Standard 9F no. 92219 off to the Highlands

[D Williams]

Apparently there are a lot of parts already available with the locomotive and so it might not take too many years to get it back into service.

This presupposes that there will be coal to burn and that such an environmentally unfriendly action will be permitted in the new "green" Scotland.

 

[Alanko]

25244 will be the next 45015 in terms of "virtually impossible" restorations ahead of a number of locos...

I think there are a few Sulzer type 2s that have done very little in preservation that could fall into this camp.

Conversely I'm enjoying watching the progress on 26010 on Facebook. Heartening to see it come back to life.

 

[alexl92]

The 37 was an orphan from the Wensleydale Line I think? Maybe an owner who prizes owning big locos, with consideration for long term accommodation coming a distant second.

From what I’m told, the owner was told to remove the 9F from Wensleydale because it was taking up valuable siding space without either a coherent plan for restoration (or any sign of one) or a willingness to pay an appropriate storage fee.

 

[Enthusiast]

I was astounded when I saw the photo of 92219 in this month's Railway Magazine. Looking at this series of photographs of the loco:

92219

92219 was built at Swindon in January 1960 and spent all of its working life under BR ownership based at Cardiff. It moved from Cardiff Canton to Cardiff East Dock a month before the former depot c…

preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com

It looked its best in July 1989, following a "cosmetic" restoration. It has spent 58 years out in the open and all that has happened in that time is that it has been shunted around the country, being foisted onto sites willing to accommodate it until they needed the space, whilst no doubt being relieved of some of its components here and there. I think it's a good bet to say that it will never be restored. It is missing its tender, connecting rods and almost all the other components of the motion. No doubt there's a lot of other parts missing which cannot be readily noticed.

Everything cannot be preserved. There are examples of 9Fs in full working order and others that have run since withdrawal and are waiting their turn for overhaul. I believe that the future of this locomotive lies in one of only two directions: it will either steadily rust away, every time it is moved being a little less onerous because of the reduction in weight, ultimately the owners (whoever they are by then) will be able to pack what's left into three tea chests and load them into a Transit van. Or the owners will run out of places willing to store 90 tons of rusting metal (seemingly without payment from what I've read) and they will either have to put it in their back garden or have it cut up.

They should bite the bullet, salvage anything of value which might be useful to owners of operational 9Fs, and put the remains of the locomotive out of its misery under the cutter's torch.

 

[yoyothehobo]

i remember following this over the A66 when it got moved from Kirkby Stephen. In a single lane contraflow with a tractor unit on the front and one pushing on the back. I dread to think how much that cost to shunt 90ish tonnes of rust about.

 

[Dougal2345]

They should bite the bullet, salvage anything of value which might be useful to owners of operational 9Fs, and put the remains of the locomotive out of its misery under the cutter's torch.

I'm sure the owners will thank you for your advice, but frankly if they're happy with the current situation of gradual decay and expense, who are we here to say they're wrong? It's not our money.

Your suggested course of action is irreversible, whereas the current course is not (however unlikely it may be that restoration occurs).

 

[Alanko]

I'm sure the owners will thank you for your advice, but frankly if they're happy with the current situation of gradual decay and expense, who are we here to say they're wrong? It's not our money.

Preservation types never seem to like having their plans or work questioned or challenged, so nothing new there.

 

[Richard Scott]

Preservation types never seem to like having their plans or work questioned or challenged, so nothing new there.

No, because often people who challenge it aren't prepared to put their hands in their pockets or role up their sleeves and get stuck in. Both necessary for a successful restoration and yes, I have been involved with a restoration of a locomotive (admittedly a diesel).

 

[D Williams]

I was astounded when I saw the photo of 92219 in this month's Railway Magazine. Looking at this series of photographs of the loco:

92219

92219 was built at Swindon in January 1960 and spent all of its working life under BR ownership based at Cardiff. It moved from Cardiff Canton to Cardiff East Dock a month before the former depot c…

preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com

It looked its best in July 1989, following a "cosmetic" restoration. It has spent 58 years out in the open and all that has happened in that time is that it has been shunted around the country, being foisted onto sites willing to accommodate it until they needed the space, whilst no doubt being relieved of some of its components here and there. I think it's a good bet to say that it will never be restored. It is missing its tender, connecting rods and almost all the other components of the motion. No doubt there's a lot of other parts missing which cannot be readily noticed.

