and the boundary to move up from Silver to Gold is just outside Chesterfield. When there is a large network centred on Chesterfield it seems wrong to not have a ticket centred on Chesterfield also. And before anyone mentions the Derbyshire Wayfarer, consider that it doesn't allow trips within Sheffield (only to the centre) so no use if you say live in Matlock and work at the Uni in Sheffield.
Mr Manager
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Midland General/Trent used to do a Mansfield-Sutton-Alfreton-Matlock service. Needed dupes from Alfreton During Easter. Most i saw was 3 dupes. All with full loads. Plus the service car with a full swinging load.
Llandudno
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Great to hear that you have had positive discussions with XC trains especially as XC are at last reinstating their hourly calls at Chesterfield on the Plymouth/Birmingham/Chesterfield/Edinburgh axis.You said "they are only really interested in the tourist traffic on this route. " - you are just making stuff up with statements like that hence you could not be more wrong. Time doesn't need to prove anything!
The base traffic of locals using the 170 was low because it had become chronically unreliable for at least 18 months plus the constant tinkering with timetables and routes. What the route needs is a sustained period of reliable operation to build back trust. The numbers and the annecdotal feedback so far says we're achieving just that. As I said in my last post, we've done our research and have a good handle on what the base demand should be.
All of those impacted the core network one way or another.
Two service changes a year - April and Autumn. We're busy working on final implementation of the April changes now, not looked at Autumn yet.
All I'll say is hold that thought! We had a very productive meeting with Cross Country Trains earlier in the week who've already produced the following page on their website:
Trains to the Peak District | CrossCountry
It’s easy to experience the best of the British countryside by rail, so book your train to the Peak District now.
And we've got plenty more ideas in relation to bus/rail integrations including what you've suggested above.
Are there any plans to include EMR and Northern in the discussions?
Stagecoach has announced several changes for their South Yorkshire & Derbyshire network from 26 April:
The service changes are interesting:
The 38 is the same route as Globe 39 to Shafton then same as 28 to Pontefract
The 59/59a frequency increase to every 30 minutes through to Wakefield is very welcome
The X19 increase is welcome as well, on most days journeys are now mostly run by deckers especially since the 218 was changed to reduce the frequency from Mexborough to Barnsley which leaves a 30 minute gap in between the 219/X19 leaving Barnsley causing a large amount of passengers
The X17 one change I have noticed the 5:10pm from Matlock that currently changes bus at Chesterfield to run to Chesterfield won’t have that change bus to Sheffield & will finish at Chesterfield leaving the 5:35pm from Matlock to pick up these passengers
mk1979
Member
Remember we have many years experience of providing a bus link to Holymoorside, its not commercially viable.
That requires additional buses to be provided commercially, see my comment above re: Holymoorside and see my previous comments about we've done our research on the Bakewell corridor and have a good idea on expected demand.
Everyone wants a direct link to the hospital *just incase*. Most people don't go to hospital on a regular basis to justify direct links from everywhere. Ask yourself, how often does the average person go to hospital and when they do is the bus going to be the most convenient option? Yes people can change in Chesterfield onto an already frequent service to the hospital, a corridor that became more frequent in last October's change going from 3 to 4 an hour on the 1's and 2's.
I'd refer you to the comment made by another poster on this subject. There is the dichotomy of people want simple ticketing and people want choice in ticketing, we've simplified a lot of the ticket range in recent years based on the later ask.
I understand Hulleys received BSIP funding for the 170 rail station extension, some evening and Sunday trips. We're doing the rail extension and Sunday daytime commercially. We've spoken to DCC about the evening journeys.
There are up to five service change dates a year in Derbyshire as agreed under the Enhanced Partnership. Most operators stuck to those five. In South Yorkshire it's limited to two per year (although there's been more in recent years to suit SYMCA). Two changes per year work well, it gives customers and colleagues (particularly drivers rotas) certainty.
We consult on major service changes as we did in October 2024 and received hundreds of comments from customers. Some of the April changes are as a consequence of that consultation and comments made subsequently. What we cannot do is add in additional resource because one person comments they think it is a good idea. We use a lot of data in the background to validate network decisions including most recently using aggregated mobile phone data to understand where travel demand really is, not just based on trips currently made by bus or ten year old census data.
Yes, EMR as operator of Chesterfield station will be involved. I'm sure Northern will be engaged at some point too. A lot seems to depend on resource and structure within the TOC's but we're starting to see a more joined up railway on stuff like this, which is positive.
psmith2023
Member
What about getting a X17 towards Matlock at chesterfield station hourly you would get more passagners as the connection would be better as not ever one can walk to the centre to catch it
mk1979
Member
Matlock has a railway station so demand for people to catch a bus from Chesterfield railway station is minimal. Would only benefit those coming from the north wishing to travel to Matlock and to be honest probably little/no time benefit that travelling via Derby on the train.
D365
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As somebody with a pipe dream of moving to the Peak District… a consistent and dependable 170 with through ticketing onto the Midland Main Line is exactly what I have been waiting to hear!
psmith2023
Member
No worries thank you for taking the time to reply I travel from Leeds used to live in Sutton as when I went to Matlock at weekends used to be a 3 hour each way bus to derby 1 hour and a half and by the time you waited at derby for a bus it was the same didn't go as much as it took too long mk1979 x17 full route is ideal for a full weekend but for a day it's not that worth it as your can only get 4 hours if if that
@mk1979 I dont think this has anything to do with Stagecoach but I am not sure who to direct this comment to so could you please feedback to whomever.
Last Thursday there was a new electric Stagecoach bus displayed in the Market Place in Chesterfield Town Centre with staff promoting and taking comments re bus travel, which hopefully attracted a fair few people as town was ridicously really busy even by Thursday standards.
The problem was the leaflets being handed out were totally out of date, they still promote Hulleys services!! When I mentioned that to the person talking me through the leaflet they said they were aware but they are waiting for new leaflets to be published, surely these leaflets shouldnt be handed out? If there was one person tempted to try bus travel for the first time based on the info given they would have soon been disappointed
Last Thursday there was a new electric Stagecoach bus displayed in the Market Place in Chesterfield Town Centre with staff promoting and taking comments re bus travel, which hopefully attracted a fair few people as town was ridicously really busy even by Thursday standards.
The problem was the leaflets being handed out were totally out of date, they still promote Hulleys services!! When I mentioned that to the person talking me through the leaflet they said they were aware but they are waiting for new leaflets to be published, surely these leaflets shouldnt be handed out? If there was one person tempted to try bus travel for the first time based on the info given they would have soon been disappointed