Standard reasons given for delays and cancellations

[Western 52]

Looking at the various on-line rail information sources, it seems that when trains are delayed or cancelled, there are “standard” reasons that will appear. Some of the ones I’ve seen today are:-

• due to the train operator’s request
• due to an issue with the train crew
• due to a delay not investigated
• due to a problem with the train

There are many more in regular use of course, including the now infamous resource availability! Some make little sense – a few days ago I saw a cancellation due to severe flooding, when there was no flooding on that train’s route (other trains seemed to be running fine). Another one I saw was due to the signalbox not being open – but other trains were running.

So my questions are:-

Is there a national standard agreed database of reasons in use by Network Rail and TOCs?

Who assigns a reason to a delayed or cancelled train? Is it just a case of finding a reason which is the “best fit” if no standard reason really applies?

Is there flexibility to add a new reason if required?

 

[flitwickbeds]

AFAIK there is no flexibility to add a custom reasons to the system, but there are plenty to choose from which should cover every situation (or very close to it)

Darwin:Late Running reason codes and text - Open Rail Data Wiki

wiki.openraildata.com

Regarding your examples, the flooding or closed signal box might have been on a previous journey for that sake train or driver.

 

[Llandudno]

Or TfW’s ‘Resource Availability’ =. Load of corporate Bullxxxx!

 

[D6130]

A common one used by Northern - especially during the leaf fall season - is "....due to a larger than usual number of trains awaiting repair".

 

[01d-and]

I can remember waiting for my delayed incoming train and being informed of the reason for the delay ,then travelling to the next station call only to hear a totally different reason being announced on the station loudspeaker for the late arrival of my train . . . . .

 

[The North Briton]

Some information systems will allow you to create a custom reason but this will be linked back to one of the official reasons. For example, 'floodlight failure at a level crossing' could be linked back to 'a problem with a level crossing'.
That will only get you so far, because there are some fairly common reasons for delay for which there is NO official reason! I give you: 'signaller error' or 'a scheduling error' for starters....

 

[Horizon22]

So my questions are:-

Is there a national standard agreed database of reasons in use by Network Rail and TOCs?

Who assigns a reason to a delayed or cancelled train? Is it just a case of finding a reason which is the “best fit” if no standard reason really applies?

Is there flexibility to add a new reason if required?

1. Yes, there is a list of reasons already defined in the CIS and you can only select from one of those. That being said, that number is well over 800 (there are lot of variations on reasons such as "...earlier today" or "...earlier in this train's journey"

2. These will normally be CIS teams at a control centre. They can also be done locally at select locations (normally terminal stations). They can be changed as well, which is where you can occasionally get conflicts or confusion as to the cause.

3. No there isn't unless senior management at a TOC request it. But as stated above, pretty much every eventuality is catered for (honestly there's some ridiculous sounding ones in the list!). Most of the time even if it is a rather 'quirky' reason, a more generic reason can be given. For example 696 is delayed to animals on the railway, but 697-699 lists specific animals (cattle, horses, sheep) & arguably isn't completely necessary.

 

[47434]

A common one used by Northern - especially during the leaf fall season - is "....due to a larger than usual number of trains awaiting repair".

At least it is true given the great numbers of units requiring tyre turning as a result of slides

 

[IanXC]

The OPs examples seem to suggest they have been looking at Open Data fed from Trust as well as what is shown in CIS and these are two entirely separate systems and lists of reasons.

The Trust reasons are listed here: https://wiki.openraildata.com/index.php?title=Delay_Attribution_Guide

 

[Llanigraham]

Or TfW’s ‘Resource Availability’ =. Load of corporate Bullxxxx!

Why is it, when it is well known that we are in the middle of pandemic and TfW, and lots of other operators, have staff off sick with Covid?

 

[Llandudno]

Why is it, when it is well known that we are in the middle of pandemic and TfW, and lots of other operators, have staff off sick with Covid?

It’s the phrase that grates with me, why can’t they be honest with the customers and say:

Shortage of train crew or Staff sickness

 

[XAM2175]

It’s the phrase that grates with me, why can’t they be honest with the customers and say:

Shortage of train crew or Staff sickness

Crew were getting grief over it, so the unions asked that TfW not use those reasons in public communications.

 

[kels430]

I can remember waiting for my delayed incoming train and being informed of the reason for the delay ,then travelling to the next station call only to hear a totally different reason being announced on the station loudspeaker for the late arrival of my train . . . . .

This is something that really annoys me and I think most passengers would be more understanding if they were given the correct reason for a delay rather than different reasons for the same delay. I’ve been on many trains where the onboard announcements give a completely different reason for a delay to the TOCs website.