Everything cannot be preserved. There are examples of 9Fs in full working order and others that have run since withdrawal and are waiting their turn for overhaul. I believe that the future of this locomotive lies in one of only two directions: it will either steadily rust away, every time it is moved being a little less onerous because of the reduction in weight, ultimately the owners (whoever they are by then) will be able to pack what's left into three tea chests and load them into a Transit van. Or the owners will run out of places willing to store 90 tons of rusting metal (seemingly without payment from what I've read) and they will either have to put it in their back garden or have it cut up.

They should bite the bullet, salvage anything of value which might be useful to owners of operational 9Fs, and put the remains of the locomotive out of its misery under the cutter's torch.

Every so often , like a breath of fresh air, someone demonstrates a grasp of reality. The railway preservation world is littered with old men's pipe dreams that will become someone else's problem.

 

[Dougal2345]

Reading recent replies, I am reminded of a letter published in a railway magazine on 01/04/197x, as follows:

SIR - I was distressed to see the picture of Woodham's Scrapyard, published in your February number. Depicting a large number of rusting hulks of locomotives, it shows that Mr Woodham clearly does not know his business, and has overstretched himself by taking on too many wagons to scrap, leaving him unable to clear his yard of these locomotives.

Although some might say what Mr Woodham does with his property is his own affair, I do not agree, and feel it is incumbent on me to offer this advice: Mr Woodham, if you are unable to get those locomotives cut, you will continue to cause great distress to the rail enthusiasts of Tunbridge Wells and similar environs, when further photographs of your yard are published. Therefore it is plain as a pikestaff that you should immediately have them transferred to another scrapping facility where they can be dispatched with all due alacrity. Yours -

 

[Enthusiast]

Reading recent replies, I am reminded of a letter published in a railway magazine on 01/04/197x, as follows:

SIR - I was distressed to see the picture of Woodham's Scrapyard, published in your February number. Depicting a large number of rusting hulks of locomotives, etc...

Yes but that was 50 years ago and Mr Woodham had only been in possession of the locomotives for perhaps five or ten years. Furthermore, it was never his intention to restore any of them. He was only interested in realising their scrap value and I believe the asking price for those which were sold to the heritage movement was just that - and it saved him the trouble of cutting them up. Of course heritage railways have to be extremely thankful for Mr Woodham's apparent ineptitude because had he been more efficient in dispatching them they would have nothing like the stock of steam locomotives which they enjoy today.

But this is different. This 9F has never enjoyed any TLC but has simply been left in the open to rot and be pillaged. There has never been a realistic plan to restore it and the current owners seem content to simply shift it around the country, leaving it to further decay until those accommodating it get cheesed off. There is nothing iconic about it; it is not unique, it is not the first or last of its class to be produced; it holds no records; there is nothing to distinguish it from any of the other 250 9Fs that were built. Of course it is the owners' privilege to do with it as they wish. But I'm struggling to understand their motives.

 

[Richard Scott]

But this is different. This 9F has never enjoyed any TLC but has simply been left in the open to rot and be pillaged. There has never been a realistic plan to restore it and the current owners seem content to simply shift it around the country, leaving it to further decay until those accommodating it get cheesed off. There is nothing iconic about it; it is not unique, it is not the first or last of its class to be produced; it holds no records; there is nothing to distinguish it from any of the other 250 9Fs that were built. Of course it is the owners' privilege to do with it as they wish. But I'm struggling to understand their motives.

Sometimes the owner doesn't have resources or will to restore a loco but won't let it go either. I'm sure 76077 was in a similar predicament until the owner was persuaded to allow others to oversee its restoration.
It may take a few like-minded individuals who want to see 92219 running to come up with a serious plan and approach the owners but that may not happen anytime soon.