 

[Spartacus]

This is something that really annoys me and I think most passengers would be more understanding if they were given the correct reason for a delay rather than different reasons for the same delay. I’ve been on many trains where the onboard announcements give a completely different reason for a delay to the TOCs website.

Of course sometimes the reason for the delay will change due to, for instance, more information coming to light. What might originally go down to a door fault might quickly be changed to vandalism when it's found someone wedged a coke can in the door. On other occasions it might be that the train's initially delayed by one thing, but then further delayed by something else, with that second cause becoming the greatest cause of delay, I wonder how some systems deal with that, then at other times you have two different incidents causing the same amount of delay to a service. Some times it'll be open to interpretation. Sometimes it might be announced you're late due to following a late running service, others it might say you've been delayed because of whatever delayed that late running service. And sometimes you do get what can only be described as B.S., usually blaming NR or another TOC or FOC for the delay when they delay is down to the TOC you're travelling with, but most of the time any discrepancies are just because things tend to be a bit fluid, or due to multiple causes of delay.

 

[Matt_pool]

The TfW Liverpool to Chester/Wrexham service has seen cancellations over the past couple of days "...because of a problem currently under investigation".

And Northern's favourite at the moment is "This is due to a member of on-train staff being taken ill".

 

[Capvermell]

Surely the most standard reason given for a service you are currently travelling on being held up and delayed is that of having to wait at a red signal until that signal changes without ever being given any clue by the person making the announcement as to why that signal might be red....................

 

[py_megapixel]

AFAIK there is no flexibility to add a custom reasons to the system, but there are plenty to choose from which should cover every situation (or very close to it)

Darwin:Late Running reason codes and text - Open Rail Data Wiki

wiki.openraildata.com

FWIW I think codes 100 to 187 are legacy ones which are no longer used, having been superseded by others.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Surely the most standard reason given for a service you are currently travelling on being held up and delayed is that of having to wait at a red signal until that signal changes without ever being given any clue by the person making the announcement as to why that signal might be red....................

That is surely just intended as a reassuring / 'holding' announcement to explain that the train hasn't just broken down in the middle of nowhere, driver suddenly taken ill, etc. Either the train will just move off shortly afterwards (so there's no big deal) or, if the stop becomes extended, the reason will be given as soon as it is known (e.g. "major overhead line damage just reported by the train in front so we are likely to be stopped for an extended period" or whatever).

 

[Parallel]

FWIW I think codes 100 to 187 are legacy ones which are no longer used, having been superseded by others.

I think Greater Anglia still use the old reasons - That may be because their system is TTS. When a Thameslink train is cancelled from Cambridge it is able to announce the new delay reasons, which I assume have been assigned by GTR.

TfW really should really request ‘resource availability’ is added and recorded as a full reason. I think a few more industry-wide reasons have been added in the last couple of years, such as ‘a short notice change to the timetable’ and ‘a derailment within the depot’ which I’ve heard on GWR so it must be possible.

 

[Spartacus]

Surely the most standard reason given for a service you are currently travelling on being held up and delayed is that of having to wait at a red signal until that signal changes without ever being given any clue by the person making the announcement as to why that signal might be red....................

Chances are if you're approaching a station, unless it's an infrastructure fault, the reason won't yet be attributed, so won't be known by anyone on the train.

 

[Capvermell]

Chances are if you're approaching a station, unless it's an infrastructure fault, the reason won't yet be attributed, so won't be known by anyone on the train.

As far as I can tell despite all the supposed great progress in signal automation and upgrading associated with for instance the signal work allegedly being done during the current two week long blockade of all Southern trains running in to London Victoria a great many of these unnecessary waits at red signals are associated with train paths to further down the line having not yet been set by the signal control room before the arrival of the relevant train at the relevant signal. Hence the train concerned is backed up at that red signal until the relevant signal room or signalman sets that train path, perhaps after they have made themselves their next cup of tea........

Hence many trains waiting at red signals seems to be caused by train pathing still not being sufficiently automated or pre-planned even though of course some red signal delays are caused by men working on the track, youths walking on the line or congestion further up the line caused by a defective train or a passenger on the line. However the information that a train is not proceeding any further just because it is at a red signal is inherently unsatisfactory given that it was self evident all along that was the case but the information is more or less useless without further information as to the cause of the signal being at red rather than at green, amber or double amber..............

 

[Spartacus]

As far as I can tell despite all the supposed great progress in signal automation and upgrading associated with for instance the signal work allegedly being done during the current two week long blockade of all Southern trains running in to London Victoria a great many of these unnecessary waits at red signals are associated with train paths to further down the line having not yet been set by the signal control room before the arrival of the relevant train at the relevant signal. Hence the train concerned is backed up at that red signal until the relevant signal room or signalman sets that train path, perhaps after they have made themselves their next cup of tea........

Hence many trains waiting at red signals seems to be caused by train pathing still not being sufficiently automated or pre-planned even though of course some red signal delays are caused by men working on the track, youths walking on the line or congestion further up the line caused by a defective train or a passenger on the line. However the information that a train is not proceeding any further just because it is at a red signal is inherently unsatisfactory given that it was self evident all along that was the case but the information is more or less useless without further information as to the cause of the signal being at red rather than at green, amber or double amber..............

Any chance of an example? If it was really signallers making a brew we'd be seeing lots of O codes, which we're not.

Chances are the announcement will serve to reassure at least passengers on board that the train hasn't failed or that there isn't some other serious problem that may take a long time to rectify, especially when stood between stations when it seems people are shockingly getting increasingly likely just to get off and walk of their own accord if they think they'll be held longer than they could walk the distance they need to go.

 

[Capvermell]

Any chance of an example? If it was really signallers making a brew we'd be seeing lots of O codes, which we're not.

Chances are the announcement will serve to reassure at least passengers on board that the train hasn't failed or that there isn't some other serious problem that may take a long time to rectify, especially when stood between stations when it seems people are shockingly getting increasingly likely just to get off and walk of their own accord if they think they'll be held longer than they could walk the distance they need to go.

How will these passengers get off and walk if held for a lengthy period at a red signal without any announcements, explanation or information whatsoever from a certain profile of totally uncommunicative monosyllabic train driver when all remaining slam door stock (now confined only to heritage railways who's customers are presumably deemed more intelligent and less interested in committing suicide than rail travellers in the population at large and especially beered up groups of football fans) disappeared from the network somewhere around the turn of the millennium.

Although most automatic sliding door train stock does normally have a way to manually release the doors it usually requires some form of glass to be broken to operate it and is also accompanied by extensive threats of fines and prosecution if used maliciously. And even though I am an extremely impatient passenger with Aspergers who absolutely loathes being held at red signals on trains for long periods without any form of explanation (which does happen with some drivers who simply don't give a 4X for keeping passengers informed) even I would not pursue such a radical and dangerous course of action.

 

[Spartacus]

How will these passengers get off and walk if held for a lengthy period at a red signal without any announcements, explanation or information whatsoever from a certain profile of totally uncommunicative monosyllabic train driver when all remaining slam door stock (now confined only to heritage railways who's customers are presumably deemed more intelligent and less interested in committing suicide than rail travellers in the population at large and especially beered up groups of football fans) disappeared from the network somewhere around the turn of the millennium.

Although most automatic sliding door train stock does normally have a way to manually release the doors it usually requires some form of glass to be broken to operate it and is also accompanied by extensive threats of fines and prosecution if used maliciously. And even though I am an extremely impatient passenger with Aspergers who absolutely loathes being held at red signals on trains for long periods without any form of explanation (which does happen with some drivers who simply don't give a 4X for keeping passengers informed) even I would not pursue such a radical and dangerous course of action.

They break or move the panel, pull the egress and go. That simple, they don't care about anything other than themselves. It's why it's become standard practice in many areas that during disruption trains are held in stations wherever possible so people don't decamp onto the track.

 

[ComUtoR]

Hence the train concerned is backed up at that red signal until the relevant signal room or signalman sets that train path, perhaps after they have made themselves their next cup of tea........

Or they were in the loo.

Hence many trains waiting at red signals seems to be caused by train pathing still not being sufficiently automated or pre-planned even though of course some red signal delays are caused by men working on the track, youths walking on the line or congestion further up the line caused by a defective train or a passenger on the line.

Or broken signals, track circuit failures, delayed services. Men working on the track isn't an issue. We just blow the horn and they move out the way.

(...........................................................) red rather than at green, amber or double amber..............

What's an amber ?

(which does happen with some drivers who simply don't give a 4X for keeping passengers informed)

Its not because we don't care. It could simply be a matter of not knowing or understanding that some passengers see those kind of announcements as 'unsatisfactory and generally self evident in any case'. Therefore, we choose not to upset the little darlings.

 

[Capvermell]

Its not because we don't care. It could simply be a matter of not knowing or understanding that some passengers see those kind of announcements as 'unsatisfactory and generally self evident in any case'. Therefore, we choose not to upset the little darlings.

Wrong as some drivers go almost too far giving a running commentary all through their journeys even when nothing is wrong with the service whilst others sit there not using the PA and giving no information whatsoever even after a long blood pressure rising delay to passengers between stations.