 

[Wynd]

Cold hard analysis aside, a couple of small interjections, if I may.

Should the requisite resources be found at hand, Aviemore have demonstrated, multiple times no less, the competence to restore locomotives to a very high standard. Yes, they were more complete than this one, but none the less, engineering capability is there.

It is a shame that this particular 9F is yet to see significant overhaul, but frames, wheels, and a boiler are very expensive items to procure now. A shell of a loco it may be, but it is still far further along than if one were starting from scratch.

Should there be any desire to restore it to running condition in the future, the justification for cutting it up, is highly questionable.

Scrap is what, £150/tonne?

That wouldn't even get you one driving wheelset when starting from scratch.

Economic reality works both ways.

At some point in the future, Aviemore may well need an additional large loco when running to Grantown, and the pool of large machines is not a deep one. Particularly not at the kind of prices this 9F would retail for.

Is this a long term play, if it is, it makes sense as a decade long restoration is probably the right kind of timeline for future MPD requirements.

 

[D Williams]

Cold hard analysis aside, a couple of small interjections, if I may.

Should the requisite resources be found at hand, Aviemore have demonstrated, multiple times no less, the competence to restore locomotives to a very high standard. Yes, they were more complete than this one, but none the less, engineering capability is there.

It is a shame that this particular 9F is yet to see significant overhaul, but frames, wheels, and a boiler are very expensive items to procure now. A shell of a loco it may be, but it is still far further along than if one were starting from scratch.

Should there be any desire to restore it to running condition in the future, the justification for cutting it up, is highly questionable.

Scrap is what, £150/tonne?

That wouldn't even get you one driving wheelset when starting from scratch.

Economic reality works both ways.

At some point in the future, Aviemore may well need an additional large loco when running to Grantown, and the pool of large machines is not a deep one. Particularly not at the kind of prices this 9F would retail for.

Is this a long term play, if it is, it makes sense as a decade long restoration is probably the right kind of timeline for future MPD requirements.

Well, if you are talking economic reality then hiring in is the way forward. The amount of work and expense required to return this one to working order would be crippling to the railway. From their point of view it should not be worth a pot of paint.

 

[Wynd]

It depends on the time horizon.

Hiring is a good stop gap if a railway is short on motive power.

If long term strategy dictates a 20-30-40 year timeframe for a second heavy loco, hiring is a poor use of precious capital.

How much are hiring fees for a heavy loco per annum? It has to be in to 5 figures surely?

If the railway were to chip away at the 9f for the next 15 years, in the end they have an asset on the books, and can spread the cost of restoration in to manageable annual chunks that wont cripple the balance sheet.

Hiring is money out the door, never to be seen again. And no asset on the books.

 

[yoyothehobo]

It depends on the time horizon.

Hiring is a good stop gap if a railway is short on motive power.

If long term strategy dictates a 20-30-40 year timeframe for a second heavy loco, hiring is a poor use of precious capital.

How much are hiring fees for a heavy loco per annum? It has to be in to 5 figures surely?

If the railway were to chip away at the 9f for the next 15 years, in the end they have an asset on the books, and can spread the cost of restoration in to manageable annual chunks that wont cripple the balance sheet.

Hiring is money out the door, never to be seen again. And no asset on the books.

I guess on the flip side though, the cost to restore a loco is large and you dont get anything out of it for 15 years+ then is it really helping the cause? The cheapest way to run trains is not to have any at all.

The use of the loco is entirely up to its owner as if it hadnt been bought, it by rights would already be a tin can.

 

[Wynd]

I guess on the flip side though, the cost to restore a loco is large and you dont get anything out of it for 15 years+ then is it really helping the cause? The cheapest way to run trains is not to have any at all.

The use of the loco is entirely up to its owner as if it hadnt been bought, it by rights would already be a tin can.

One way of viewing it is that you are buying future traction and subsequently revenue.