So taking a very good driver I was on a service from London Bridge to Dorking late last Sunday afternoon where the original Electrostar train was for some reason not there on Platform 15 where it was scheduled to depart from and whatever the type of train is now mainly only used on journeys to Epsom or Sutton (that has no loos and is a lot older and is not an Electrostar but has some number series) was sitting in the platform. Driver due to take the service turns up and comments that its not the proper train but checks with control and is allowed to take this train. Then because we set off 7 or 8 minutes late he tells us what time we will get to the first station on route in about 20 minutes time (think it was Hackbridge but could be wrong) and then throughout the journey approaching every station tells us in an animated and interested fashion what station we are now arriving at. I think he to some extent bothered making the announcements because the train was not following a regular route that most passengers would be familiar with as a result of the London Bridge diversions.

Bad drivers on the other hand almost almost never use the PA system other than in the event of a long unexpected delay or when a train terminates at a station because they are miserable, moody, introverted so and sos who clearly don't like their passengers or communicating with them in any fashion. And as we the passengers never get the opportunity to rate each train crew on each journey in terms of a satisfaction score inevitably there is precisely no incentive whatsoever for the minimum effort unhelpful and uncommunicative drivers (on DOO trains) or train supervisors or guards (where present) to do a better job in communicating with their customers.

 

[ComUtoR]

And as we the passengers never get the opportunity to rate each train crew on each journey in terms of a satisfaction score

Use Twitter, I generally get an A++ for my services (sometimes a double smiley). There is also the National Rail Passenger Survey (link HERE) or you could speak to the Driver when you get off and either say 'thanks' or call them a 'miserable git'

inevitably there is precisely no incentive whatsoever for the minimum effort unhelpful and uncommunicative drivers (on DOO trains)

There are, of course, various Driver monitoring systems in place so anyone getting 3/10 on ***Twitter will probably be **investigated and any Driver found not making announcements via the OTDR, during an FDA, or a '****rear cab ride along' should provide the required incentive.

There is, again something very self evident, professional pride. When passengers are polite and friendly then I tend to respond in kind.

Down in ^DOO land the machine does all the talking for me so all the relevant information is passed to the passenger in a clear and concise manner. Sadly, down in DOO land (where I live) If I get an ^^Amber or Amber/Amber indication, I shouldn't make announcements whilst on the move because I get told off.


KEY
****known as unannounced monitoring
*insert preferred insult
^a land flowing with milk and honey
**or tea and buiscuits
***or directly reported
^^probably yellow or another colour

As per forum rules
FDA - Formal Driving Assessment
OTDR - On Train Data Recorder
DOO - Driver Only Operation

 

[Spartacus]

Bad drivers on the other hand almost almost never use the PA system other than in the event of a long unexpected delay or when a train terminates at a station because they are miserable, moody, introverted so and sos who clearly don't like their passengers or communicating with them in any fashion. And as we the passengers never get the opportunity to rate each train crew on each journey in terms of a satisfaction score inevitably there is precisely no incentive whatsoever for the minimum effort unhelpful and uncommunicative drivers (on DOO trains) or train supervisors or guards (where present) to do a better job in communicating with their customers.

Trouble is there's be just as many passengers who think that this is the good driver, not making announcements without good reason. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They break or move the panel, pull the egress and go. That simple, they don't care about anything other than themselves. It's why it's become standard practice in many areas that during disruption trains are held in stations wherever possible so people don't decamp onto the track.

Good if that is the outcome. If it is at all possible, holding in a station with doors (one local door, if it is a long train) released is the best plan, then if anyone does want to give up and make their own arrangements they can. Further to that it makes any official evacuation easier and safer.

Trouble is there's be just as many passengers who think that this is the good driver, not making announcements without good reason. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

Must admit I really dislike the way LNR guards in particular like waffling over the autoannouncer with the same information given less clearly.

 

[Capvermell]

Trouble is there's be just as many passengers who think that this is the good driver, not making announcements without good reason. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

Its probably a fine line as the service in question was a diverted one to Dorking starting from London Bridge rather than London Victoria so quite a few passengers might be genuinely confused early on in the journey about where the train stops next. Also we weren't even travelling on an Electrostar train as we should have been due to some further cock up or other by the train scheduling or planning department. Furthermore the driver in question was calm, neutral and extremely professional in his manner much like a good quality British Airways pilot (which he may aspire to become being a younger guy).

However on a trip from Horsham to Arundel we did have a woman train supervisor doing announcements throughout the journey who seems to have a failed calling as a Butlins Redcoat and her announcements did begin to grate and get annoying quite quickly with my good self to the extent I asked her if she always made her announcements (as though she was an episode of Hi-De-Hi) when she came down the train to check our tickets.