Or should that say, investing in the prospect of future revenue.

I don't know the particulars on any ownership, or putative future plans for thee loco.

 

[xotGD]

There must be plenty of steam locos in "static exhibit" condition that would be much cheaper to bring back into service than this pile of rusty metal. Bigger bang for fewer bucks.

 

[trebor79]

Yes but that was 50 years ago and Mr Woodham had only been in possession of the locomotives for perhaps five or ten years. Furthermore, it was never his intention to restore any of them. He was only interested in realising their scrap value and I believe the asking price for those which were sold to the heritage movement was just that - and it saved him the trouble of cutting them up. Of course heritage railways have to be extremely thankful for Mr Woodham's apparent ineptitude because had he been more efficient in dispatching them they would have nothing like the stock of steam locomotives which they enjoy today.

It wasn't ineptitude, well perhaps slightly. At the same time BR was scrapping steam locos, it was also scrapping many thousands of surplus waggons. Wood hams found it was far cheaper to cut a waggon, tonne for tonne, than a locomotive, so they only cut locos when they ran out of waggons to keep them busy.
The slight ineptitude I guess was buying so many locos and having all that capital tied up whilst busy scrapping waggons, but I guess the locos served as a "strategic reserve" or work during the lulls in waggon scrapping, and perhaps they didn't expect to be scrapping so many waggons. They did actually cut some locos periodically.

 

[Trainlog]

Its easy to dismiss the overhaul as 'it'll never happen' and it does tend to remind me of the Thornbury saga of last summer. The thing is with the Barry scrapyard wrecks in the 21st century is the fact that the owners keep them in a sense of limbo with the main attitude of 'i'll get round to it someday' when asked but at the same time a lot of owners will also hate the idea of selling off the loco to a new owner or society.

Personally, if the owner wants to move it to Strathspey and overhaul it then it would be great to see it in steam rather than rusting in a siding - however he has to have a good strategy around doing the overhaul, but to be fair there are already some good things going for the loco.

1. It will be the only 9f in Scotland and will join a good fleet on the Strathspey which has a healthy amount of locos atm (no large amounts of surplus locos especially with many not have steamed in 25 years on the site and not a line that if one loco fails the whole line has to find and hire a new loco in last minute).
2. A lot of 9fs are currently undergoing overhauls at the moment so its an opportunity for some new parts to be machined in a batch load.
3. Though this one might not be a good argument atm but the general public is interested in large locos and the 9fs where known for their power and occasionally their speed - though that one is rather irrelevant in preservation.

Providing that the owner keeps a sustained amount of funding for the loco - and to provide good opportunities for enthusiasts to join in with funding or restoring the loco i reckon it has a good future ahead of it. We have to remember that in the past decade we have seen many Barry scrapyard locos from Halls to BR Standard 5mts return to steam for the first time in preservation and are helping their respective lines.

 

[JKF]

I saw this at Butterly about 15 years ago. Did it also have a spell at Shillingstone on the S&DJR or was that another hulk I saw there? It would be interesting to see a list of where it had been and on what dates, might be the most travelled unrestored loco out there. I guess Allelys have made a decent wedge out of this travelling roadshow.

 

[Cowley]

I suppose the thing about giving up on the idea of restoring it, stripping it and then selling the parts off is that you’ve got to find buyers for those parts, and if there are no buyers then you’ve still got to store those parts somewhere anyway, at least currently it’s all in one piece/place.

I do agree that it’s unlikely to ever run again though, I think that time has run out on some of these peripheral Barry wrecks that are still floating around with no proper plan to restore them.

 

[JKF]

At least one Barry wreck should be preserved as a wreck, maybe at the NRM or a museum nearer to Barry, it would tell a good story.

 

[Trainlog]

At least one Barry wreck should be preserved as a wreck, maybe at the NRM or a museum nearer to Barry, it would tell a good story.

Funny you say that. The Barry tourist railway steam museum is doing that with 9f 92245 on their line to show what a Barry wreck would look like.

 

[Harvester]

I saw this at Butterly about 15 years ago. Did it also have a spell at Shillingstone on the S&DJR or was that another hulk I saw there? It would be interesting to see a list of where it had been and on what dates, might be the most travelled unrestored loco out there. I guess Allelys have made a decent wedge out of this travelling roadshow.

It moved to Barry in October 1965 and remained there almost 20 years until May 1985. After purchase (minus tender) and removal from Barry, it has been in store at:

Buxton 1985-1989
Butterley 1989-2012
Kirkby Stephen 2012-2014
Wensleydale Railway 2014-2020
Tebay 2020-2023
Strathspey Railway May 2023- ????

Suppose there is always some remote hope that a serious plan, with the necessary finance can be put in place for it’s restoration. I can think of two locos that were in similar, if not worse Barry condition that have been restored to steam (King 6023 and Jubilee 45699).

 

[Marmaduke]

I think that baton could be passed to 37042 on the Eden Valley railway. A curio as it is on full and frank public display, is sporting EWS livery, is a split headcode box machine and looks very rough at the moment. It garners a lot of intrigue online as I see photos of it posted every few weeks.

People aren't as phased by Barry-grade steam locos for some reason. Until the cutter's torch appears...


Why do heritage railways struggle to say 'no' when large, obviously basket-case projects are 'offered' to live on their line? This 9F will either take up valuable shed space or go to die in a scrap siding. Strathspey have enough scrap in various sidings already.

37042 at the Eden Valley Railway happens to be owned by the guy who owns the 9F that's recently gone to the Strathspey Railway. 37042 is nothing but a rusting shell, with the best parts having been ripped out on an annual regular basis. Seems there are those who see it as a bit of a "pocket money" bank!!
Like the 9F, 37042 is unlikely to be restored and is taking up valuable space next to the old crane on the EVR.
What amazes me is how the owners of such wrecks manage to get away with basing their loco's on railways.
Surely the prerequisite questions from any HR should be.

1. What are your plans?
2. What is your anticipated time scale for restoration
3. Proof of funds?
4. You must sign a contract for said loco, including support restoration costs [Electricity / Water usage / facilities]

 

[Dougal2345]

37042 at the Eden Valley Railway happens to be owned by the guy who owns the 9F that's recently gone to the Strathspey Railway. 37042 is nothing but a rusting shell, with the best parts having been ripped out on an annual regular basis. Seems there are those who see it as a bit of a "pocket money" bank!!
Like the 9F, 37042 is unlikely to be restored and is taking up valuable space next to the old crane on the EVR.
What amazes me is how the owners of such wrecks manage to get away with basing their loco's on railways.
Surely the prerequisite questions from any HR should be.

1. What are your plans?
2. What is your anticipated time scale for restoration
3. Proof of funds?
4. You must sign a contract for said loco, including support restoration costs [Electricity / Water usage / facilities]

Well that's surely the business of the EVR.

You say it's taking up 'valuable space' but in fact that space might not be particularly valuable - we (well, I at any rate) have no knowledge of the value of that space.

Isn't it up to the EVR to decide whether it wants to store the loco.? And similarly, it's up to them how much they charge, if anything, for the privilege.

It seems this thread has gone from telling an owner what he should do with his loco (ie scrap it) to telling heritage railways how they should manage their space (ie don't store locos being used as Christmas trees).

The ownership and storage of unrestored locos are not something that I let worry me, as I don't own any locos, and have no financial interest in any heritage railway.

If I had some financial interest in the EVR, perhaps then I might feel I should look into the matter, form an opinion and express it within that organisation.

 

[yoyothehobo]

If the loco is being stored in a siding at a heritage railway, who are getting a nominal amount of income for storage charges then it is probably the best situation.

I personally quite like seeing the "back of the shed" line and it is rarely in obvious view from the main station on lines.

 

[DarloRich]

How does one go about funding such a big job if you are not "independently wealthy"?

 

[D Williams]

Buy lots of tickets for the National Lottery? There's about as much chance as there is of this one steaming again.